HBK vs Undertaker - is it to blame?

[repomark]

HBK vs Undertaker at Wrestlemania 25 was an instant classic, and widely acclaimed by fans and critics alike. It had emotional connection, drama, arguably the greatest false finish of all time and felt like two legends of the squared circle with a long history together delivering their masterpiece before our eyes.

But at what cost?

At the time Randy Orton - bitter about having to follow the match in a much maligned main event clash with Triple H - lamented that all HBK and Undertaker did was go out and kick out of each others’ finishers for 30mins. Whilst in my view he was wrong about the mania 25 match, his words were prophetic for a different reason.

We are now 13 years removed from the match, but it feels like pretty much every big match in WWE - and even many with lesser status - use it as the template on how to create a great match. Unfortunately they have taken Randy Orton’s definition - where simply spamming kicking out of finishers is seen as somehow creating audience investment and false finishes.

We got to the point where literally everyone kicked out of the first Attitude Adjustment John Cena hit - including on Raw. Even the Tombstone - which HBK had so iconically and unexpectedly kicked out of at Mania 25 - became diluted as they continually tried to recreate this moment at every Mania Taker wrestled at thereafter.

We all became conditioned to expect finishers to be kicked out of in big matches - to the point we were offended by the insult to our favourites when it only took one finisher to beat them. Dean Ambrose at Mania 32 being defeated by just one F5 is a good example of this - and I was as vocal as anyone at being enraged by it.

Yet the art of the false finish, and making someone look strong in defeat, has absolutely nothing to do with simply kicking out of finishers and never did. There is now a lost art in wwe of protecting finishing moves to the extent that simply avoiding it being used is a false finish or can be the narrative of the match. A good example is Batista v Triple H at Mania 21 where Batista avoided the Pedigree in a variety of ways but never kicked out of one.

The reason the kick outs worked at mania 25 - and especially the Tombstone kick out - is partly because of how protected the Tombstone was as a finish at that point. But more so than that it was because of the placement of the Tombstone in the story they were telling, and how it felt like the end of the match due to the way in which Undertaker finally snared HBK in the manoeuvre as Shawn attempted to skin the cat.

Now at times during big WWE matches the crowd switches off until the third finisher is hit because they know it’s not going to be the finish.

So how much is the current approach to WWE main events the fault of the match itself attaining an unassailable level of greatness? Or is it the fault of WWE in misinterpreting what made it great as Randy Orton did? It seems to me that to some extent it can be argued that the match did more harm than good in the long term.

Like the theme of the entrances on that fateful night, where there is light there is darkness.

[Jedi-El of Tomorrow]

It's not just WWE, it's all of wrestling.

Finishers don't matter anymore in wrestling. Every match needs multiple kickouts.

[rnrk supports BLM]

The "big matches consist of lots of finisher kickouts at 2.99 seconds" thing was already a frequently-mocked cliche years before this match. Undertaker's tombstone had been kicked out of a f***ton of times over the years, just like how Hogan slammed Andre before. The awe wasn't that Shawn kicked out, it's that they put together the match so expertly that they actually made people think for certain that tombstone spot was going to be the finish.

Mar 2, 2022 20:11:24 GMT -5 repomark said:

Randy Orton - bitter about having to follow the match in a much maligned main event clash with Triple H

DID YOU KNOW? The Cena/Edge/Big Show triple threat came between HBK/Undertaker and the main event and still received solid reactions.

[Mozenrath]

Honestly, it's less HBK and Undertaker, and more that copying "King's Road"-style matches if that's not what your wrestling ecosystem is built around can be an issue. Like, it made sense when AJPW, and then NOAH, would do it because a relatively small number of people at the top of the card interacted a lot, so the idea was that they'd have to keep escalating things because they'd wise up to each other's tactics. That's also how you'd get a bunch of variations on finishers, to make them harder to counter or avoid, or "super finishers" like the Burning Hammer.

Desperation kickouts being a thing is fine, but it's does get tiresome if it's overused or doesn't feel earned. It's also such a big roster that stepping on each others' toes happens a lot whenever people DO try to get fancy with it with too shallow of an understanding of how to do it correctly.

[Feyrhausen]

At Mania 19 it took 3 F5s to finish Kurt Angle, 3 Leg Drops to finish McMahon, 3 Rock Bottoms to finish Austin.

And 1 Pedigree with a long crawl before the pin to finish Booker. Because Triple Hs insecurity and racism.

[Clutchhausen]

Rofl f*** Orton for saying that. I can't wait til that stale, boring bitch retires.

[Starshine]

I'm sorry, but Taker/HBK overdelivering is not the reason people weren't into the slow, boring and uninspired Trips/Orton match number 'no-one gave a shit.'

The main problem with current day WWE is there's little to no reason to invest in stories, since the outcome often rendered redundant in pretty short order. So a good match without a good story behind it is a lot harder to invest in than one that isn't as technically interesting, but has more compelling story beats behind it. Finisher kick outs can be fine if most everyone watching is invested in the outcome. If they're not, it just comes off as overindulgent (also see Orton/Trips @ Mania 25).

[Mochi Lone Wolf]

Randy is an idiot. The reason nobody cared about his match with HHH is because it bored everyone to tears. That's on him and Hunter.

[Jedi-El of Tomorrow]

Mar 2, 2022 23:33:59 GMT -5 Mochi Lone Wolf said:

Randy is an idiot. The reason nobody cared about his match with HHH is because it bored everyone to tears. That's on him and Hunter.

Nah, it's on Vince. The match called for a no dq war. Talking weapons, fighting all over the arena, and run ins. Apparently that's what Orton and Triple H wanted the match to be, but it was a basic match with that stupid title can change hands on a dq stipulation.

[Cranjis McBasketball]

It's to blame for a few things. The "I can't believe he kicked out" face everyone has to do in every match now. The spamming of finishers. But not everything. That dude with the shocked look on his face when Taker lost is to blame for WWE panning to the crowd every 4 seconds. Aerosmith music videos are to blame for 987 camera cuts in a 6 second span.

[Deleted]

I enjoy finisher kickouts.

There was a time between 2005-2009 where NOBODY kicked out of a finisher unless it was Wrestlemania or something.

I hated that.

In Japanese Wrestling, they kick out of finishers all the time. Its what makes those matches 5 star classics. So I'm glad the USA promotions followed suit.

[Lizuka #BLM]

The Triple H / Orton storyline had a lot of problems but at the end of the day I think the biggest one is that they thought they were doing a story about a beloved hero conquering a despicable villain but what people actually wanted was for Doomsday to kill Superman.

[Oh Cry Me a Screwball]

Mar 2, 2022 23:43:01 GMT -5 Jedi-El of Tomorrow said:

Mar 2, 2022 23:33:59 GMT -5 Mochi Lone Wolf said:

Randy is an idiot. The reason nobody cared about his match with HHH is because it bored everyone to tears. That's on him and Hunter.

Nah, it's on Vince. The match called for a no dq war. Talking weapons, fighting all over the arena, and run ins. Apparently that's what Orton and Triple H wanted the match to be, but it was a basic match with that stupid title can change hands on a dq stipulation.

Bingo. This was a feud that had Orton attempt to cripple every single male member of the McMahon family, and then went onto both physically and sexually assault Stephanie in an attempt to get into Hunter's head, and then hid behind a mental illness to avoid professional consequence. This was a feud that had Triple H show up to Randy Orton's house to attack him and traumatize his family in the process.

Why the hell did they think anyone wanted to see a match where they had to follow rules and avoid doing their worst to their opponent that actively targeted their families? This was as big of a blood feud as there could have been that night, even accounting for a match on the undercard where an older brother implied he was responsible for a real-life house fire that rendered the younger brother temporarily homeless and killed his dog. There was no reason not to have a Street Fight or No Holds Barred match, especially since no other match that night really filled that void. Even the Hardy vs. Hardy Extreme Rules match I just mentioned seemed to be holding back and doing more of a spotfest with the TLC weapons, as opposed to working a more violent and vicious style that their feud called for, because a hypothetical Orton vs. Hunter street fight would have needed to resemble a dirty brawl between two enemies more than the Hardys match did.

[A Platypus Rave]

Mar 3, 2022 1:08:00 GMT -5 Oh Cry Me a Screwball said:

Mar 2, 2022 23:43:01 GMT -5 Jedi-El of Tomorrow said:

Nah, it's on Vince. The match called for a no dq war. Talking weapons, fighting all over the arena, and run ins. Apparently that's what Orton and Triple H wanted the match to be, but it was a basic match with that stupid title can change hands on a dq stipulation.

Bingo. This was a feud that had Orton attempt to cripple every single male member of the McMahon family, and then went onto both physically and sexually assault Stephanie in an attempt to get into Hunter's head, and then hid behind a mental illness to avoid professional consequence. This was a feud that had Triple H show up to Randy Orton's house to attack him and traumatize his family in the process.

Why the hell did they think anyone wanted to see a match where they had to follow rules and avoid doing their worst to their opponent that actively targeted their families? This was as big of a blood feud as there could have been that night, even accounting for a match on the undercard where an older brother implied he was responsible for a real-life house fire that rendered the younger brother temporarily homeless and killed his dog. There was no reason not to have a Street Fight or No Holds Barred match, especially since no other match that night really filled that void. Even the Hardy vs. Hardy Extreme Rules match I just mentioned seemed to be holding back and doing more of a spotfest with the TLC weapons, as opposed to working a more violent and vicious style that their feud called for, because a hypothetical Orton vs. Hunter street fight would have needed to resemble a dirty brawl between two enemies more than the Hardys match did.

even if it was a regular one on one match... like don't start the match with a f***ing collar and elbow tie up.

[Nosnorb]

Mar 3, 2022 2:52:05 GMT -5 A Platypus Rave said:

Mar 3, 2022 1:08:00 GMT -5 Oh Cry Me a Screwball said:

Bingo. This was a feud that had Orton attempt to cripple every single male member of the McMahon family, and then went onto both physically and sexually assault Stephanie in an attempt to get into Hunter's head, and then hid behind a mental illness to avoid professional consequence. This was a feud that had Triple H show up to Randy Orton's house to attack him and traumatize his family in the process.

Why the hell did they think anyone wanted to see a match where they had to follow rules and avoid doing their worst to their opponent that actively targeted their families? This was as big of a blood feud as there could have been that night, even accounting for a match on the undercard where an older brother implied he was responsible for a real-life house fire that rendered the younger brother temporarily homeless and killed his dog. There was no reason not to have a Street Fight or No Holds Barred match, especially since no other match that night really filled that void. Even the Hardy vs. Hardy Extreme Rules match I just mentioned seemed to be holding back and doing more of a spotfest with the TLC weapons, as opposed to working a more violent and vicious style that their feud called for, because a hypothetical Orton vs. Hunter street fight would have needed to resemble a dirty brawl between two enemies more than the Hardys match did.

even if it was a regular one on one match... like don't start the match with a f***ing collar and elbow tie up.

In that regard, some blame can definately be laid at the door of Trips. No matter the build of the match, he almost always wrestled his patented "BIGGEST BADASS EVUUURR-AH!" style and it could eat the other dude in the match up.

[thehottag]

Got to love the idea that we absolutely in no way can blame Triple H for being boring, no sir, we have to blame the thing that was good for overshadowing. This is like when WWE punishes someone for getting over without permission.

[repomark]

I absolutely agree Randy Orton was incorrect in his assessment of the Undertaker v HBK match and that his match with Triple H would have been deeply flawed irrespective of what came before it. I think what he said was sour grapes of the highest order and excuse searching for his match with Hunter woefully underdelivering.

It’s interesting some of the points that have been made around finishers being kicked out of in other promotions. I agree it is over done elsewhere as well, but at least there are exceptions to the rule such as the One Winged Angel that has never been kicked out of.

I am interested as to why the formula might work better in Japan but not WWE. I take the point about fewer guys meaning they interact more and having to escalate, but then if that were the case why does it not work when Roman kicks out of five F5s after facing Brock continually? And it certainly isn’t the same - but it is definitely worth exploring why not.

Re the Tombstone, the point was made that it had been kicked out of a lot before WM25. I don’t think it actually had been to be honest - certainly not since Taker became the dead man again at mania 20. Edge had kicked out of one at mania 24 - but that was after a long delay waiting for Little Naitch to run up the overly long Orlando aisle like the Ultimate Warrior. That’s the only time I can think of post WM20, and even before that was few and far between. I can think of Hogan at Survivor Series 91, Kane at WM14 and then some times when he became Biker taker and it wasn’t his primary finisher (eg Triple H at mania 17). It was as protected as any finisher.

That said, couldn’t agree more the reason the HBK kick out worked was more down to the placement of it in the match and the way the move was set up - it 100% felt like the finish.

[DZ: WF Legacy]

The finisher-fest no-sell kickout thing that all the supposed "great matches" have is one of my least favorite things about modern wrestling. The WM25 match was great, and so was the build, and so was the years of anticipation to see them finally clash once again after the Rumble encounter and because of their history together and status as legends. That match had such tremendous purpose; it was an epic encounter that deserved to be spectacular and unbelievable. When someone kicks out of a finisher, it should mean something. It happens so much now that wrestling feels like I'm watching a video game.

[msc]

If you want to blame someone for that in WWF, blame The Rock suggesting it for his WrestleMania 15 match with Austin. "I want to kick out of the Stunner, and I want you to be the first person to kick out of the Rock Bottom" as Austin later put it.

[spagett]

Mar 3, 2022 6:18:24 GMT -5 msc said:

If you want to blame someone for that in WWF, blame The Rock suggesting it for his WrestleMania 15 match with Austin. "I want to kick out of the Stunner, and I want you to be the first person to kick out of the Rock Bottom" as Austin later put it.

I think a Wrestlemania main event is fair enough to be kicking out of finishers. It's traditionally the biggest match of the year.