PPV Commentary teams, how were they chosen?

[jason1980s]

All these years later, it fascinates me the number of different commentary combs they had after Jesse left. It seems like Vince could never settle on a main team. Even Gorilla and Bobby, who were by far the best post-Jesse, didn't make every PPV together.

I know in the early days Gorilla apparently had a heart attack prior to the first Rumble, 88 and Jesse was a referee for Summerslam 1988. And of course, Wrestlemania 2 had to have different teams with the celebrities.

But especially in early 1990s it changed frequently. Vince tried Piper for a year, then Bobby and Gorilla got the last of 1991 and beginning of 1992 and then Vince and Bobby and then you had combos mostly with Vince being a part until finally it going to JR and King in late 1997.

Am I overthinking this (yes, of course) but it just fascinates me, especially since Vince is the owner. Like was he comfortable being on TV and not backstage during certain shows or did he just enjoy having a chance to be with the guys he surely respected like Bobby, Gorilla, Piper especially.

[Celexa Bliss 54]

I found WrestleMania VII to be the most interesting commentary situation. Gorilla and The Brain are the main team for most of the show, but Heenan was still an active manager at the time, so they had Jim Duggan on the call for the Rockers/Haku and Barbarian match, then Lord Alfred for the IC Title. But it shows you just how dedicated Vince was to the Heenan/Monsoon pairing at the time. They were joined by Piper for SummerSlam, but then for the rest of 1991 until SummerSlam 92, they were THE PPV broadcast team. I'm not sure, but I think SummerSlam was around the point Gorilla was transitioning away from being a full-time commentator and doing more backstage stuff? I know they had Radio WWF in 93/94, and he still did the weekend shows, but they brought in JR for WrestleMania IX and King of the Ring, before Vince took over again from SummerSlam until King of the Ring 94 (which was during the steroid trial). By the time I started watching, in 1995, Vince was the voice of the WWF.

As for why, I think he wanted to be the main narrator of the product, the person telling the audience who the good guys and bad guys were. It was jarring for me in 1996 when he started phasing himself off of commentary on Raw and they had JR, King and Kevin Kelly out there. I feel like the fake Razor and Diesel storyline was supposed to mark a transition from him being commentator to being the on-screen owner, but when it bombed, he came back to the announce desk. That's just MY opinion, btw, I have nothing to back it up, other than what I remember of the time frame. But it would've made sense.

[Aceorton]

A couple of things definitely seemed to be in play:

1. Monsoon had lost more than a step by mid-1992. He didn't appear at SummerSlam or Survivor Series and dropped to being a B-team or even C-team commentator once JR showed up at WrestleMania 9. Without Heenan or Jesse, he just seemed out of place. Vince wanted "edgy" entering the RAW era (or whatever passes as edgy to Vince), and you get the sense that he considered himself the only one who could lead the commentary team. Maybe if Jesse had stayed, this wouldn't have been as necessary.

2. Vince also seemed hellbent on developing a new Jesse. Piper, Honky, Savage, DiBiase, Perfect and finally Lawler all were tried in that role as the eccentric color guy until Lawler more or less stuck.

[auph10imitated]

There were many other combos other than Jesse and Gorilla if you look past PPV and main TV, you had a ton of combos on the MSG, Boston Garden, MLG shows, as well as different combos on CH videos.

[thecrusherwi]

Many many years ago, I had a spreadsheet of every WWF/E PPV announce team, so I too share this strange fascination with the OP.

Tony Schiavone was supposed to do Survivor Series 1989 and then it got changed to Gorilla very late. I think Tony cites this as one of the reasons he started looking to go back to the NWA. They looked for a while to be trying to make him the main PPV play-by-play guy, as that would have been three straight PPVs with Tony and Jesse. I actually really liked the Tony and Jesse pairing. They were good in their two appearances in the WWF and were quite good together in WCW.

It would appear that even in the the Gorilla and Jesse/Heenan Era, Vince still trusted himself the most to be the lead commentator. He still was the play by play man for Superstars (which had the widest syndication distribution and the better time slots compared to Wrestling Challenge) and he did all the Saturday Night's Main Events. Far more people saw Superstars and the SNME shows than saw any of the pay per views.

Jesse Ventura leaving was a blow to the WWF's presentation that they never really recovered from until the Attitude Era when JR and King really found their groove. It might be sacrilegious to say, but I never found Gorilla and Heenan to be as good as a team as Gorilla and Jesse on a big show. They were perfect for a weekend show or Prime Time Wrestling, but sometimes they were a bit too silly. Jesse made those PPVs feel like legit sporting events and I like that for your big blowoff shows. The others they tried were either too over the top (Piper, Savage, Lawler when working with McMahon) or just didn't bring the same energy (Dibiase, Perfect).

Also, if we're talking WWF/E commentary teams, JR and Paul Heyman were fantastic for that 8 months they were together. It's too bad that didn't go on longer.

[tafkaga]

Vince was really the main face/voice of the product for almost 3 decades, but it's easy to forget that because we tend to focus more on pay per views now, but as for their flagship television offerings, it was always Vince until it was permanently handed off to Jim Ross. My assumption is that the only reason Vince didn't do the PPV's is because he wanted to be more hands-on backstage for PPV broadcasts. I think Vince always put himself where he thought he had the most control.

[Milkman Norm]

thecrusherwi & the opposite happened at the 1990 Royal Rumble where Vince (or Gorilla) was supposed to do play by play but got to messed up the night before so he asked Tony to sub for him.

[cjh]

May 9, 2022 13:40:21 GMT -5 Milkman Norm said:

thecrusherwi & the opposite happened at the 1990 Royal Rumble where Vince (or Gorilla) was supposed to do play by play but got to messed up the night before so he asked Tony to sub for him.

According to Tony, Vince was out late the previous night and showed up to the venue completely beat.  He then had this exchange with Tony.

Vince: Tony, did you bring your tux?

Tony: Yes.

Vince: You're doing the show.

[Milkman Norm]

May 9, 2022 13:49:24 GMT -5 cjh said:

May 9, 2022 13:40:21 GMT -5 Milkman Norm said:

thecrusherwi & the opposite happened at the 1990 Royal Rumble where Vince (or Gorilla) was supposed to do play by play but got to messed up the night before so he asked Tony to sub for him.

According to Tony, Vince was out late the previous night and showed up to the venue completely beat.  He then had this exchange with Tony.

Vince: Tony, did you bring your tux?

Tony: Yes.

Vince: You're doing the show.

I was like 99% sure it was Vince.

[Hulkshi Tanahashi]

We have the Screwjob to thank for the JR/King pairing. It had been a 3 man team with them and Vince for most of the year. Then, at Survivor Series, Vince stayed because of the situation with Bret. Then, after the Screwjob, there was no way he could go back to commentary. So that pairing stuck. It’s a good thing they had such great chemistry together.

[dablueboy]

94 was probably the most mishmash year for PPV announce teams in WWE, you had the following

Royal Rumble - Vince and DiBiase (with JR and Gorilla doing the Razor/IRS match)

Wrestlemania - Vince and Lawler

King of the Ring - Gorilla, Savage and Art Donovan

Summerslam - Vince and Lawler

Survivor Series - Vince and Gorilla

[lildude8218]

The commentary teams were drawn via lottery system. It's just absolutely amazing how often it was the same two guys.

[thecrusherwi]

May 9, 2022 11:18:08 GMT -5 tafkaga said:

Vince was really the main face/voice of the product for almost 3 decades, but it's easy to forget that because we tend to focus more on pay per views now, but as for their flagship television offerings, it was always Vince until it was permanently handed off to Jim Ross. My assumption is that the only reason Vince didn't do the PPV's is because he wanted to be more hands-on backstage for PPV broadcasts. I think Vince always put himself where he thought he had the most control.

Good points. Also, with the rare exception of the first Royal Rumble, the Main Event live shows, and his PPV appearances, the prominent programming that Vince did PBP for was taped - so he could run gorilla and then do commentary later.

[krozor]

They've really never been able to replicate what Ventura did, have they? JR/Lawler was a successful variation of Monsoon/Heenan in its own way. I prefer Gorilla and Bobby by a lot (but I also grew up on them), but it was built on that model of a face who barely puts up with the heel but they're ultimately friends, albeit with the power dynamics reversed: Heenan was afraid of Monsoon, while Lawler morphed from a cruel antagonist into a "harmless" pervert and eventually into a face who just liked bad jokes.

Ventura, though, was an equal to Monsoon. There was no sense he'd ever back down from him and Gorilla would never threaten Jesse like he did Bobby. Ventura felt like a character with agency: he dressed like a colorful goof (he's a wrestler!) and was happily the total blowhard when he'd pretend to be this giant Hollywood star, but he had his points and made them fully and would go around doing things like investigating Andre's slow heel turn to help start trouble. Everyone they put on commentary to try to replicate that were logical choices (Piper, Savage, DiBiase) but they never had that force of character and purpose on commentary that they had as active wrestlers. And the people who came later (JBL, Corey) missed the other key that Jesse got: he was never trying to WIN. Jesse made his points (and was often right) on commentary, he gave as good as he got against Gorilla, but ultimately he knew the money wasn't in winning the arguments and getting kids to actually hate Hogan. Corey like JBL before him (who, bizarrely, are just voices for Vince who you'd think would know better) must win every argument, steamrolling the faces on commentary relentlessly right down to yelling ("SHUT UP, MAGGLE/SAXTON!") them into submission, which does nothing but make the faces in the ring come across as losers. They desperately need to realize and fix that as part of their presentation on the main shows.

[tafkaga]

May 9, 2022 17:40:03 GMT -5 krozor said:

They've really never been able to replicate what Ventura did, have they? JR/Lawler was a successful variation of Monsoon/Heenan in its own way. I prefer Gorilla and Bobby by a lot (but I also grew up on them), but it was built on that model of a face who barely puts up with the heel but they're ultimately friends, albeit with the power dynamics reversed: Heenan was afraid of Monsoon, while Lawler morphed from a cruel antagonist into a "harmless" pervert and eventually into a face who just liked bad jokes.

Ventura, though, was an equal to Monsoon. There was no sense he'd ever back down from him and Gorilla would never threaten Jesse like he did Bobby. Ventura felt like a character with agency: he dressed like a colorful goof (he's a wrestler!) and was happily the total blowhard when he'd pretend to be this giant Hollywood star, but he had his points and made them fully and would go around doing things like investigating Andre's slow heel turn to help start trouble. Everyone they put on commentary to try to replicate that were logical choices (Piper, Savage, DiBiase) but they never had that force of character and purpose on commentary that they had as active wrestlers. And the people who came later (JBL, Corey) missed the other key that Jesse got: he was never trying to WIN. Jesse made his points (and was often right) on commentary, he gave as good as he got against Gorilla, but ultimately he knew the money wasn't in winning the arguments and getting kids to actually hate Hogan. Corey like JBL before him (who, bizarrely, are just voices for Vince who you'd think would know better) must win every argument, steamrolling the faces on commentary relentlessly right down to yelling ("SHUT UP, MAGGLE/SAXTON!") them into submission, which does nothing but make the faces in the ring come across as losers. They desperately need to realize and fix that as part of their presentation on the main shows.

Never, and what really seals this for me is how great Jesse holds up to this day.  His commentary is razor sharp, and you could pick him up right out of 1990 and set him down in 2022 and he wouldn't need to change a thing.  I love Bobby, but his schtick really showed its age once he was split up from Gorilla.  What's funny is how the closest Bobby came to finding that dynamic he had with Gorilla was sitting next to Mongo for a year.  Not that Mongo was great, but he did play up Bobby's outrageousness instead of just treating him like a mild annoyance like pretty much everyone else did.

[thecrusherwi]

May 9, 2022 17:40:03 GMT -5 krozor said:

They've really never been able to replicate what Ventura did, have they? JR/Lawler was a successful variation of Monsoon/Heenan in its own way. I prefer Gorilla and Bobby by a lot (but I also grew up on them), but it was built on that model of a face who barely puts up with the heel but they're ultimately friends, albeit with the power dynamics reversed: Heenan was afraid of Monsoon, while Lawler morphed from a cruel antagonist into a "harmless" pervert and eventually into a face who just liked bad jokes.

Ventura, though, was an equal to Monsoon. There was no sense he'd ever back down from him and Gorilla would never threaten Jesse like he did Bobby. Ventura felt like a character with agency: he dressed like a colorful goof (he's a wrestler!) and was happily the total blowhard when he'd pretend to be this giant Hollywood star, but he had his points and made them fully and would go around doing things like investigating Andre's slow heel turn to help start trouble. Everyone they put on commentary to try to replicate that were logical choices (Piper, Savage, DiBiase) but they never had that force of character and purpose on commentary that they had as active wrestlers. And the people who came later (JBL, Corey) missed the other key that Jesse got: he was never trying to WIN. Jesse made his points (and was often right) on commentary, he gave as good as he got against Gorilla, but ultimately he knew the money wasn't in winning the arguments and getting kids to actually hate Hogan. Corey like JBL before him (who, bizarrely, are just voices for Vince who you'd think would know better) must win every argument, steamrolling the faces on commentary relentlessly right down to yelling ("SHUT UP, MAGGLE/SAXTON!") them into submission, which does nothing but make the faces in the ring come across as losers. They desperately need to realize and fix that as part of their presentation on the main shows.

Spot on. Jesse was a heel who people occasionally rolled their eyes at but ultimately respected. I think his finest moments were when Hogan would pick up big wins. Instead of spoiling the moment trying to get himself over or sell that he was a heel, he would go “Hey what can I say? The guy got it done when it mattered”. Those moments really cemented him as a complex character. He and Gorilla came off like colorful sportscasters and it created a timeless presentation for those shows that still holds up 30+ years later and I think will still hold up 50 years from now.

[Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!!]

I choose to believe Vince would play Eenie Meenie Money Moe.

[flowercity]

Lawler was able to stick around for so long because he understood getting the product over to a wide audience. King was always doing the commentary equivalent of the old in ring adage of playing to the last row. He still has this in him too. He’s much better than the current Raw team at this.

[jason1980s]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Looking back now I feel like most teams were put together with some logic but then you get a few random ones here and there and it becomes confusing, moreso going from Heenan/Gorilla to Vince/Heenan and then back to Heenan/Gorilla and then phasing out Gorilla, only to bring him back a few random times. It's still crazy to think he would only have been in his early 50s in 1992. The times and his look/mannerisms made him seem in his 70s. With the 'new generation' coming in to play I can see why he was phased out even if that wasn't the reason.

I guess Jerry Lawler was hired to wrestle and that's why most of 1995 and 1996 saw him off commentary. And then once they really needed on commentary or his feuds in ring settled, he went back to commentary. I liked Ted Dibiase but I feel like his personality didn't translate as well on commentary as it did in ring. I also feel like it was a last minute decision to use him for Royal Rumble 1994.

Also count me in as someone who preferred Jesse and Gorilla over Bobby and Gorilla. Bobby is one of my all time favorite entertainers and persons. I talk about him at least once a week in conversations. But there seemed to be more of a respect between Jesse and Gorilla on screen whereas Bobby and Gorilla seemed like they "hated" each other. I guess, it made me wonder why even put them together if the whole show will be about they disagreeing or arguing. It wasn't as funny as the little digs Jesse or Gorilla would give each other and they were just digs. Both men got along on screen as characters better. But personally I'm glad Gorilla and Bobby had all the time they had. They were best friends. If they were much younger they could have done a WWE Films version of 21 Jump Street, the movie.