Teemu
Tommy Wiseau
Posts: 91
|
Post by Teemu on May 11, 2022 5:08:14 GMT -5
At WrestleMania VI, Warrior became the first guy to beat Hogan clean in the middle of ring since the beginning of Hulkamania. By all accounts, he was supposed to be the next guy as Hogan was starting to step back. But, despite being over, Warrior was never quite a Hulk Hogan. He was never quite able to really capture the imaginations of fans as the top guy. He was phenomenal and popular as a midcard attraction, but the interest never seemed to quite be there for him as the main attraction.
At SummerSlam, Warrior rekindles his long-term rivalry with Rick Rude, and they have a good cage match, but in the background, Hogan is feuding with Earthquake who took him out earlier in the year. I always felt like Warrior should have gotten the Earthquake feud. We had seen Warrior and Rude go at it before - I think three times on TV; at WrestleMania V, SummerSlam the prior year, and once at Saturday Night's Main Event building towards SummerSlam again in 1990. Also, Rude was not really a main event guy when challenging Warrior. So it felt like Warrior wasn't taking on the types of challengers that Hogan was during his time on top. Like the belt took a step down as soon as Warrior won it.
In 1990, Savage was also kind of a middle of the pack player as his feud with Hogan was done and dusted. He feuded with Dusty in an entertaining midcard angle.
But a properly built Savage could have also given Warrior a nice challenge during the summer. They would end up working together at WrestleMania VII, but this was after Warrior had dropped the belt. They had a great match, too. One that could have really helped Warrior's reign.
Jake always tells the story about feuding with Warrior for the belt as a heel, but he's always talking about 1991 when Warrior was no longer champion. But with some changes, a heel Jake could have really worked a cool program with Warrior, no doubt. Jake could have grounded the character. But Jake was a babyface at the time in the actual, real timeline.
Now, of course, it should also be noted that the Warrior character itself was also not really able to get a lot of sympathy. It just wasn't quite like the Hulk Hogan character in being able to carry the whole show. Being the top name exposed the character for being rather limited when it was all said and done. He was extremely popular, though, for a period of time, and you could really see why one would experiment with putting the belt on him. If Hogan was going to drop the belt at WrestleMania VI, it's hard to see anyone else being the guy. Dusty was super over in 1990, too, for his one year run, but I don't see it being Dusty, and Dusty in a babyface vs. babyface match like that probably would not have worked the same way, either. Dusty was also never gonna be the next full-time flag bearer in 1990. As awesome as he was.
Your thoughts?
|
|
|
Post by The Dark Order Inferno on May 11, 2022 5:27:11 GMT -5
Hogan was still the focal point of booking and Warrior got retreads. Retreads with talented guys, but retreads all the same. They built him up as the next Hogan, but that's kinda meaningless when the previous Hogan was still right there, doing the same things that were delivering diminishing returns, which warrior was blamed for as the guy on top.
|
|
|
Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on May 11, 2022 5:35:15 GMT -5
I wasn't watching at the time so I'm not fully aware of the scene from that period, but I think largely it came down to Warrior being limited both in ring and on the mic. The dude had so much charisma and his win over Hogan looked and felt legit, but Hogan was still THE guy.
Hogan could have been jerkin' the curtain and still been the guy just by his presence and personality.
Warrior, on the other hand, was exposed pretty quickly and really he was a one trick act.
|
|
Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,050
|
Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on May 11, 2022 6:31:01 GMT -5
Hogan was still the focal point of booking and Warrior got retreads. Retreads with talented guys, but retreads all the same. They built him up as the next Hogan, but that's kinda meaningless when the previous Hogan was still right there, doing the same things that were delivering diminishing returns, which warrior was blamed for as the guy on top. Retreads when he was given anything, after Summerslam, he was the extra guy for the LOD/Demolition feud. There wasn't anything for him to really do, Hogan or Warrior had gone through all the top heels already, so you had retreads or elevating a midcarder which isn't a situation you want for your new champion. He needed a new, big monster, Earthquake would have been good, but they'd already faced off, and he was busy with Hogan. It's the problem of going from a big face champion, to another one, you need something new. You could have turned Jake early, but other than that, you can't even turn a big face, Dusty, Hacksaw... can't see those working out great.
|
|
|
Post by Some Baritone guy IS REDEEMED! on May 11, 2022 6:31:13 GMT -5
I wasn't watching at the time so I'm not fully aware of the scene from that period, but I think largely it came down to Warrior being limited both in ring and on the mic. The dude had so much charisma and his win over Hogan looked and felt legit, but Hogan was still THE guy. Hogan could have been jerkin' the curtain and still been the guy just by his presence and personality. Warrior, on the other hand, was exposed pretty quickly and really he was a one trick act. Yeah this is honestly about right. One of the biggest things was that Hogan in spite of his reputation was also great at selling when he wanted to be. He did so well to make it look like he was in a world of pain and that there was no possible way that he was ever going to be able to come back before he Hulked up and got the crowd going ballistic each and every time in spite of the fact that he'd been doing that act for YEARS. Warrior's comebacks by comparison never carried the same weight, because his selling looked less like grave peril and more like "I am not amused!" He just didn't have the same kind of aura as Hogan, or Goldberg, or really any champion who held the belt in spite of being a limited performer to keep the crowd invested in their work.
|
|
|
Post by dirtyoldman on May 11, 2022 7:06:03 GMT -5
He never had that big oppenent to work with. Rude had been done before and earthquake was saved for Hogan. I really think they should have built savage back up and worked with the warrior. Or as suggested, an early Jake heel turn could have worked.
Also, when you think about it, the victory over Hogan actually wasn't completely clean.... There was a ref bump and Hogan made the cover. But I guess in Hogan terms, that's as clean as it gets
|
|
|
Post by 1 Free Moon-Down with Burger on May 11, 2022 7:29:34 GMT -5
Warrior’s character really just didn’t work at the top of the card.
For as crazy and over the top as Hogan’s character was. He was still a man with normal motivations and a relatable drive and desire. Warrior was a weirdo space alien that shouted nonsense so yeah you’d cheer for him but you’re not really all that invested in what he is because you really didn’t know!
|
|
|
Post by BlackoutCreature on May 11, 2022 7:48:56 GMT -5
I've said it before, I'll say it again, he had no top level heels to defend against.
The Rude feud was a good starter, deal with your old business before starting new business. But after that all the main event heels in the company (Dibiase, Savage, Mr. Perfect) all had feuds with Hogan the year before and all of them lost to Hogan decisively. He wasn't dealing with anybody new, just Hogan's cast-offs. Why would anybody believe that Ted Dibiase was any threat to Warrior when Warrior defeated Hogan and Hogan had already defeated Dibiase repeatedly back when Dibiase had guys like Zeus and Andre the Giant backing him up?
The Earthquake feud might've helped, but then what? It was very difficult to build up credible opponents for Warrior. Hogan had this ability to make guys smaller and less imposing then him look like they could challenge him. They could out-wrestle him, out-smart him, out-maneuver him. They could look like they actually had his number until the last two minutes of the match when Hogan would Hulk up and pin them. Warrior on the other hand was promoted as an unstoppable wrecking machine who only the most monstrous of monster heels could stand up to. The idea that someone like Rick Martel could seriously challenge him with a few fancy wrestling holds and a lucky thumb to the throat was laughable.
The only thing I think the WWF could've done was what they basically did for Hogan back in 84-85 - sign a whole bunch of new talents that have proven top card experience in other promotions but were fresh and unknown to the WWF crowd, and quickly plug them into the main event talking them up as super threats. The main problem was the wrestling scene had changed a lot since the mid-80's and there just weren't that many places to get this kind of talent anymore. Maybe if the Undertaker had come in a couple months earlier, or they had signed someone like Lex Luger.
|
|
|
Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on May 11, 2022 7:58:21 GMT -5
I wasn't watching at the time so I'm not fully aware of the scene from that period, but I think largely it came down to Warrior being limited both in ring and on the mic. The dude had so much charisma and his win over Hogan looked and felt legit, but Hogan was still THE guy. Hogan could have been jerkin' the curtain and still been the guy just by his presence and personality. Warrior, on the other hand, was exposed pretty quickly and really he was a one trick act. Yeah this is honestly about right. One of the biggest things was that Hogan in spite of his reputation was also great at selling when he wanted to be. He did so well to make it look like he was in a world of pain and that there was no possible way that he was ever going to be able to come back before he Hulked up and got the crowd going ballistic each and every time in spite of the fact that he'd been doing that act for YEARS. Warrior's comebacks by comparison never carried the same weight, because his selling looked less like grave peril and more like "I am not amused!" He just didn't have the same kind of aura as Hogan, or Goldberg, or really any champion who held the belt in spite of being a limited performer to keep the crowd invested in their work. Yeah, that's a key. Hogan could make anybody look like a universe beater, and you'd believe it, no matter how many times he'd beat his opponent in the past. Warrior wasn't at that level of selling.
|
|
|
Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on May 11, 2022 9:44:36 GMT -5
Ultimately to me the answer to this question is always very simple; Warrior's character just had nothing for fans to latch onto long term. To this day nobody could tell you who Warrior was or what motivated him or what made him tick because his promos we're all a bunch of overly energetic shrieking nonsense. Who IS Warrior? Nobody could tell you. Why should you care? all the biggest stars in the history of the business were relatable. Even Goldberg who, on the surface was every bit as limited in the ring as Warrior, still felt like a real person with understandable motivations. Warrior had none of that. Essentially he was too much of a cartoon even for the cartoon era. He definitely had enough to be A guy but never THE guy.
|
|
Teemu
Tommy Wiseau
Posts: 91
|
Post by Teemu on May 11, 2022 9:46:34 GMT -5
Ultimately to me the answer to this question is always very simple; Warrior's character just had nothing for fans to latch onto long term. To this day nobody could tell you who Warrior was or what motivated him or what made him tick because his promos we're all a bunch of overly energetic shrieking nonsense. Who IS Warrior? Nobody could tell you. Why should you care? all the biggest stars in the history of the business were relatable. Even Goldberg who, on the surface was every bit as limited in the ring as Warrior, still felt like a real person with understandable motivations. Warrior had none of that. Essentially he was too much of a cartoon even for the cartoon era. He definitely had enough to be A guy but never THE guy. I've always assumed that, one some base level, the gimmick was a Native American gimmick. Like, he spoke to Native American spirits and stuff.
|
|
|
Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on May 11, 2022 9:49:09 GMT -5
Ultimately to me the answer to this question is always very simple; Warrior's character just had nothing for fans to latch onto long term. To this day nobody could tell you who Warrior was or what motivated him or what made him tick because his promos we're all a bunch of overly energetic shrieking nonsense. Who IS Warrior? Nobody could tell you. Why should you care? all the biggest stars in the history of the business were relatable. Even Goldberg who, on the surface was every bit as limited in the ring as Warrior, still felt like a real person with understandable motivations. Warrior had none of that. Essentially he was too much of a cartoon even for the cartoon era. He definitely had enough to be A guy but never THE guy. I've always assumed that, one some base level, the gimmick was a Native American gimmick. Like, he spoke to Native American spirits and stuff. Y'know I never really got that, but like ... If that's true it's a whole level of cultural appropriation I'm really not comfortable with lol
|
|
|
Post by Milkman Norm on May 11, 2022 9:53:06 GMT -5
1. Warrior never learned how to be the top babyface vs the featured match babyface. He was great at running through guys but in longer, top of the card matches it was a struggle. He never quite learned the art of the babyface sell down.
2. The territories had pretty all dried up so there wasn't an influx of new talent. Hogan had an almost yearly crop of new heels showing up from Crockett, Mid South or the AWA. Warrior had the guys who had been their since at least 1988. You can try to repackage guys but after years of being viewed one way by fans it would take time to change that impression, time Warrior didn't have.
3. Fans liked Hogan more. Hogan was a goofy cartoon who would do his zanny comeback yes. But he both knew how to sell to get sympathy and when he needed to tone down the full Hulkamania act, so when turned it back up the impact was felt. Warrior didn't learn how to do either of those things until after his title run. So fans could sympathize with Hogan, relate to him. They couldn't with Warrior
|
|
Teemu
Tommy Wiseau
Posts: 91
|
Post by Teemu on May 11, 2022 9:53:14 GMT -5
I've always assumed that, one some base level, the gimmick was a Native American gimmick. Like, he spoke to Native American spirits and stuff. Y'know I never really got that, but like ... If that's true it's a whole level of cultural appropriation I'm really not comfortable with lol Yea.
|
|
|
Post by sdoyle7798 on May 11, 2022 9:54:24 GMT -5
I wasn't watching at the time so I'm not fully aware of the scene from that period, but I think largely it came down to Warrior being limited both in ring and on the mic. The dude had so much charisma and his win over Hogan looked and felt legit, but Hogan was still THE guy. Hogan could have been jerkin' the curtain and still been the guy just by his presence and personality. Warrior, on the other hand, was exposed pretty quickly and really he was a one trick act. To expand on that, we all knew how Hogan's matches were going to end, but Hogan didn't mind looking vulnerable so that the lead up to the end had more impact when it hit. Warrior never really looked vulnerable. Any time he lokked vulnerable that I can remember was after his reign, and even then it either took being locked in a coffin or being bitten by a cobra to do it. And yes, I know he laid down for 4 elbow drops from Savage, and that may have made him look momentarily vulnerable, but how did that matche end?
|
|
|
Post by cornettesracket on May 11, 2022 12:11:13 GMT -5
I think the chase for warrior to the title was more captivating to fans than him actually holding the title. I’ve never been a fan of either guy in the ring and most certainly out of it, but having rewatched the match recently it’s much better then I remember when I first watched it in the 90s, but once he’d beaten hogan, nothing else was going to be as good as that imo.
|
|
|
Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on May 11, 2022 13:01:14 GMT -5
I think the chase for warrior to the title was more captivating to fans than him actually holding the title. I’ve never been a fan of either guy in the ring and most certainly out of it, but having rewatched the match recently it’s much better then I remember when I first watched it in the 90s, but once he’d beaten hogan, nothing else was going to be as good as that imo. I watched the match again a year or so ago, and dammit it's brilliant. Great storytelling and a finish that builds, yet comes out of nowhere. In my eyes that's the in ring peak for Warrior, and arguably for Hogan too.
|
|
tafkaga
Samurai Cop
the Dogfather
Posts: 2,115
|
Post by tafkaga on May 11, 2022 13:57:58 GMT -5
Everything went wrong with it.
1. He wasn't Hogan, and Hulkamania was still the most powerful force in the universe, brother! 2. His character was one dimensional and devoid of nuance. 3. His trajectory was straight up, and once he got to the top, there was nothing else for him to do. 4. He wasn't athletic and couldn't work, and this alone limited his appeal. 5. He needed to be carried, so he couldn't work with the variety of opponents that other champions did.
Champion or not, Warrior had a short shelf life.
|
|
|
Post by cornettesracket on May 11, 2022 14:04:34 GMT -5
I think the chase for warrior to the title was more captivating to fans than him actually holding the title. I’ve never been a fan of either guy in the ring and most certainly out of it, but having rewatched the match recently it’s much better then I remember when I first watched it in the 90s, but once he’d beaten hogan, nothing else was going to be as good as that imo. I watched the match again a year or so ago, and dammit it's brilliant. Great storytelling and a finish that builds, yet comes out of nowhere. In my eyes that's the in ring peak for Warrior, and arguably for Hogan too. As I said I didn’t have good memories of this match and also as I said I’m not a fan of either guy but even I had to admit it was a really good match. I didn’t like the hogan kick out straight after the three count.
|
|
|
Post by lildude8218 on May 11, 2022 15:31:32 GMT -5
When Hogan won his first World title for the next 9 months his storyline was "Hogan vs. the World." He didn't have one main feud, he faced literally everyone. Warrior had a couple of matches with Savage, a couple with Perfect before he became IC champ, and then pretty much only faced Rude up through Summerslam (minus a few Haku/Heenan handicap matches when Rude got hurt.) After that? He went into a 6-man house show program with LOD vs. Demolition. Warrior didn't even have a single title defense at Madison Square Garden. Following that he gets into a storyline on-screen where he's refusing to give Randy Savage a title match. Talk about a fighting champion. What's even dumber about this is you would have a segment where they talk about Warrior not granting Savage a title match followed by the Event Center where Sean Mooney would hype the upcoming card featuring....you guessed it, Warrior vs. Savage for the title.
Warrior should have been having title matches with nearly every heel on the roster. They may not have been good matches but at least they would have been interesting.
|
|