chazraps
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Post by chazraps on May 11, 2022 16:48:14 GMT -5
What went wrong with Warrior's title reign is that they put the title on the Warrior.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on May 11, 2022 16:51:15 GMT -5
Seriously though, this thread has every reason pretty much there.
Warrior as-he-was lacked the ability to make his opponents seem like threats so the allure wasn't there. Not only was there no new monster-of-the-week for him to face, there was no way he could assist in building one himself with his limitations.
Had Warrior at any point before or during his reign learned how to make his opponents looks more credible while still maintaining his character's mystique, we'd be remembering it much differently.
Even Warrior '91 and, dare I say, Warrior '92 (humanizing aspect that first month after Mania aside) were more compelling as on-screen characters for that very reason
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bob
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Post by bob on May 11, 2022 17:05:49 GMT -5
no top heels were built up for him
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on May 11, 2022 17:06:32 GMT -5
He didn't have great challengers lined up for him, along with a character and moveset with less depth than Hogan's, which made it tough for him to really make do with what he did have.
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MolotovMocktail
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Post by MolotovMocktail on May 11, 2022 17:40:57 GMT -5
no top heels were built up for him At Survivor Series, he and Mr. Perfect were opposing captains of their respective teams, but to my knowledge (this was right as I started watching wrestling), no long-term feud was planned for them before or after this.
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Post by Ozman on May 11, 2022 17:49:02 GMT -5
Warrior didn’t have any top heels as opponents. Rude was a rehash from the previous year, then Warrior was competing in six man tag matches with LOD & Demolition. Earthquake would have been a good first opponent (especially with the history between Warrior and Earthquake), but in hindsight, Mr Perfect would have been an excellent challenger for Warrior. Perfect should have beaten Brutis Beefcake at Wrestlemania 6, and kept his perfect record going forward. Then, have someone other than Perfect win the IC title tournament (maybe Rick Martel) and keep building the undefeated Perfect up to eventually challenge Warrior.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on May 11, 2022 18:18:08 GMT -5
Whomever he hadn’t obliterated, Hogan had. Most times, they’d individually already beaten those guys.
Quake was his best shot at a decent feud and Hulk got him instead.
He had no major title defenses. He had nothing to do. So he got put with LOD because they all were Warriors who wore face paint.
They’d have been better off doing some kind of questionable finish with Hogan, and do a Hogan rematch while they had time to build up a few heels.
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BlackoutCreature
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Post by BlackoutCreature on May 11, 2022 20:46:53 GMT -5
You know what I always found really interesting about this topic when it's brought up that almost nobody ever mentions? Almost the exact same thing was happening in WCW at the same time. JCP/NWA/WCW had spent years building up Sting as their next big star and champion, yet when they finally pulled the trigger and he won the title from Flair at Great American Bash 1990, he had absolutely no heels built up for him to work with. Yeah, Flair was still there, but Sting-Flair had already been done to death long before the title change. And Sid was hot too (and they wound up using him for Halloween Havoc), but it really felt like they were building him up for something more special then a filler feud. But beyond that Sting really had no one to work the house show circuit or the lesser PPV's with. The really ironic thing is that Sting had much more of an upside then Warrior and it would seem like it would be much easier to build up some monster heels for him to work with.
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Post by Mozenrath on May 11, 2022 20:52:20 GMT -5
You know what I always found really interesting about this topic when it's brought up that almost nobody ever mentions? Almost the exact same thing was happening in WCW at the same time. JCP/NWA/WCW had spent years building up Sting as their next big star and champion, yet when they finally pulled the trigger and he won the title from Flair at Great American Bash 1990, he had absolutely no heels built up for him to work with. Yeah, Flair was still there, but Sting-Flair had already been done to death long before the title change. And Sid was hot too (and they wound up using him for Halloween Havoc), but it really felt like they were building him up for something more special then a filler feud. But beyond that Sting really had no one to work the house show circuit or the lesser PPV's with. The really ironic thing is that Sting had much more of an upside then Warrior and it would seem like it would be much easier to build up some monster heels for him to work with. I forget, was this when they were having him face guys like Abdullah the Butcher, and they were giving him Cactus Jack as filler monster to beat, only for it to turn out to be actually really good?
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BlackoutCreature
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Post by BlackoutCreature on May 11, 2022 20:54:12 GMT -5
You know what I always found really interesting about this topic when it's brought up that almost nobody ever mentions? Almost the exact same thing was happening in WCW at the same time. JCP/NWA/WCW had spent years building up Sting as their next big star and champion, yet when they finally pulled the trigger and he won the title from Flair at Great American Bash 1990, he had absolutely no heels built up for him to work with. Yeah, Flair was still there, but Sting-Flair had already been done to death long before the title change. And Sid was hot too (and they wound up using him for Halloween Havoc), but it really felt like they were building him up for something more special then a filler feud. But beyond that Sting really had no one to work the house show circuit or the lesser PPV's with. The really ironic thing is that Sting had much more of an upside then Warrior and it would seem like it would be much easier to build up some monster heels for him to work with. I forget, was this when they were having him face guys like Abdullah the Butcher, and they were giving him Cactus Jack as filler monster to beat, only for it to turn out to be actually really good? No, that was about a year later in late 1991. This was the era of The Black Scorpion.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2022 3:20:42 GMT -5
1) the same problem ecw had with taz and wcw had with bill goldberg. "guy who destroys the entire roster demands title shot" works great until the guy becomes the champion, and now he's already beaten everyone else on the show, so there are no believable challengers for him to feud with once he becomes the champion. taz tore through the whole roster for two years to get to shane to win the title, so when he won the title, there was nothing for him to do, and his reign was sitting around twiddling his thumbs. goldberg beat the whole roster with his streak to get the title shot against hulk, so when he beat hulk, who's he supposed to feud with, and you can't get the title off of these superman characters without a screwy ending, like the royal rumble 91 ending with warrior.
2) there were no titles being defended in 1990 as a result. the i.c. title was given up, so they had to have a tournament to crown a new champion/build the title back up, with no feuds happening. the world champion was put in the tag title feud to even out the sides, and then once the harts won the tag titles, they didn't feud with anyone either. the only feud on the show was hulk vs earthquake in a "you injured me, so now i'm out to get you" personal feud, while the titles were inactive. so while the shows were fun to watch, there's nothing to look back and say "remember that awesome heated feud where...." about that time period.
hulk won the title at the beginning of 84, and THEN bobby heenan and all the heels went after him, where all of these other ones were the good guy beating everyone first just to get to the title shot
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2022 3:28:06 GMT -5
no top heels were built up for him At Survivor Series, he and Mr. Perfect were opposing captains of their respective teams, but to my knowledge (this was right as I started watching wrestling), no long-term feud was planned for them before or after this. mr perfect was feuding with texas tornado over the i.c. title at the time
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Post by The Thread Barbi on May 12, 2022 4:35:44 GMT -5
Just watched the Warrior A&E doc and someone summed it up perfectly - the Warrior was a rocket. The countdown, the launch and seeing how high it goes is where the excitement lies.
Once the rocket hits space and deposes it thrusters, what is left to see?
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tirtefaa
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Post by tirtefaa on May 12, 2022 4:38:28 GMT -5
All really good points made, I definitely agree it would have been nice to give Warrior at least one fresh opponent.
Maybe having him lose the belt a little earlier wouldn't have stung so much either. I always felt having him lose to Slaughter was pretty disappointing, as I would have been fine with most other heels at that time.
I guess the biggest problem I always had as a fan was him being a one and done champ. I wouldn't keep going back to the well by making him champ multiple times over, but I think the Survivor Series 1991 with Warrior in Hulk's role would have been interesting. Finding a way to get the belt back to Warrior beforehand may have been tough though.
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auph10imitated
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Post by auph10imitated on May 12, 2022 4:40:58 GMT -5
Comparing it that of Hogan's, Hogan came in fresh, literally won the title and it was a blank canvas, he had a big list of challengers that he could go around the House Show loop with, and was able to change them on a monthly basis which is how the business worked then, he went through Iron Sheik, The Samoans, David Shultz, Paul Orndorff, Big John Studd, Greg Valentine, Adrian Adnois, George Steele, Brutus Beefcake, Kamala, Bob Borton and Nikolai Volkoff all in 1984 alone, while building to a bigger program with Piper and coupled with the MTV fan fare as well. This foumula continued in '85, '86 and '87 by having a stack of of challengers while having a main program with Piper, Orndorff and Andre the Giant.
This formula was being phased out by the time Warrior had come in, and building to PPV's started to become a thing, but the lack of challengers hurt his run on the house show loop, plus alot of the people Warrior had to face, he had already faced previously, like Rude, Perfect, Dibiase and Haku.
So lack of challengers and being on top during a period where the business was changing (coupled with terrible ring skills and an inflated ego) it was doomed to fail
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2022 4:51:09 GMT -5
the weird thing is warrior losing the title freshened him back up again. had a personal feud with savage coming out of losing the title, and undertaker in a "battle of supernatural characters" feud.
Flair coming in after summerslam 91 gave them a much needed bad guy. summerslam with hulk/warrior vs slaughter/adnan/mustafa, there was no doubt of who was going to win, and hulk/warrior were so far above everyone on the totem pole that they had to elevate undertaker immediately after for the survivor series, since there was literally no one else. the bad guys were undertaker and newly turned jake, and just arrived flair. so with hulk as the champion and bret and l.o.d. just won their titles, it leaves warrior left hanging with nothing to do and/or feud with jake going into the fall over the "trust me warrior!" stuff. flair was paired up with piper and then hulk, undertaker was elevated into the title match since there was no one else and he was already there and established, and I guess they were going to have warrior/jake, and then what? do warrior vs flair for the title over the summer 92 after he was done with piper and hulk, and warrior had already been with undertaker, unless you want to do heel undertaker vs warrior part 2 for the title over summer 92. the show would be written into a corner at that point.
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Post by SmashTV on May 12, 2022 13:48:41 GMT -5
Lack of fresh or credible opponents, Warrior lacked Hogan’s ‘human’ side and even after he’d gone, Hogan’s shadow still loomed large in 1990 WWF. Anybody would have struggled to step out of it, not just Warrior.
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Post by eudypfohl on May 12, 2022 17:45:21 GMT -5
My take is that thd character itself was just far too out there and distant and could never connect with the fans like Hogan did.
Also Warrior was just never a great in ring performer. Even at the absolute peak of his abilities (and have to give credit where credit is due, he DID become a much better wrestler by 90...91, than he was in 87/88) but still his best is really just average.
He didnt have the love of the business that others did. It was his job, he never would have that passion and commitment for the wrestling business that others do
They also didnt have that monster mega heel waiting in the wings to test Warrior after Hogan. I mean when you pin Hulk Hogan clean in 1990...where else is there to go except down. They needed to have some sort of heel really make people believe the Warrior is vulnerable
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on May 12, 2022 18:29:47 GMT -5
At Survivor Series, he and Mr. Perfect were opposing captains of their respective teams, but to my knowledge (this was right as I started watching wrestling), no long-term feud was planned for them before or after this. mr perfect was feuding with texas tornado over the i.c. title at the time He’d actually already beat Kerry for the belt, but it wasn’t scheduled to air until after. I believe. Which is why Perfect pinned Kerry clean as a sheet.
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Post by The Thread Barbi on May 12, 2022 18:34:20 GMT -5
They also didnt have that monster mega heel waiting in the wings to test Warrior after Hogan. I mean when you pin Hulk Hogan clean in 1990...where else is there to go except down. They needed to have some sort of heel really make people believe the Warrior is vulnerable I'll always maintain that the Undertaker debuted 12 months too late. The 91 feud humanized Warrior and storyline wise was probably Warrior's best year...just that he wasn't champion. If his reign had stretched out a bit longer, I wouldn't see why the Warrior couldn't have done the honours to Taker at Wrestlemania 8, seeing as Jim Helwig wasn't a belt mark and liked Mark IRL (pun intended)
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