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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jun 7, 2022 7:43:53 GMT -5
"Im not personally a fan of something and therefore it will definitely fail even though the show sold out in an hour" is certainly a take.
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Post by Fake Jesus on Jun 7, 2022 12:00:07 GMT -5
Well that just means you don't know anything about Tanahashi. That's fair. I have no idea who he is just giving an opinion of a casual fan who watches AEW. "I was rolling my eyes when he showed up on Dynamite. I don't understand why Tanahashi is popular."
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"I have no idea who he is"
Y'know, not to be too harsh, but this is everything wrong with modern culture.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2022 13:04:39 GMT -5
That's fair. I have no idea who he is just giving an opinion of a casual fan who watches AEW. "I was rolling my eyes when he showed up on Dynamite. I don't understand why Tanahashi is popular."
- "I have no idea who he is" Y'know, not to be too harsh, but this is everything wrong with modern culture.
Yeah, and the wrestling fandom is such a microcosm of that particular issue. "I've never heard of this thing, therefore it must suck" is a pervasive attitude in the online wrestling community, and the reason that the concept of "E-drones" exists. I'll just go ahead and give the usual retort - McDonald's is the biggest restaurant franchise in the world, does that necessarily mean that it has the best food?
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Post by lockedontarget on Jun 7, 2022 13:41:59 GMT -5
The political entanglements of a big show coming up and that show being a co-promoted crossover show with a major business partner are worth a lot more than the kayfabe sanctity of a ranking system that has always loosely been a question of getting the right, desired pieces into place, where the wheels are always greased to produce whatever result it needs to get planned matches to happen. Frankly, no, the rankings shouldn't be treated as a shoot. And this situation kind of is unavoidable. You can't put Wardlow into the co-main of your big show with New Japan. That'd be a really dumb idea from a business standpoint, and if you're putting show sales and the satisfaction of a major partner on the line because oopsie you didn't think the worst case scenario would happen with your champion, then that's just not the right alignment of priorities at all. Nobody signed to NJPW should be involved in any way with crowning a new AEW champion. I'm ready for this thing to be over with. You have a PPV this month that doesn't need a title. The next PPV that matters is like three months away. This FD PPV is mucking everything up, and I'll say it will be the lowest buy of an AEW PPV yet. AEW literally doesn’t exist without NJPW. The Elite were born there. NJPW is part of the lifeblood and history of AEW. The idea that they don’t deserve a role in shaping AEW’s future is silly.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jun 7, 2022 13:56:32 GMT -5
Nobody signed to NJPW should be involved in any way with crowning a new AEW champion. I'm ready for this thing to be over with. You have a PPV this month that doesn't need a title. The next PPV that matters is like three months away. This FD PPV is mucking everything up, and I'll say it will be the lowest buy of an AEW PPV yet. AEW literally doesn’t exist without NJPW. The Elite were born there. NJPW is part of the lifeblood and history of AEW. The idea that they don’t deserve a role in shaping AEW’s future is silly. All four EVPs of the company ended their New Japan runs on title matches at their biggest show of the year to walk into AEW, as did AEW's very first crowned champion. Shit, multiple stories in early AEW were direct continuations of what happened in New Japan; Kenny as the fallen ace slowly losing his grip was very directly building off from him having lost to Tanahashi at Wrestle Kingdom, and that one plotline alone launched multiple of the biggest storylines the company has run (Jericho's title run, the Kenny/Moxley feud, Kenny and Hangman teaming, the Kenny heel turn and reign in full). The connections are substantial.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jun 7, 2022 17:26:47 GMT -5
AEW literally doesn’t exist without NJPW. The Elite were born there. NJPW is part of the lifeblood and history of AEW. The idea that they don’t deserve a role in shaping AEW’s future is silly. All four EVPs of the company ended their New Japan runs on title matches at their biggest show of the year to walk into AEW, as did AEW's very first crowned champion. Shit, multiple stories in early AEW were direct continuations of what happened in New Japan; Kenny as the fallen ace slowly losing his grip was very directly building off from him having lost to Tanahashi at Wrestle Kingdom, and that one plotline alone launched multiple of the biggest storylines the company has run (Jericho's title run, the Kenny/Moxley feud, Kenny and Hangman teaming, the Kenny heel turn and reign in full). The connections are substantial. Even Cody going his own way (even though he's left AEW now) and distancing himself from the Elite has roots in him getting jealous of Kenny's connection to Ibushi (and the "Handsome Battle" at WK and then the Three Way title match...)
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Jun 7, 2022 17:39:26 GMT -5
My general stance on the whole matter is basically that I totally recognize there's absolutely a market for doing crossover stuff with NJPW and a lot of history around it... but that doesn't mean I remotely care or want to see it. Like, I don't mind that it's happening, but I much prefer every wrestling company being an island and even if I didn't NJPW's kind of a thing where I watch Wrestle Kingdom (usually, didn't this year) and that's enough for me.
I will grant to having had a certain amount of curiosity about Punk / Tanahashi, something about that was an intriguing idea to me, but like I have no desire whatsoever to see Moxley / Tanahashi. But for the people who do, hey, you do you.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jun 7, 2022 17:49:28 GMT -5
My general stance on the whole matter is basically that I totally recognize there's absolutely a market for doing crossover stuff with NJPW and a lot of history around it... but that doesn't mean I remotely care or want to see it. Like, I don't mind that it's happening, but I much prefer every wrestling company being an island and even if I didn't NJPW's kind of a thing where I watch Wrestle Kingdom (usually, didn't this year) and that's enough for me. I will grant to having had a certain amount of curiosity about Punk / Tanahashi, something about that was an intriguing idea to me, but like I have no desire whatsoever to see Moxley / Tanahashi. But for the people who do, hey, you do you. Moxley's one of those dudes where even though I don't really dislike him (except for the stupid shoulder roll thing that I wish he'd stop doing), I have next to zero interest in seeing any of his matches anymore. I'd rather see, say... Tanahashi vs. Miro.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jun 7, 2022 17:53:50 GMT -5
My general stance on the whole matter is basically that I totally recognize there's absolutely a market for doing crossover stuff with NJPW and a lot of history around it... but that doesn't mean I remotely care or want to see it. Like, I don't mind that it's happening, but I much prefer every wrestling company being an island and even if I didn't NJPW's kind of a thing where I watch Wrestle Kingdom (usually, didn't this year) and that's enough for me. I will grant to having had a certain amount of curiosity about Punk / Tanahashi, something about that was an intriguing idea to me, but like I have no desire whatsoever to see Moxley / Tanahashi. But for the people who do, hey, you do you. Moxley's one of those dudes where even though I don't really dislike him (except for the stupid shoulder roll thing that I wish he'd stop doing), I have next to zero interest in seeing any of his matches anymore. I'd rather see, say... Tanahashi vs. Miro. Coudln't disagree more, Moxley has been putting on some amazing matches lately, his stuff with Yuta and Garcia were fantastic bouts.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jun 7, 2022 18:48:13 GMT -5
Moxley's one of those dudes where even though I don't really dislike him (except for the stupid shoulder roll thing that I wish he'd stop doing), I have next to zero interest in seeing any of his matches anymore. I'd rather see, say... Tanahashi vs. Miro. Coudln't disagree more, Moxley has been putting on some amazing matches lately, his stuff with Yuta and Garcia were fantastic bouts. For me, and this is just a personal thing, not an argument for how anybody else should feel, Mox's current vibe just isn't something I can get into. And not something I want to see other people work around, either. It could easily change if he turns and flips the script. But for now, he's just not for me.
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Post by Kalmia on Jun 7, 2022 18:57:21 GMT -5
I think the IWC and these forums would be a much more peaceful place if more people acknowledged that sometimes, things just aren't for them. Not every AEW fan is going to be onboard with Forbidden Door and as long as it isn't rooted in something purposely negative and vindictive, that's fine. Just like some fans will love every second of it.
And that can apply to everything in pro wrestling. I'm fully on board with Forbidden Door, but don't like the MJF stuff. Other people will be the opposite. As long as you're respectful and don't expect the entire industry and fanbase to bow to your opinions, it's all cool. Let people like things and let people not like things.
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Post by THE FVNKER on Jun 7, 2022 19:13:51 GMT -5
I think the IWC and these forums would be a much more peaceful place if more people acknowledged that sometimes, things just aren't for them. Not every AEW fan is going to be onboard with Forbidden Door and as long as it isn't rooted in something purposely negative and vindictive, that's fine. Just like some fans will love every second of it. And that can apply to everything in pro wrestling. I'm fully on board with Forbidden Door, but don't like the MJF stuff. Other people will be the opposite. As long as you're respectful and don't expect the entire industry and fanbase to bow to your opinions, it's all cool. Let people like things and let people not like things. Agreed. I'm more interested in the idea of the Forbidden Door show happening than I am with what's on it. I don't follow NJPW at all, so it's hard for me to gain interest... but, I like when promotions cross over in a big way. Makes it feel like one of those boxing mega cards from back in the day.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jun 7, 2022 19:21:54 GMT -5
I think the IWC and these forums would be a much more peaceful place if more people acknowledged that sometimes, things just aren't for them. Not every AEW fan is going to be onboard with Forbidden Door and as long as it isn't rooted in something purposely negative and vindictive, that's fine. Just like some fans will love every second of it. And that can apply to everything in pro wrestling. I'm fully on board with Forbidden Door, but don't like the MJF stuff. Other people will be the opposite. As long as you're respectful and don't expect the entire industry and fanbase to bow to your opinions, it's all cool. Let people like things and let people not like things. Yeah, way too many times have we run into a wall that consists of "This sucks, so no one can have fun if I'm not having fun", and it does bring the entire mood down I will admit I've also probably run into my own wall where it can come off like I'm being overdefensive, but I never am coming from a place where we can't be civil or you can't simply hate it or have that opinion, a lot of places are simply toxic and there's no winning, but I like to think FAN isn't one of them.
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Post by havokshofc on Jun 8, 2022 0:31:08 GMT -5
All I can say is please just don’t give the title to Mox again.
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on Jun 8, 2022 2:38:22 GMT -5
That's fair. I have no idea who he is just giving an opinion of a casual fan who watches AEW. "I was rolling my eyes when he showed up on Dynamite. I don't understand why Tanahashi is popular."
- "I have no idea who he is" Y'know, not to be too harsh, but this is everything wrong with modern culture.
Wow. Here's the thing- it's not the audience's job to promote the characters or sell the show. It's the show's. I love Tanahashi. I'm a bit out of the loop on post-covid NJPW but generally know the guys and broad happenings. You cannot and should not expect everyone to because not every viewer or even every audience member will. Yes, NJPW has a subscription service and English commentary. Doesn't matter. You can't expect, or rely on, the audience to have it if you want to maximize the sales of a show and appeal of the guys you're bringing in, you have to present it as if the crowd are cold. JBL reading a Wikipedia resume sucked and did little to sell new guys to an unfamiliar audience, but so does just pointing and going "It's Hiroshi Tanahashi from New Japan listen to the crowd of hardcore fans!" Show don't tell has always been the bedrock of entertainment but if you can't show then at least tell in detail rather than effectively saying "figure it out yourself if you don't get him it's your fault". It is not any viewer's job to inform themselves on the extensive history and backstory. It is not a viewer's job to make themselves understand or like a product or character therein. Much like with a film- it's not the viewer's job to fix plotholes with headcanon (even if I enjoy this as s creative exercise). I frankly can't believe you're saying that someone being unfamiliar with Tanahashi is a microcosm of culture's problems, especially when we live in an age where you get stuff like the Marvel films or Star Wars series that are at times reliant on people having already seen every preceding instalment and spinoff to understand what's happening or care who characters are. Serialisation, longform story and rewarding diehard customers are good things but it shouldn't be the customer's job to figure out (and often PAY to figure out) who the hell some characters are, a good product does that itself. And on the subject of Marvel and how they can be guilty of this, minor spoilers for Multiverse of Madness but there's a couple of characters who make their MCU debut, I had no clue who one was, they did very little to sell him, but that was fine as he was a footnote character to pop the comic fans. He wasn't the centrepiece of the film in the way this crossover PPV inherently hinges on NJPW guys. Yeah, and the wrestling fandom is such a microcosm of that particular issue. "I've never heard of this thing, therefore it must suck" is a pervasive attitude in the online wrestling community, and the reason that the concept of "E-drones" exists. I'll just go ahead and give the usual retort - McDonald's is the biggest restaurant franchise in the world, does that necessarily mean that it has the best food? Who has said "I've not heard of it so it sucks" in this thread? You've got one guy saying that he's not seen Tanahashi before and AEW haven't done anything to sell him on him or the crossover card in general. "E-drone" doesn't exist for any reason beyond toxic elitist gatekeeping. Not everyone has the time, money, energy or inclination to consume all wrestling. Doesn't make them a less worthy fan. Doesn't make it their responsibility to know who a crossover talent is. Doesn't make it their responsibility to sell themselves on him. Even with NJPW World, the YouTube career retrospectives, or whatever else you want to point to, there are some language barriers and levels of media abstraction which if you're a casual or TV or in out viewer make it less likely you'll want or be able to engage with those things,and nobody is obligated to. There's so much content available but that cuts both ways- there's so much OTHER content these days too, and not everyone is gonna sink all that time into it especially on top of any other interests or commitments. And frankly this is why I agree when he's questioning how the PPV will do. Fast ticket sales is one thing- that's starting from a point of selling to the most devoted AEW crowd, who are already likely familiar with NJPW given AEWs origins. PPV buys is another, it casts a wider, more casual net. I love New Japan's roster and think a crossover PPV could do well but there's two key things: you have to sell all the New Japan guys as individuals not just "they're big stars from Japan's biggest company", and you have to have headline matches that don't feel foregone conclusions- which is why putting titles on the line in interpromotional matches is a gamble. Doesn't matter if ACTUALLY Tana wins the AEW Interim- the prelude feel to most people will be "the AEW guy obviously wins" because even people unfamiliar with NJPW will be familiar with that level of wrestling booking. And again, I'm a huge fan of these guys. And some crossover guys have been promoted well- my partner is even more casual than I am now and loves Ishii from his one appearance with Best Friends because of how clearly it told you everything about him. But it's fair to say you think AEW haven't done that with everyone so you don't care AND to not know who they are because again not everyone will,can or should have the same level of fandom. And again- this is all coming from someone who does know who Tanahashi is and loves the guy.
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Post by bearned on Jun 8, 2022 3:27:18 GMT -5
I think the IWC and these forums would be a much more peaceful place if more people acknowledged that sometimes, things just aren't for them. Not every AEW fan is going to be onboard with Forbidden Door and as long as it isn't rooted in something purposely negative and vindictive, that's fine. Just like some fans will love every second of it. And that can apply to everything in pro wrestling. I'm fully on board with Forbidden Door, but don't like the MJF stuff. Other people will be the opposite. As long as you're respectful and don't expect the entire industry and fanbase to bow to your opinions, it's all cool. Let people like things and let people not like things. I’ve got no problem with people not genuinely liking things. However, if your basis for not liking something is basically because you don’t know who they are? That might have been legit back in the days before google and YouTube existed. There is no excuse for it now. One of the things I do like about AEW is they generally don’t feel the need to spoon feed viewers who someone is.
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Post by eJm on Jun 8, 2022 3:29:58 GMT -5
Let's move on from this topic please.
Feel like everyone's made their point but I will agree that ignorance isn't an excuse to dislike anything and also agree that a company can do a better job at explaining things (even though, with Tanahashi, commentary was pretty outspoken about how big a deal it is so...like, they kinda did?).
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Jun 8, 2022 13:18:18 GMT -5
They should've released this earlier but this basically sums it up perfectly:
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2022 14:40:37 GMT -5
They should've released this earlier but this basically sums it up perfectly: Yeah this is wonderful and all but it's so perplexing how they struggle to get the word out sometimes...I saw so many people say they had no idea CM Punk even had a huge announcement last week so they either missed it or were totally off guard.
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Post by markymark on Jun 9, 2022 8:54:55 GMT -5
If Punk can comeback in time for All Out, good.
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