fortknox
Dennis Stamp
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Post by fortknox on Jul 11, 2022 13:06:56 GMT -5
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOUR NAME IS!
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jul 11, 2022 13:12:16 GMT -5
I'll never claim to be the biggest Billy Gunn fan alive, but this promo and the whole program killed the guy dead and wasted that year's KOTR. I understand that he was never gonna be "the guy" but it's the kind of booking that would have people screaming today and we're not even getting into the "rights to the DX name" nonsense they did in between where...he lost that match and feud too.
If your augment is "he was never gonna be a top guy" and/or "he shouldn't have won KOTR", you're probably right....but he *did* and his push was killed dead within a month.
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Post by James Fabiano on Jul 11, 2022 13:19:30 GMT -5
No it's BIMMY!
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Jul 11, 2022 13:27:51 GMT -5
Rock should honestly have been more selfish and did what Austin did and refuse to work a program with Billy because it was beneath him. For as hot as he was and how rapidly he was gaining popularity at that time he absolutely deserved a better opponent for a major PPV like Summerslam than Billy Gunn. Mankind had no business being involved in that main event so even Rock & Sock being added to the Tag title match and winning would have been a better use of him seeing as they would win the titles and feud with Undertaker and Big Show in the following weeks anyway.
Everyone always remembers this failed Billy Gunn singles push but they tried again the next year and it also barely lasted 2 months. He returned from injury, quickly won the IC title from Eddie then became maybe the only person ever to have a bad singles PPV match with Chris Benoit and they immediately gave up and sent him to the lower card.
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Post by Aceorton on Jul 11, 2022 13:30:47 GMT -5
Yeah, this was absolutely awful booking. To bestow the KOTR on someone in those days, I think the WWF had some obligation to not immediately turn around and bury them. Owen and HHH lost at SummerSlam after winning their respective KOTRs, but those were incredible cage matches that didn't make them look like jokes. Whether you agree with Mabel and Billy Gunn being worthy of KOTR or not, they both got the rug yanked out from under them, and it really devalued the whole point of winning this big tournament.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Jul 11, 2022 13:44:13 GMT -5
Yeah, this was absolutely awful booking. To bestow the KOTR on someone in those days, I think the WWF had some obligation to not immediately turn around and bury them. Owen and HHH lost at SummerSlam after winning their respective KOTRs, but those were incredible cage matches that didn't make them look like jokes. Whether you agree with Mabel and Billy Gunn being worthy of KOTR or not, they both got the rug yanked out from under them, and it really devalued the whole point of winning this big tournament. In hindsight there wasn't a lot of great choices for the 1999 KOTR. Road Dogg was more popular than Billy but he had the same problem of being a perfect tag guy who was probably never going to work as a big singles star. X-Pac was in the middle of his tag-team with Kane. Big Show was apparently the original choice but he had gained so much weight and was putting in such terrible performances at the time he didn't deserve any kind of accolade. They were trying to push Hardcore Holly at the time but that would probably have been worse than Billy. You could give it to HHH as he built towards his Summerslam title shot but I don't think they wanted a repeat winner.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
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Post by chazraps on Jul 11, 2022 13:55:06 GMT -5
I think the issue with Billy Ass in summer 1999 is that they had him still enter to "Ass Man." There's no way he was going to reach the next level still in the full-ass persona like that.
Of all the times someone could have benefitted from a KOTR victory personal rebranding, this was it.
And no, the slight change to "King Ass" doesn't count.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Jul 11, 2022 14:04:01 GMT -5
I think the issue with Billy Ass in summer 1999 is that they had him still enter to "Ass Man." There's no way he was going to reach the next level still in the full-ass persona like that. Of all the times someone could have benefitted from a KOTR victory personal rebranding, this was it. And no, the slight change to "King Ass" doesn't count. On the other hand, that theme was pretty over though. It would always get a decent pop even if the crowd then died for the match itself that followed. Jeff Jarrett had a similar thing at the time where his theme was probably more over than he was. It would always get a massive pop, largely due to people knowing it meant Debra was about to appear.
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Post by Celexa Bliss 54 on Jul 11, 2022 14:08:07 GMT -5
Yeah, this was absolutely awful booking. To bestow the KOTR on someone in those days, I think the WWF had some obligation to not immediately turn around and bury them. Owen and HHH lost at SummerSlam after winning their respective KOTRs, but those were incredible cage matches that didn't make them look like jokes. Whether you agree with Mabel and Billy Gunn being worthy of KOTR or not, they both got the rug yanked out from under them, and it really devalued the whole point of winning this big tournament. You can argue with Mabel, that Vince had his back against the wall at that point. Mabel was already a heel and he was one of the few guys with a size advantage over Diesel, which (theoretically) would make Diesel look more sympathetic. In hindsight, maybe Yokozuna would've been a better choice that year, but Vince wanted a new star. As far as Billy goes, it was the wrong choice in every way. Dude was tepid after turning and they tried to shoot him up the card and fans rejected him. There's a reason they reunited the NAO about a month after SummerSlam. I would've just given X-Pac. Dude was hella over at that stage, would've been a better alternative.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jul 11, 2022 14:08:50 GMT -5
The issue was Billy Gunn was a good tag wrestler and a cardio freak but not much more than that.
Seriously, dude’s borderline stinking up the joint with THE ROCK as his dance partner. There’s a reason why literally all the memorable parts of the feud revolve around Rock being Rock.
This is a world class example of being pushed above your weight class and it showed from start to finish.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,529
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jul 11, 2022 14:16:06 GMT -5
Rock should honestly have been more selfish and did what Austin did and refuse to work a program with Billy because it was beneath him. For as hot as he was and how rapidly he was gaining popularity at that time he absolutely deserved a better opponent for a major PPV like Summerslam than Billy Gunn. Mankind had no business being involved in that main event so even Rock & Sock being added to the Tag title match and winning would have been a better use of him seeing as they would win the titles and feud with Undertaker and Big Show in the following weeks anyway. Funny you mention Mankind. The only reason he was in the main event was because Austin refused to drop it to HHH.
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Post by Aceorton on Jul 11, 2022 14:20:12 GMT -5
In hindsight there wasn't a lot of great choices for the 1999 KOTR. Road Dogg was more popular than Billy but he had the same problem of being a perfect tag guy who was probably never going to work as a big singles star. X-Pac was in the middle of his tag-team with Kane. Big Show was apparently the original choice but he had gained so much weight and was putting in such terrible performances at the time he didn't deserve any kind of accolade. They were trying to push Hardcore Holly at the time but that would probably have been worse than Billy. You could give it to HHH as he built towards his Summerslam title shot but I don't think they wanted a repeat winner. I'd have given it to Holly or Venis (who was defeated by Chyna in the first round). Holly could have made it work. He was in the middle of his delusional "super-heavyweight" thing at the time, and this would have given him an undeniable accolade to brag about. Plus, few would have seen it coming. Billy and X-Pac were the smark predictions heading in. Holly winning would have been like Austin in '96, when most people figured Vader or Mero was taking it. That said, Holly as KOTR requires the same kind of caution they failed to use with Billy, i.e. don't throw him right into a program with the friggin' Rock (unless Holly is going to pull off an upset win).
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
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Post by tirtefaa on Jul 11, 2022 15:46:48 GMT -5
I understand that he was never gonna be "the guy"No, but he would be "the one". In seriousness, Billy was one of those rare examples of a guy who was too good to be just a midcarder, but not good enough to be a main eventer. He was someone you could plug into a feud, but Rock was a bad fit considering Gunn's weakness has always been his promo ability. I think giving Billy some kind of an edge by either having him blindsided Rock or attack him with a weapon, but any time you just stand there and take it on the chin, then you are bound to look like a loser. I mentioned "The One" gimmick, but this felt like another example they felt they would get Billy to the main event, only for the fans to not take to it, definitely an example of someone getting a big push at the absolute worst point in their career.
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BorneAgain
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by BorneAgain on Jul 11, 2022 16:29:05 GMT -5
Some guys are just meant to be strong parts of tag teams, and Billy Gunn was just one of them. He looked good and was solid enough as part of a duo, but lacked both the breakthrough skills on the mic or in ring to be a big singles talent.
Incidentally, as someone who was live for that Rock promo on Gunn, it's funny thinking back because I recall that to most people in the audience it was amusing, but fairly standard stuff by the former. The popularity of "It doesn't matter what your name is!" wasn't really obvious until the weeks afterwards.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Jul 11, 2022 16:50:09 GMT -5
Incidentally, as someone who was live for that Rock promo on Gunn, it's funny thinking back because I recall that to most people in the audience it was amusing, but fairly standard stuff by the former. The popularity of "It doesn't matter what your name is!" wasn't really obvious until the weeks afterwards. It honestly wasn't anything out of the ordinary for Rock. He went at everyone just as hard. One of the main examples I remember is the week before Armageddon 2000. In his promo that night he basically eviscerated the entire main event scene, heel and face. Then there's the way he took down Jericho after his debut promo. When he returned against Cena and coined the fruity pebbles stuff. The way he reacted to Booker when they first met. Stuff that wouldn’t fly today like Kane the big red retard, Rikishi the thong wearing fatty, slut-shaming Stephanie, half the stuff he said to Mankind or the way he would bully backstage interviewers for no reason. He was absolutely brutal in making fun of Goldberg too during their brief 2003 feud. If you were good/over enough you’d survive it but some like Billy Gunn (I’d argue Rikishi too) weren’t capable of coming back from it.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jul 11, 2022 17:30:00 GMT -5
Rock should honestly have been more selfish and did what Austin did and refuse to work a program with Billy because it was beneath him. For as hot as he was and how rapidly he was gaining popularity at that time he absolutely deserved a better opponent for a major PPV like Summerslam than Billy Gunn. Mankind had no business being involved in that main event so even Rock & Sock being added to the Tag title match and winning would have been a better use of him seeing as they would win the titles and feud with Undertaker and Big Show in the following weeks anyway. Funny you mention Mankind. The only reason he was in the main event was because Austin refused to drop it to HHH. I don’t believe that’s officially been confirmed. I believe the official story is Ventura wouldn’t raise a heel’s hand. The whole title picture around this time was a mess. They were considering Chyna going over for a while too.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 11, 2022 17:34:20 GMT -5
Funny you mention Mankind. The only reason he was in the main event was because Austin refused to drop it to HHH. I don’t believe that’s officially been confirmed. I believe the official story is Ventura wouldn’t raise a heel’s hand. The whole title picture around this time was a mess. They were considering Chyna going over for a while too. Plus, I think Austin's explicitly denied it being him refusing to drop the title to Triple H, hasn't he? Which, yeah, sometimes he probably glazes over some of his unflattering episodes, but he does own up to some of his faults, too, as well as his "executive decisions", like refusing to lose to Erik Watts in WCW because he felt like it was going to pigeonhole him doing that even on a house show at that time.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jul 11, 2022 17:42:58 GMT -5
The issue was Billy Gunn was a good tag wrestler and a cardio freak but not much more than that. Seriously, dude’s borderline stinking up the joint with THE ROCK as his dance partner. There’s a reason why literally all the memorable parts of the feud revolve around Rock being Rock. This is a world class example of being pushed above your weight class and it showed from start to finish. One of his problems was he has very bad asthma. He was ok in tags were he could pace himself and tag out but he simply didn’t have the breath to go 20 minutes or more at high speed with the top guys.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Jul 11, 2022 17:56:21 GMT -5
The issue was Billy Gunn was a good tag wrestler and a cardio freak but not much more than that. Seriously, dude’s borderline stinking up the joint with THE ROCK as his dance partner. There’s a reason why literally all the memorable parts of the feud revolve around Rock being Rock. This is a world class example of being pushed above your weight class and it showed from start to finish. As far as his cardio goes it came out years later that he suffered from asthma which I'm guessing was also a big factor in him not making main event level. If you are a main guy you are going to have to work longer matches and he wasn't going to be able to do that. It's likely why they put him in tag teams so frequently and he rarely had matches go over ten minutes. Even in Royal Rumbles in which he was in I think seven of them he would never last that long never lasting over ten minutes despite generally being considered a pretty good worker.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jul 11, 2022 18:01:50 GMT -5
The issue was Billy Gunn was a good tag wrestler and a cardio freak but not much more than that. Seriously, dude’s borderline stinking up the joint with THE ROCK as his dance partner. There’s a reason why literally all the memorable parts of the feud revolve around Rock being Rock. This is a world class example of being pushed above your weight class and it showed from start to finish. One of his problems was he has very bad asthma. He was ok in tags were he could pace himself and tag out but he simply didn’t have the breath to go 20 minutes or more at high speed with the top guys. The issue was Billy Gunn was a good tag wrestler and a cardio freak but not much more than that. Seriously, dude’s borderline stinking up the joint with THE ROCK as his dance partner. There’s a reason why literally all the memorable parts of the feud revolve around Rock being Rock. This is a world class example of being pushed above your weight class and it showed from start to finish. As far as his cardio goes it came out years later that he suffered from asthma which I'm guessing was also a big factor in him not making main event level. If you are a main guy you are going to have to work longer matches and he wasn't going to be able to do that. It's likely why they put him in tag teams so frequently and he rarely had matches go over ten minutes. Even in Royal Rumbles in which he was in I think seven of them he would never last that long never lasting over ten minutes despite generally being considered a pretty good worker. Damn, had no idea he had asthma. Thanks y’all for educating, y’all!
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