Was Razor Ramon stale as a character by WWF 1996?

[The Rick Jericho]

He still seemed over with the fans. But people wanted him to turn heel since 1995. His buddy Diesel did and it reinvigorated his career.

Did you find the Razor character by Hall out of gas and stale by 1996?

[Mozenrath]

I think he had a little bit left, but that if he hadn't left, he'd have been due for an overhaul, anyway.

[Cranjis McBasketball]

Razor was probably the first face as a kid where my reaction was “meh”. Way too young to get the Scarface connection and he didn’t do anything in the ring worth noticing.

For me, Hall is the #1 guy who’s status in the business, which is deserved, is completely disproportionate to his ring work.

[Wieners=$$$]

I think that there being no closure to his feud with Goldust at WM12 didn't do Razor any favors as far as character progression.

In my opinion, he should've transitioned out of the IC title picture after losing to Jarrett at the '95 Rumble, and went on to challenge(and win) the WWF title from Diesel. Razor/Diesel/Shawn/Sid fight for the belt throughout '95, and eventually one of them lose it to Bret or Undertaker later that year.

[Deleted]

There was a "now what?" feeling about him at the time. The fans still liked him, but character-wise, he had nothing going on.

The problem was he had been involved with the i.c. title since the fall of 1993, and shawn was now the world champion. So with goldust now the i.c. champion, you move razor out of the i.c. title, are you going to move him up to the world title, baby face razor vs baby face newly won world champion shawn, with shawn vs razor again after the 94 and 95 matches? You'd either have to have him get into a non-title personal feud with someone, or turn him heel to be able to feud with shawn, with the difference for the fans being heel razor/face shawn. you'd already had heel shawn/face razor, face shawn/face razor, so that would be heel razor/face shawn in order to make it different for the fans seeing them fight again. The other option is do razor vs a heel (thinking of vader, instead of the one ppv match, do an extended feud, vader was new to the wwf, and razor was i.c. and above level, so it would help establish vader and give razor someone on a similar level). Everyone else was paired up already. austin with savio, mankind with undertaker, diesel was heel against shawn.

[Cranjis McBasketball]

This is called the Scott Hall and Kevin Nash Story

Two green WCW veterans, an oxymoron but true, who failed to get over made the jump to WWF in late 1992. After a series of matches with Bret Hart and HBK, they jumped to WCW for more money where Hulk Hogan turned heel and reignited the wrestling boom.

[evilone]

Razor was heel persona and I never understood why they went face with him. They should have waited at least til he was a WWF champion to turn him face. Anyway Scott Hall hit the ceiling when he was Razor in WWF and he hit that exact same ceiling in WCW when he was Scott. Did he deserve both WWF and WCW world titles around his waist? Yes, absolutely. Was he on the same level as other champs such as Bret, Shawn, Nash, Hogan, Goldberg, Sting? No, simply he wasn't. He was the guy that you kept telling yourself how he is about to breakthrough any second but that breakthrough had never happened. DDP had similar career to Scott's but he had enough spark to make that breakthrough happen while Scott didn't.

[SmashTV]

Due to his IC success, I always associated him with that title and never saw him in the World title scene. Maybe if he’d turned heel again and revamped the character to be a bit more serious, he’d have moved into the World title picture.

[Hypnosis]

Nov 4, 2022 3:47:20 GMT -5 SmashTV said:

Due to his IC success, I always associated him with that title and never saw him in the World title scene. Maybe if he’d turned heel again and revamped the character to be a bit more serious, he’d have moved into the World title picture.

I think Hall would have dropped the Cuban accent like he actually did after jumping to WCW.

[sungod2020]

Nov 3, 2022 22:39:21 GMT -5 @batfanman said:

There was a "now what?" feeling about him at the time. The fans still liked him, but character-wise, he had nothing going on.

The problem was he had been involved with the i.c. title since the fall of 1993, and shawn was now the world champion. So with goldust now the i.c. champion, you move razor out of the i.c. title, are you going to move him up to the world title, baby face razor vs baby face newly won world champion shawn, with shawn vs razor again after the 94 and 95 matches? You'd either have to have him get into a non-title personal feud with someone, or turn him heel to be able to feud with shawn, with the difference for the fans being heel razor/face shawn. you'd already had heel shawn/face razor, face shawn/face razor, so that would be heel razor/face shawn in order to make it different for the fans seeing them fight again. The other option is do razor vs a heel (thinking of vader, instead of the one ppv match, do an extended feud, vader was new to the wwf, and razor was i.c. and above level, so it would help establish vader and give razor someone on a similar level). Everyone else was paired up already. austin with savio, mankind with undertaker, diesel was heel against shawn.

His feud(if you want to call it that) with Vader was personal. He said in a promo he wanted to get it on with him. Goldust was too since he clearly stated he wanted his ass. I swear I'm not making either of those two up.

[jason1980s]

He was an amazing talent but I think it hurt the character with WWF doing a JCP "chasing the heel title holder" thing with Jeff Jarrett and Goldust winning the IC titles. To this day I will never, ever get what anyone sees in Jeff Jarrett as a top guy and as a kid I thought it was an awful thing for him to hold the IC title so long with Razor chasing it with no reward.

I know he didn't have much time left before leaving while Goldust was champion so he never got over on Goldust or really even Jeff. I wouldn't say he was stale, just early 1995 to his departure he was left with bad storylines and challengers. I think even WWF putting the title on Goldust so soon after his debut was a mistake and it also hurt Razor. His heart and mind weren't in the Goldust feud so it fell flat and he probably enjoyed working with Nash during the Diesel IC feud and it showed.

[chronocross]

I can see him turning heel again in 1996 and perhaps being a challenger to Shawn Michaels' WWF title.

[tafkaga]

Nov 4, 2022 3:15:27 GMT -5 evilone said:

Razor was heel persona and I never understood why they went face with him. They should have waited at least til he was a WWF champion to turn him face. Anyway Scott Hall hit the ceiling when he was Razor in WWF and he hit that exact same ceiling in WCW when he was Scott. Did he deserve both WWF and WCW world titles around his waist? Yes, absolutely. Was he on the same level as other champs such as Bret, Shawn, Nash, Hogan, Goldberg, Sting? No, simply he wasn't. He was the guy that you kept telling yourself how he is about to breakthrough any second but that breakthrough had never happened. DDP had similar career to Scott's but he had enough spark to make that breakthrough happen while Scott didn't.

Razor was a cool character, like the Undertaker, who was destined to be turned babyface rather quickly.  My whole family loved Razor and didn't care that he was a heel.  They cheered for him.  They thought 1-2-3 Kid beating him was stupid.

To the original question, yeah he really felt stalled by '96, and I think that was the time to turn him heel and escalate him to the main event scene.  The Goldust feud would have probably worked better with Razor as the heel and Goldust as the babyface.

[ThankGodForSidJustice]

Nov 4, 2022 3:15:27 GMT -5 evilone said:

Razor was heel persona and I never understood why they went face with him. They should have waited at least til he was a WWF champion to turn him face. Anyway Scott Hall hit the ceiling when he was Razor in WWF and he hit that exact same ceiling in WCW when he was Scott. Did he deserve both WWF and WCW world titles around his waist? Yes, absolutely. Was he on the same level as other champs such as Bret, Shawn, Nash, Hogan, Goldberg, Sting? No, simply he wasn't. He was the guy that you kept telling yourself how he is about to breakthrough any second but that breakthrough had never happened. DDP had similar career to Scott's but he had enough spark to make that breakthrough happen while Scott didn't.

They kind of had to as he was really getting over with the fans because of how cool he was. Character wise you're right it made no sense as it was a natural heel persona. Having a guy who was insinuated to be a drug lord and even a murder ("Perfecto one guy double crossed Razor Ramon before you ask that guy what happened.....if you can find him") seems odd however you have to roll with what the fans want. Same deal with The Undertaker the year before. A horror movie villain come to life who stuffs people in caskets and body bags. It's a clear cut heel gimmick but people liked it because it was cool so they turned him face. In the 90's it became more about being edgy and cool so those are the types of characters fans started to gravitate more.

[evilone]

Nov 4, 2022 12:47:23 GMT -5 tafkaga said:

Nov 4, 2022 3:15:27 GMT -5 evilone said:

Razor was heel persona and I never understood why they went face with him. They should have waited at least til he was a WWF champion to turn him face. Anyway Scott Hall hit the ceiling when he was Razor in WWF and he hit that exact same ceiling in WCW when he was Scott. Did he deserve both WWF and WCW world titles around his waist? Yes, absolutely. Was he on the same level as other champs such as Bret, Shawn, Nash, Hogan, Goldberg, Sting? No, simply he wasn't. He was the guy that you kept telling yourself how he is about to breakthrough any second but that breakthrough had never happened. DDP had similar career to Scott's but he had enough spark to make that breakthrough happen while Scott didn't.

Razor was a cool character, like the Undertaker, who was destined to be turned babyface rather quickly.  My whole family loved Razor and didn't care that he was a heel.  They cheered for him.  They thought 1-2-3 Kid beating him was stupid.

To the original question, yeah he really felt stalled by '96, and I think that was the time to turn him heel and escalate him to the main event scene.  The Goldust feud would have probably worked better with Razor as the heel and Goldust as the babyface.

Goldust vs Razor was stupid pairing to begin with. Completely two different and noncomplimentary characters. It was awkward.

[wrestlingrecap]

Ramon would need a heel turn if he stuck around. He had done as much as he could as a face and I don't think he was leapfrogging over Bret and Shawn. Ramon and Austin as a 1-2 heel side would have been great. Include a heel Diesel as a top 3 heel side.. man, WWF would have been fun.

[Deleted]

I was a huge of Razor fan growing up (Hell my first name here in 2006 was the horribly thought-out Scott Hall's Drunken Driver and Scott is in my top 5) but even I got tired of seeing him as a face.

Everyone seems to have so much meh when it comes to kid/Waltman in his incarnations but that is exactly how I felt about Savio Vega...

I could not understand at all why that cool cat Razor hung out with this weirdly shaped and slow dude other than the fact that they were both ethnic

(little did i know...AWA Scott Hall pictures would have made me have a heart attack back then)

Took me growing up and getting on the net to appreciate Savio.

[auph10imitated]

I wouldn’t say stale as such but he could have used a heel turn, they could have done it in the summer of 1995 but had he stayed then I certainly would have had him turn heel and he likely would have had British Bulldogs spot against Shawn Michaels in the spring of 1996

[sfvega]

He wasn't stale to say negatively, as in it wasn't like 95/96 Hogan where people were bored to death with him. He was completely stagnant though. He was white hot in 93, 94, and a lot of 95 and it felt like he wouldn't at all be out of place in the main event. It seems like he had outgrown the midcard, so you either needed to move him up or turn him. There wasn't much character development between when he turned in 93 and how he was presented in 96.

[CMWaters]

I'd have to wonder how different things would have been if he and Goldust had the Miami Street Fight originally planned for Mania instead of Piper being in that role.

With Shawn winning at Mania though, there was still the possibility there for Razor to have a heel turn (even if a short one) to feud with his friend (because lets face it, keep in in the Kliq like they did with Shawn/Diesel). Have him say he's going back to being "The REAL Bad Guy", show some of the asshole he was like when he went after WWF Champion Bret in 93.