"SERIOUS WRESTLER" as a gimmick

[Burst]

Am I the only person who thinks that this gimmick's got more misses than hits when it comes to people being able to convincingly pull it off?

You figure you've got Danielson and Shibata as your textbook examples of how to do the gimmick properly, but I feel like for every Danielson, you've got a half-dozen guys willingly giving themselves the 2010 WWE New Heel makeover and ditching everything that made them stand out because it makes them SERIOUS. They try to be serious but just end up being bland and boring.

Late period pre-TK buyout ROH was utterly filled with these guys, and in hindsight they feel just as interchangeable as the OVW/FCW clones from back when.

[ANuclearError]

I think a lot of people fall into the trap of "SERIOUS WRESTLERS don't interact with the crowd or camera".

The two you mentioned, Bryan and Shibata are both great at doing just that. ZSJ found that missing link in New Japan and it elevated him to that level.

If you can hunt out Showbuckle's video on NJPW's camera work, it'll showcase just how good Shibata was at using it to enhance what he's doing in ring.

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

It’s very very tricky to proper execute because all good wrestling requires some form of exaggeration. Bryan, Tomohiro Ishii, peak Stone Cold and Shibata pull it off because while they’re no nonsense they’re always going full throttle, working fast and aggressive matches. Arn Anderson was a more energetic version of the serious guy with his lively promos and working in a believable style.

ZSJ wrestles with a ton of personality, more so than before. He’ll use his holds and pin attempts in the course of a storyline through the match like when he outwits guys like EVIL. I remember when he wrestled heel against SANADA in Texas, SANADA got him wrapped in the ropes and he’s screaming “get me out!”

[Cyno]

It's like a lot of other gimmicks where doing it right is its own art. But ironically I think "serious wrestler" despite being fairly easy to do on paper, is a lot harder to do well than a lot of more overt gimmicks.

[Bo Rida]

Nov 9, 2022 12:51:58 GMT -5 Cyno said:

It's like a lot of other gimmicks where doing it right is its own art. But ironically I think "serious wrestler" despite being fairly easy to do on paper, is a lot harder to do well than a lot of more overt gimmicks.

Yeah. The best can play off their opponents and if there's a high contrast or similarity it really works. Shibita Vs OC was a perfect recent example but Suzuki and Danielson have mastered it too.

Without that charisma it's a struggle. There's a million others with that gimmick, you have to be REALLY good and/or bring something unique to stand out. It's even worse if they try to do all the different wrestling styles at once.

[IgnahtaSempria]

It also depends on where you're working and who you're working with.

An example I regularly use in discussions like this is Chikara. When you have an entire roster of colourful characters and flippy boys, "serious" characters like Brodie Lee or Eddie Kingston stand out more, because they're the minority. They're the shades of grey in a sea of rainbows.

When you're a "serious" wrestler in a promotion/scene where everyone else is also a "serious" wrestler, you get Clone Wars-era ROH.

[Mozenrath]

If there's more misses than hits, it's worth acknowledging that's true of many gimmicks. There are many more mediocre or bad cowboy gimmicks than there are good ones, for example. I'd say the same applies to hillbillies, but were there any good ones of those? I guess Hillbilly Jim is one of the more successful ones, but ehhh. Basically, though, the cream rises to the top and is remembered, not the misses, whereas a lot of "serious wrestler" types are more contemporary.

It can also be difficult sometimes to draw the line at what counts or doesn't. The Four Horsemen were often "serious business" wrestlers, but could also at times be flamboyant heels, just, ones who also presented themselves as born winners and athletes more often than not. Benoit and Malenko obviously fall on the serious side, but then you get ones like Arn and Tully, who were pretty colorful at times but still ultimately serious wrestlers, just ones who weren't above cheating, begging off, etc, when it suited them. Do they deviate too much to be considered "serious wrestler" gimmicks? Nick Bockwinkel is another that's worth noting.

"Shooters" muddy the waters a bit, too. Regal, Norman Smiley, and Finlay could all maul most any of their opponents with little trouble, and even when they got colorful gimmicks, this tended to be a clear and present part of their presentation, outside of maybe Norman doing the hardcore gimmick. Regal was posh, and the audience nodded in understanding. They also didn't question it when he'd do things like knee Bradshaw in the temple and pin him clean.

[Renslayer]

SRS Jericho started in 2008 right? I remember enjoying his matches with Mysterio and HBK during that time period

[Burst]

Nov 9, 2022 17:14:22 GMT -5 Renslayer said:

SRS Jericho started in 2008 right? I remember enjoying his matches with Mysterio and HBK during that time period

Yeah, serious Jericho started with the HBK feud, though I don't think he immediately changed to the suits and short trunks. He didn't lose the countdown in the intro until mid-2009 or so.

I feel like he definitely unintentionally started the trend of heels being slow-talking, suit-wearing, and boring of presentation, with Swagger and JTG post-Cryme Tyme being the two worst examples I can think of off the top of my head.

[Allie Kitsune]

I don't really think of Bryan as overly serious.

He's done goofy stuff plenty of times over the course of his career.

[Jindrak Mark]

Remember Gunner Scott? Wheeler Yuta kind of reminds me of him too, right down to having a beloved technical wrestler as his mentor.

That year or two period of ROH when the main event scene was dominated by Davey Richards/Eddie Edwards/Roderick Strong was brutal. Just a bunch of plain looking guys who had little for anyone to latch onto beyond "wrestles well."

Nov 9, 2022 17:14:22 GMT -5 Renslayer said:

SRS Jericho started in 2008 right? I remember enjoying his matches with Mysterio and HBK during that time period

I wouldn't classify Jericho as the type of wrestler OP is talking about. He might have been serious but he was still Jericho. He had layers to his personality beyond "I'm a wrestler and I want to wrestle well."

[sungod2020]

Although it's taboo to say this now, Chris Benoit pulled it off to a T, and he got over as a result for it. Being a serious wrestler was kinda Lance Storm's gimmick(in the WWF/E at least), but they were goofy about it, if that makes any sense.

[EvenBaldobombHasAJob]

Nov 9, 2022 17:21:45 GMT -5 Allie Kitsune said:

I don't really think of Bryan as overly serious.

He's done goofy stuff plenty of times over the course of his career.

Bryan Danielson has alwaays been at his best when he was just being himself rather than "super serious can't talk for shit" Bryan Danielson.

[EvenBaldobombHasAJob]

Nov 9, 2022 17:33:10 GMT -5 Jindrak Mark said:

Remember Gunner Scott? Wheeler Yuta kind of reminds me of him too, right down to having a beloved technical wrestler as his mentor.

That year or two period of ROH when the main event scene was dominated by Davey Richards/Eddie Edwards/Roderick Strong was brutal. Just a bunch of plain looking guys who had little for anyone to latch onto beyond "wrestles well."

Nov 9, 2022 17:14:22 GMT -5 Renslayer said:

SRS Jericho started in 2008 right? I remember enjoying his matches with Mysterio and HBK during that time period

I wouldn't classify Jericho as the type of wrestler OP is talking about. He might have been serious but he was still Jericho. He had layers to his personality beyond "I'm a wrestler and I want to wrestle well."

it was particularly bad because fans were screaming for ROH to put the belt on Kevin Steen already but Cornette just kept sticking his fingers in his ears about it.

[smokinvokoun86]

Dean Malenko was the OG at this, in terms of using being a serious wrestler as a gimmick. And to me, it’s an example of how it can make you stand out, because he intrigued me as a kid because despite all the over the top characters of prime WCW, but he felt different. He was a lot more over in WCW then people give him credit for. The gimmick fails when a lot of wrestlers try to do it and think it’s a new concept.

[XIII]

The problem with the serious wrestler character is that you still need charisma and personality behind it. Guys like Benoit and Malenko are good examples. They were never super promo machines but they had really strong physical charisma and they knew how to work within the constructs of the character. Most other guys just proclaim themselves Technical Wrestlers and then go out there with anti-charisma and do beat for beat rips of puro matches or worse.

[Natural Born Farmer]

Nov 11, 2022 12:42:57 GMT -5 smokinvokoun86 said:

Dean Malenko was the OG at this, in terms of using being a serious wrestler as a gimmick. And to me, it’s an example of how it can make you stand out, because he intrigued me as a kid because despite all the over the top characters of prime WCW, but he felt different. He was a lot more over in WCW then people give him credit for. The gimmick fails when a lot of wrestlers try to do it and think it’s a new concept.

When I was real young and had no idea it was a work, Malenko and Benoit both stood out to me because of the ferocity of their in ring work.  Their matches looked like they hurt in a way that no one else's on the roster did, and that made the stoic characters work.

They didn't talk because they didn't have to, they would show you who they were in between the ropes.

So basically as others have said, if you're going to do a "serious" gimmick, better be S-tier in the ring, or have some other aspect to it that the audience can latch on to.

[thegame415]

It doesn't work because it feels like it's everyones gimmick today.

[malloc]

Nov 11, 2022 11:16:49 GMT -5 sungod2020 said:

Although it's taboo to say this now, Chris Benoit pulled it off to a T, and he got over as a result for it. Being a serious wrestler was kinda Lance Storm's gimmick(in the WWF/E at least), but they were goofy about it, if that makes any sense.

Yes you can be a wrestling machine but still have fun with it - Benoit would say often that he was the best technical wrestler but could then have fun like the Orlando Jordan fun or stuffing Kurt's Medals into his underwear. Lance Storm was great as "serious Canadian" in WCW and Kurt Angle was a serious wrestler with an Olympic medal but could play the goofball perfectly. You can be serious but if you actually want to make money and be at the top half of the card, you have to show a little personality so anybody other than the hard-core workrate obsessed fans will care about you.

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

I think the issue here is that almost none of the people who are loosely referred to as having a serious wrestler gimmick are just that

Brian Danielson even in ROH was never just a serious wrestler, the guy and the character had a sense of humour and a sadist streak

Benoit and Malenko you have better arguments for. But Benoit also had the rabid wolverine aspect and Malenko had the iceman aspect

I would bet that the main thing the failed serious wrestler gimmicks have in common is that being all they are