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Post by theironyuppie on Dec 19, 2022 4:50:33 GMT -5
Reigns winning the 2015 Rumble match did irreparable damage to his face run. He'd been getting mixed reactions on and off prior to that, but winning that match in the manner he did in front of an incredibly pissed off crowd kicked the boos into overdrive. That's the whole what-if of that night. He likely would have been booed however he won, but having it in such a cheap fashion was an awful decision. You'd think it would have worked better if he overcame the odds and battled the two monsters, but instead Big Show/Kane have to randomly argue cause reasons so he can tip them both out. From then on, he had the worst of both worlds in the sense of being seen as a Vince favourite while never getting the big win or 'coronation' that kept getting speculated about. |
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,016 
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Post by chazraps on Dec 19, 2022 7:00:24 GMT -5
Wrestlers who debut and immediately win a title their very first match in the company is almost always the kiss of death.
Gail Kim's debut in 2003 is exactly why. A still-underdeveloped "Matrix" character that nobody from the writers to the announcers to the talent had really figured out exactly what it was yet - enters a battle royal where a champ (Jazz) is defending a title in it (already a weird circumstance that puts the heel at an unfair advantage and significantly stifles the accomplishment of a win) a midst the crowd having already gotten behind a feel-good three-week-deep storyline of veteran Ivory seeming like she was going to be the one to finally eventually dethrone her - only for Gail Kim to win and the Ivory-Jazz build never referenced again. This derailed the Raw women's division - the only thing that at this point mid-Reign of Terror and mid-Steiner/Test feud had been the only thing consistently booked well, and gave Gail nowhere to go as a character or competitor as the whole women's roster were about to take a complete backseat to the diva's search.
The rumor online is that that wasn't the planned finish and that the Jazz injury was a shoot - but I've never heard that definitively confirmed and, if someone has said that, it seems like more of an excuse for what a poorly executed by every measure that choice was.
But to the greater point, when someone debuts and wins the title right away (as in literally right away their first in-ring appearance) there's no build or investment in them as a character or a place for them to go. The sole exception might be Carlito winning the US Title from Cena, but I think a lot of that can be attributed to Carlito being such a dynamic compelling total package performer at a time when Smackdown was at the absolute worst it would ever be pre-pandemic. He would have looked great regardless, but the circumstances made him all the better and the title win was kind of a non-factor.
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Post by Natural Born Farmer on Dec 19, 2022 8:06:42 GMT -5
Basically most of John Cena's wins. It was his Superman booking and lack of clean losses that turned the crowd on him. If he lost to guys like Christian, Angle and Jericho in 2005, I doubt he would've been as hated as he was. If they'd let Punk close a few more shows after he took the title off Cena, I think that would've helped too. But Cena v. Laurinitis as a PPV main event is just as good, I guess. |
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Post by Loser troll. Please ban me on Dec 19, 2022 10:16:32 GMT -5
Considering he's been their centerpiece for the last 3 years and he's on day 7,821 of his never-ending title reign, I'd say he ended up ok The question wasn't 'wrestlers whose career was ruined by a win' Fair point. |
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Post by Cvslfc123 on Dec 19, 2022 10:35:59 GMT -5
Kaval winning NXT season 2.
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
Nachos and Fraggle Rock are TIMELESS.
Posts: 7,794
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Post by Nosnorb on Dec 19, 2022 12:38:39 GMT -5
If you are a babyface, you don't want your first title to be won by cash in on an opponent that has just wrestled, but that is exactly what happened with Big E. It got his face run off on the wrong foot and it never really got going.
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Post by bluebeach25 on Dec 19, 2022 13:35:13 GMT -5
Cesaro winning the Battle Royal at WM 30 was more the start of the downfall then the rise, sadly. They made a mistake the night after on Raw by not letting him with Colter or let him be a singles wrestlers. Heyman on his side was the worst thing they could have done at the time, he litteraly (Heyman) got cheered and booed the same night by the Crowd which i never saw before in that matter! Everything was about reminding everybody of Brock ending the Streak instead of pushing Cesaro or making a Cesaro vs Lesnar Match out if it, which they absolutley should have done at the time!
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4real
Wade Wilson
Posts: 27,929
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Post by 4real on Dec 19, 2022 14:35:31 GMT -5
Although it might be the biggest win of his career (other than winning the World Title on the Raw after Mania a year earlier) I’d argue Ziggler being the sole survivor at Survivor Series 2014 inflated fans expectations of what WWE’s actual view and plans for him were. He was one of the favourites for the 2015 Rumble and was arguably the hottest he’d ever been.
Roman Reigns was always going to be ‘The Guy’ though & Ziggler was never that in WWE’s eyes. By the next year fans were tiring of him because he was a choke artist and never took him seriously as a main event threat again.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2022 14:41:59 GMT -5
My first thought was Batista winning the 2014 Royal Rumble. Anyone who won that match besides Daniel Bryan was going to be public enemy #1 with the fans.
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Post by David-Arquette was in WCW 2000 on Dec 19, 2022 16:14:36 GMT -5
Lex Luger beats Yokozuna by countout, proceeds to celebrate like he won the Super Bowl Yeah I think if Lex had simply won by count out, setting up a rematch it would have been fine. However, he just looked like a complete goober. |
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msc
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,466
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Post by msc on Dec 19, 2022 17:39:13 GMT -5
Poor Sheamus was done dirty by that Mania booking. But what killed that title run was feuding with Del Rio for like 10 years. When they had him as non-giving up Irish bastard, even when working from beneath, the crowd ate that up. See the 2/3 falls with Bryan, and that epic match with Big Show as Terminator. He sold so damn well he turned a Big Show match in 2012 into a Match of the Year candidate.
You give Sheamus anything to work with, he gives you gold. They gave him a crock of shit instead.
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chrom
Backup Wench
Master of the rare undecuple post
Posts: 85,082
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Post by chrom on Dec 19, 2022 17:46:13 GMT -5
I think if Sheamus had won against Bryan in a regular competitive match, some in the crowd may have grumbled a bit but accepted it.
Doing what they did lead the fans to flat out revolt against him and the entire show
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Dec 19, 2022 18:19:25 GMT -5
Reigns winning the 2015 Rumble match did irreparable damage to his face run. He'd been getting mixed reactions on and off prior to that, but winning that match in the manner he did in front of an incredibly pissed off crowd kicked the boos into overdrive. That's the whole what-if of that night. He likely would have been booed however he won, but having it in such a cheap fashion was an awful decision. You'd think it would have worked better if he overcame the odds and battled the two monsters, but instead Big Show/Kane have to randomly argue cause reasons so he can tip them both out. From then on, he had the worst of both worlds in the sense of being seen as a Vince favourite while never getting the big win or 'coronation' that kept getting speculated about. No way. Absolutely no way. The fans would have hated that even more, because the entire thing was them knowing Reigns has been chosen by the bookers to be the next Cena/Rock/Hogan. The fans were ALWAYS going to hate it when the trigger got pulled. It was inevitable from the moment he debuted as The Star of the Shield. He was always gonna be the Lex Luger and the fans wanted Bret Hart. Pulling the trigger by having him win the Rumble was especially dumb, of course, because fans would see this huge climax coming miles away and would have an hour to gear themselves up to hate it. But it was never gonna work, with Reigns, until he turned heel. |
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,975
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Dec 19, 2022 18:39:09 GMT -5
Lex Luger beats Yokozuna by countout, proceeds to celebrate like he won the Super Bowl Yeah I think if Lex had simply won by count out, setting up a rematch it would have been fine. However, he just looked like a complete goober. He couldn’t but the pre-match stipulation was this was his one and only title shot, so it makes his celebration that much worse. Of course, they planned to get themselves out of that by having him win the Rumble, but Lex took that damage and Bret was more popular. So he was f***ed. |
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Post by 06vwgti on Dec 19, 2022 19:18:10 GMT -5
Wrestlers who debut and immediately win a title their very first match in the company is almost always the kiss of death. Gail Kim's debut in 2003 is exactly why. A still-underdeveloped "Matrix" character that nobody from the writers to the announcers to the talent had really figured out exactly what it was yet - enters a battle royal where a champ (Jazz) is defending a title in it (already a weird circumstance that puts the heel at an unfair advantage and significantly stifles the accomplishment of a win) a midst the crowd having already gotten behind a feel-good three-week-deep storyline of veteran Ivory seeming like she was going to be the one to finally eventually dethrone her - only for Gail Kim to win and the Ivory-Jazz build never referenced again. This derailed the Raw women's division - the only thing that at this point mid-Reign of Terror and mid-Steiner/Test feud had been the only thing consistently booked well, and gave Gail nowhere to go as a character or competitor as the whole women's roster were about to take a complete backseat to the diva's search. The rumor online is that that wasn't the planned finish and that the Jazz injury was a shoot - but I've never heard that definitively confirmed and, if someone has said that, it seems like more of an excuse for what a poorly executed by every measure that choice was. But to the greater point, when someone debuts and wins the title right away (as in literally right away their first in-ring appearance) there's no build or investment in them as a character or a place for them to go. The sole exception might be Carlito winning the US Title from Cena, but I think a lot of that can be attributed to Carlito being such a dynamic compelling total package performer at a time when Smackdown was at the absolute worst it would ever be pre-pandemic. He would have looked great regardless, but the circumstances made him all the better and the title win was kind of a non-factor. My memory is a bit shaky on it, but did the Ivory feud happen during heat or raw? If it was during Heat, was it during that Stevie Night Heat era where it seemed the higher ups weren't pay attention to any of the minor feuds going on there? I also recall some of the dirtsheets had written that Jacqueline was going to win the belt and a heel turn, aligning with Teddy Long that was nixed too. Much Like Ivory, both were treading water doing nothing of note and probably could have gotten a good boost from that. But I agree with you about Gail winning it her first night, she didn't get off the right foot and it seemed once she started using more submissions her work got better. I do feel Santino winning did not feel that bad, give how he had a lot of staying power as a lower card guy... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2022 19:21:22 GMT -5
Basically most of John Cena's wins. It was his Superman booking and lack of clean losses that turned the crowd on him. If he lost to guys like Christian, Angle and Jericho in 2005, I doubt he would've been as hated as he was. If they'd let Punk close a few more shows after he took the title off Cena, I think that would've helped too. But Cena v. Laurinitis as a PPV main event is just as good, I guess. Some of those decisions were a joke. I get Rock vs Cena main eventing over Punk vs Jericho but Cena vs Laurinitis and Cena vs Big Show in 2012 main eventing over Punk vs Bryan for the title? Come on man. Punk had reason to be pissed for how that title reign was booked. Yeah he had it for 430+ but it NEVER mattered more than John Cena. And that's Vince's fault. |
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fortknox
Dennis Stamp
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Post by fortknox on Dec 19, 2022 20:28:19 GMT -5
Kaval winning NXT season 2. I think it had more to do with his attitude. |
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
Posts: 28,016
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Post by chazraps on Dec 19, 2022 21:15:02 GMT -5
Wrestlers who debut and immediately win a title their very first match in the company is almost always the kiss of death. Gail Kim's debut in 2003 is exactly why. A still-underdeveloped "Matrix" character that nobody from the writers to the announcers to the talent had really figured out exactly what it was yet - enters a battle royal where a champ (Jazz) is defending a title in it (already a weird circumstance that puts the heel at an unfair advantage and significantly stifles the accomplishment of a win) a midst the crowd having already gotten behind a feel-good three-week-deep storyline of veteran Ivory seeming like she was going to be the one to finally eventually dethrone her - only for Gail Kim to win and the Ivory-Jazz build never referenced again. This derailed the Raw women's division - the only thing that at this point mid-Reign of Terror and mid-Steiner/Test feud had been the only thing consistently booked well, and gave Gail nowhere to go as a character or competitor as the whole women's roster were about to take a complete backseat to the diva's search. The rumor online is that that wasn't the planned finish and that the Jazz injury was a shoot - but I've never heard that definitively confirmed and, if someone has said that, it seems like more of an excuse for what a poorly executed by every measure that choice was. But to the greater point, when someone debuts and wins the title right away (as in literally right away their first in-ring appearance) there's no build or investment in them as a character or a place for them to go. The sole exception might be Carlito winning the US Title from Cena, but I think a lot of that can be attributed to Carlito being such a dynamic compelling total package performer at a time when Smackdown was at the absolute worst it would ever be pre-pandemic. He would have looked great regardless, but the circumstances made him all the better and the title win was kind of a non-factor. My memory is a bit shaky on it, but did the Ivory feud happen during heat or raw? If it was during Heat, was it during that Stevie Night Heat era where it seemed the higher ups weren't pay attention to any of the minor feuds going on there? I also recall some of the dirtsheets had written that Jacqueline was going to win the belt and a heel turn, aligning with Teddy Long that was nixed too. Much Like Ivory, both were treading water doing nothing of note and probably could have gotten a good boost from that. But I agree with you about Gail winning it her first night, she didn't get off the right foot and it seemed once she started using more submissions her work got better. I do feel Santino winning did not feel that bad, give how he had a lot of staying power as a lower card guy... The Ivory stuff was all on Raw. She pinned Jazz in the 3 on 3 tag match on June 2, and then again in a tag match on June 9, and then again in a mixed-tag match on June 16. Then on June 30th Gail Kim won the battle royal. And Santino had to completely retool himself as a jealous boyfriend heel in order to get any real momentum. Fan-winning-the-belt Santino was pretty one note. But he did recover within a year. Everyone else it happens to it pretty much stagnates them (Jerry Lynn in 2001). |
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,756
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Post by lucas_lee on Dec 20, 2022 10:55:52 GMT -5
Ron Simmons beating Vader. They didn't build up any heels to be on the same main event level so of course Simmons reign didn't feel right.
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
Nachos and Fraggle Rock are TIMELESS.
Posts: 7,794
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Post by Nosnorb on Dec 20, 2022 11:15:06 GMT -5
I think if Sheamus had won against Bryan in a regular competitive match, some in the crowd may have grumbled a bit but accepted it. Doing what they did lead the fans to flat out revolt against him and the entire show Bryan was the heel, it was at 'mania and the story leading up to that match called for Sheamus to win. The problem wasn't that Bryan lost and Sheamus won, it was how he lost and how Sheamus won, which made Bryan look awful considering finishers being kicked out at 'mania are practically a given and it also made Sheamus look awful due to cheap shotting Bryan and more or less passing up an opportunity for a fight.
Even worse, Cody Rhodes vs The Big Show was practically begging to be made a squash match due to the build of Cody taunting Show over past WM failures.
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