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Post by Cyno on Jan 27, 2023 12:33:43 GMT -5
and there hasn't been one since.
Except that whole thing where the top wrestling companies in the world are currently making more money in 2023 than they did back then.
Yeah, you can argue we're in a boom period now where several larger promotions and even more smaller promotions are able to thrive around the world. It's just that wrestling fans (and wrestling media to be fair) are still stuck in a 1990's Monday Night Wars mindset that sees Nielsen ratings as the be all end all. The media landscape in 2023 has changed a lot since the days of Raw and Nitro going head to head. DVR was in its infancy, the internet was still largely beholden to dial-up modems, and the internet wrestling fandom was mostly limited to forums, chat rooms, and usenet groups. Most cable systems were also limited to a few dozen channels instead of hundreds, and cord-cutting didn't even exist as a concept. But also for how popular the Attitude Era was, every single PPV from that era until Wrestlemania X-Seven was held in regular ass arenas. Now? Not just Wrestlemania, but other "big four" PPV's are now being held and sold out in baseball and football stadiums.
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ToyfareMark
Vegeta
A WINNER IS YOU!
In Hutch I trust!
Posts: 9,604
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Post by ToyfareMark on Jan 27, 2023 20:45:19 GMT -5
Honestly I'd say it started losing steam towards the end of 2000. Especially around the time of "I did it for The Rock".
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nate5054
Hank Scorpio
Lucky to be alive in the Chris Jericho Era
Posts: 7,011
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Post by nate5054 on Jan 27, 2023 20:57:20 GMT -5
Once Austin and The Rock left, I won't say it faded into obscurity or anything, but that was its peak. At least in my lifetime.
Ok, there's probably two peaks in my lifetime. The Hogan era (I'd say 87-90) and the prime Attitude era (say 97-02). Other than that it's always been a bit niche. Now I can see arguments against that, but my totally unscientific proof is during those two times my mom knew who those guys were (at least Hogan and Rock), and I would see shirts all the time that were wrestling related. Not anymore.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Jan 28, 2023 16:13:33 GMT -5
What would have to happen for it to be considered a boom for wrestling in 2023?
On Monday Raw was the number one show in all of television. According to the overnight ratings Smackdown was the number one show in all of television last night too. On Wednesday's Dynamite is top 3 almost every week. Dynamite beats the NBA some weeks. A few months ago the finale of Better Call Saul aired on a Monday night. It was beaten in the ratings by Raw. Not even some kind of special show. A regular episode main evented by Dolph Ziggler beat the finale of one of the most popular shows/franchises on TV the last few years.
Roman Reigns was on The Tonight Show last night. One of the top NBA players is in the news right now for doing a wrestling gesture. John Cena hosted Saturday Night Live. Wrestling is constantly covered by places like ESPN who 20 years ago would only mention wrestling if there was some kind of tragedy. Cities bid to host Wrestlemania now like they do for the Superbowl. Wrestling seems way more accepted now than it ever has been.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Jan 28, 2023 16:26:36 GMT -5
What would have to happen for it to be considered a boom for wrestling in 2023? On Monday Raw was the number one show in all of television. According to the overnight ratings Smackdown was the number one show in all of television last night too. On Wednesday's Dynamite is top 3 almost every week. Dynamite beats the NBA some weeks. A few months ago the finale of Better Call Saul aired on a Monday night. It was beaten in the ratings by Raw. Not even some kind of special show. A regular episode main evented by Dolph Ziggler beat the finale of one of the most popular shows/franchises on TV the last few years. Roman Reigns was on The Tonight Show last night. One of the top NBA players is in the news right now for doing a wrestling gesture. John Cena hosted Saturday Night Live. Wrestling is constantly covered by places like ESPN who 20 years ago would only mention wrestling if there was some kind of tragedy. Cities bid to host Wrestlemania now like they do for the Superbowl. Wrestling seems way more accepted now than it ever has been. New fans, new stars, a growing, rather than shrinking, audience, a renewed emphasis on wrestling content rather than wrestling as content, i.e., a time-occupier that about a million people will watch regardless whether the show is good or bad, and a revitalized house show circuit.
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Ozman
Samurai Cop
Chi-Town!!!
Posts: 2,374
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Post by Ozman on Jan 28, 2023 18:20:05 GMT -5
I say 2002 was when it ended. With Austin walking out, The Rock becoming a part timer, the debut of the next generation of stars (Brock, Cena, etc.), and changing from WWF to WWE was the official end of the Attitude Era”.
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Post by Vice honcho room temperature on Jan 29, 2023 3:12:45 GMT -5
Yes but... the change in corporate strategies (pg era) and trying to be a more family friendly product and even in a tv declining era being live TV means the wwe can make more money despite less people caring because everything is smaller and if you have a sphere of an audience it is alot more valuable
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Jan 29, 2023 4:05:26 GMT -5
Another point about the penetration of wrestling into the mainstream, it's kind of like superhero comic book movies vs. superhero comic books. Avengers movies can make billions of dollars around the world, but less than 100,000 people read the single-issue Avengers main title month-to-month.
Popularity, awareness, or acceptance in one area has little to no transference in other areas where real numbers of people matter and where real numbers of people are a finite resource. How many people buy a Peacock subscription? A t-shirt? A ticket to a house show or a TV taping?
Wrestling and superhero comic books have aging, shrinking fanbases although the money made off wrestling and superhero comics would suggest that the audiences would be 10x bigger. They're also making more money now than they have in the past, but if the audiences are aging out or leaving the fandom altogether, this greater amount of money is made from a smaller and smaller pool of people.
Is this a success? Undoubtedly. Healthy for the business, however, long-term? Doubtful. It's no wonder that VKM wants to hurry a sale of WWE before the ass-end of the wrestling business blows out when the audience just isn't there anymore. Until that moment, it's all smoke and mirrors (Woah, you're only smoke and mirrors to me!) WWE and AEW are within spitting distance of each other, which I see less as a testament to AEW's success and more a condemnation of the decline of WWE, the largest, most profitable wrestling company ever.
A rising tide raises all boats, but a receding tide runs all boats aground.
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Post by CeilingFan on Jan 29, 2023 11:37:22 GMT -5
What would have to happen for it to be considered a boom for wrestling in 2023? Dynamite would have to defeat Raw in Viewership. That would motivate WWE to improve their shows.
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,404
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Jan 29, 2023 12:20:33 GMT -5
In terms of numbers of tickets sold I've seen some suggestions that the territory days were the true boom. I don't know if that's true but it makes sense when you think of how you had multiple companies capable of drawing big crowds. It's hard to compare the eras because the focuses were completely different, the model then was all all about house shows rather than television numbers, and like you said there was more promoters running more shows, so the sheer number of tickets sold weirdly isn't necessarily an accurate measure of the overall popularity of wrestling. If anything the industry was in a slump during the last decade or so of the territorial era, a lot of territories - Amarillo, Detroit, LA, San Francisco, various others - were on the decline in the late seventies and early eighties in terms of ticket sales and were starting to merge with other offices or close altogether. Oddly during the last days of the territories,circa 80 thru about 86,the southern area was doing really good. WCCW was drawing huge gates and got good tv ratings,even in areas they never ran shows. Memphis was selling out often and drawing still really good tv ratings in the local area and the other areas that carried Memphis TV. And Mid South was HUGE. The Superdome shows had HUGE crowds. Then by 87 the boom was over and all that was gone. Yea Memphis still trudged on,and it was fun to watch. The crowds dropped and fewer and fewer areas appeared to get the weekly tv. As for if 2001 was the end of the Attitude era boom? I noticed from right after Starrcade 97 until 99 each few weeks our group that gathered on Mondays and Sundays to watch wrestling would get smaller. By 2001 it was just 5 or so of us. Where as just 3 years before there would be 25 people crammed into my buddy's living room. Might be different based on age during the time. We were all 24 or older baack then.
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,404
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Jan 29, 2023 12:31:19 GMT -5
I think people at the time underestimated just how many folks only watched wrestling for WCW (and ECW to a lesser extent). There were other reasons for why the boom ended but those two promotions dying definitely played a part. Even if the WWF kept firing on all cylinders creatively, wrestling lost a chunk of the audience it would struggle to ever get back. (I've told this story many times, but it fits here.) My in-laws (the wife's grandparents, specifically) were Southern and loved WCW. Ric Flair was the man, the Horsemen were it, they loved Dusty. Mamaw passed in November 1999, the Old Man 3 months later. Both hated the WWF because of the production (the bright lights and "it looks so fake". Never wholly knew if it was because I was a WWF fan or not...lol.) They never warmed to former WWF guys (i.e. Bret) coming in. Most old-fashioned fans of Southern wrestling fell away during late-2000 into 2001. You were NOT getting them back. Yep WCW dying caused all the crazy grannies,and I say this as the grandson of a grannie that tried to fight many a WCW wrestler at shows in BIloxi and Mobile,left and never came back. We have two old ladies that come to every show in town. Talked to both of them a few times when they come over to the table. 1.She is in her early 90s and uses a walker told me "I quit watching it on tv when NWA died." I am guessing by NWA she meant WCW/Crockett. But she is there at every local show. And is know for attempting to throw her drink at heels. And has went after big local heel King Rob Love with her walker. 2.This lady is mid to late 60s. She watches AEW,Memphis and a pile of other southern feds that are on TV. But she is totally a cheer the faces boo the heels person. For me TV wrestling is missing the first lady. Use to love going to WCW or Mid SOuth events on the coast and seeing these old ladies that would throw eerything at say The Four Horsemen or The Freebirds,after they blinded JYD.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Jan 29, 2023 13:20:12 GMT -5
It's hard to compare the eras because the focuses were completely different, the model then was all all about house shows rather than television numbers, and like you said there was more promoters running more shows, so the sheer number of tickets sold weirdly isn't necessarily an accurate measure of the overall popularity of wrestling. If anything the industry was in a slump during the last decade or so of the territorial era, a lot of territories - Amarillo, Detroit, LA, San Francisco, various others - were on the decline in the late seventies and early eighties in terms of ticket sales and were starting to merge with other offices or close altogether. Oddly during the last days of the territories,circa 80 thru about 86,the southern area was doing really good. WCCW was drawing huge gates and got good tv ratings,even in areas they never ran shows. Memphis was selling out often and drawing still really good tv ratings in the local area and the other areas that carried Memphis TV. And Mid South was HUGE. The Superdome shows had HUGE crowds. Then by 87 the boom was over and all that was gone. Yea Memphis still trudged on,and it was fun to watch. The crowds dropped and fewer and fewer areas appeared to get the weekly tv. As for if 2001 was the end of the Attitude era boom? I noticed from right after Starrcade 97 until 99 each few weeks our group that gathered on Mondays and Sundays to watch wrestling would get smaller. By 2001 it was just 5 or so of us. Where as just 3 years before there would be 25 people crammed into my buddy's living room. Might be different based on age during the time. We were all 24 or older baack then. Yeah, the early eighties is interesting. It strikes me that you had territories that were nearing the end of their natural lifespans, and perhaps a few hit harder than others by the seventies and early eighties recessions, so in the south you had a degree of consolidation going on with younger promoters in that area absorbing some of the offices that were on the way out. But I suppose somewhere like the west coast you didn't really have that, so the LA and San Francisco territories just sort of faded away with no other regional promotions to replace them. And obviously TV was changing everything then too. I don't know, there's a lot to think about there, and I wasn't there at the time so there's a lot for me to find out still.
Re. older fans in your other post, it reminds me of how on this side of the Atlantic there's wrestling fans of a similar age for whom wrestling died when it was taken off ITV. As exciting as the 2010s indy boom was for younger fans, you've still got people for whom wrestling just stopped in 1988, and again, really it had been on the decline for years by that point. But that's a discussion for another day.
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,404
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Jan 29, 2023 13:28:04 GMT -5
Another thing I have noticed is when I see WWE footage there is a decent amount of kids in the crowd. When I see AEW there is less kids. But any indie I have been to in the last 14 years is close to half kids,even when it was a show that wasn't tiotally kid friendly.
And from hearing the kids ask for certain wrrestlers and stuff at tables it appears at least locally the kids only watch WWE. Teens and 20 years old are into AEW. Then you got the fans in their 30s that watch WWE cause their kids like it,and then search out old stuff online to watch.
As for the ITV thing,heard that from a few people I know over in the UK.
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Post by johnnyk9 on Jan 29, 2023 19:56:56 GMT -5
No competition ruined wwe
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Post by Psicofreak667 on Jan 29, 2023 20:00:50 GMT -5
I think the historical record underestimates the amount of WCW fans who simply quit watching either when WCW folded, or when it became obvious that The Invasion was going to be WWF vs WWF with the WCW guys getting buried in the background if they were lucky.
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Jan 29, 2023 22:43:54 GMT -5
It's hard to compare the eras because the focuses were completely different, the model then was all all about house shows rather than television numbers, and like you said there was more promoters running more shows, so the sheer number of tickets sold weirdly isn't necessarily an accurate measure of the overall popularity of wrestling. If anything the industry was in a slump during the last decade or so of the territorial era, a lot of territories - Amarillo, Detroit, LA, San Francisco, various others - were on the decline in the late seventies and early eighties in terms of ticket sales and were starting to merge with other offices or close altogether. Oddly during the last days of the territories,circa 80 thru about 86,the southern area was doing really good. WCCW was drawing huge gates and got good tv ratings,even in areas they never ran shows. Memphis was selling out often and drawing still really good tv ratings in the local area and the other areas that carried Memphis TV. And Mid South was HUGE. The Superdome shows had HUGE crowds. Then by 87 the boom was over and all that was gone. Yea Memphis still trudged on,and it was fun to watch. The crowds dropped and fewer and fewer areas appeared to get the weekly tv. As for if 2001 was the end of the Attitude era boom? I noticed from right after Starrcade 97 until 99 each few weeks our group that gathered on Mondays and Sundays to watch wrestling would get smaller. By 2001 it was just 5 or so of us. Where as just 3 years before there would be 25 people crammed into my buddy's living room. Might be different based on age during the time. We were all 24 or older baack then. I'm around the same age and have pretty much the same story. From 97 to 2000 there were about 15 of us that would watch every show, and in 2001, people in the group started losing interest quickly. By the start of 2002 there were only four of us, and by the end of that year, we were all done. Even though we had all given up watching, a few of us did go to the 2003 Rumble as kind of a last hurrah.
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Post by Cyno on Jan 29, 2023 23:03:59 GMT -5
I think the historical record underestimates the amount of WCW fans who simply quit watching either when WCW folded, or when it became obvious that The Invasion was going to be WWF vs WWF with the WCW guys getting buried in the background if they were lucky. Also didn't help that a lot of the big-name WCW stars couldn't even participate in the Invasion because they had Time Warner contracts and not WCW. And either Time Warner wasn't willing to buy them out or WWF didn't bother even trying to do so. Booker T and DDP were like the only real major WCW stars to work the Invasion that weren't already part of WWF pre-2001.
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Post by sungod2020 on Mar 14, 2023 9:56:50 GMT -5
If I'm being fair, I'd say it was after WMX8 in 2002 that it really ended. The brand split with watered-down rosters, the company name change, the bungled nWo return and Hogan nostalgia tour, Austin's walkout and the Rock's last hurrah as a full-timer really changed the product into something less edgy and fun. I can go with that. While I do agree that Wrestlemania X-7 signaled the end of the Attitude Era, it was still somewhat tolerated to be a wrestling fan. It might've not been popular like it was from 1998 to 2000, but it still had it's support. I remember someone in my High School was wearing a Kurt Angle t-shirt just after 9/11 to show support for his country and had people in some classes still talk about it. Though I will admit, I did get some flack for liking it(moreso than previously). Someone did a great analogy that the wrestling boom leaving orbit before finally going out of orbit. I'll say Summerslam 2002 was when the Attitude Era started to leave orbit, and by Wrestlemania XIX they were out of it. You can say Stone Cold's final match(at the time) vs. The Rock at the latter event was closure that the company was now officially out of orbit and is no longer tied to the Attitude Era.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 28,925
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Post by Sephiroth on Mar 14, 2023 10:23:42 GMT -5
I’d mark the crash itself as happening in 02; the dynamic of the Monday night wars was gone and a lot of casual fans lost interest. And there was a major drain on star power as WWE sighed few of the biggest names of WCW and several of their big names were nowhere to be found for varying realms. But the fact that InVasion went as epically belly up as it did was the indicator that the party was over and a seismic shift was underway.
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Push R Truth
Patti Mayonnaise
Unique and Special Snowflake, and a pants-less heathen.
Perpetually Constipated
Posts: 39,290
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Post by Push R Truth on Mar 14, 2023 11:23:57 GMT -5
Rock vs Hogan at Mania was "peak" Wrestling for the 2000's... IMHO of course
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