Collision Episode 2 Rating (Takes a Pepsi Plunge)

[eJm]

Jun 28, 2023 12:03:04 GMT -5 tntchamp said:

Jun 28, 2023 9:34:33 GMT -5 eJm said:

Many of you aren’t really helping the case of why ratings threads annoy the hell out of us mods, I hope you realize that.

And I’ll say what I said about the “how to improve the AEW section” threads that go around; you can’t say “Oh, just ignore the bad stuff” when said bad stuff is becoming a big part of the section. You want to have good discussions with people? Stop being obvious provoking and with all due respect, you know who you are when you do it.

It doesn't seem to me like anyone on this thread is actually provoking or trying to bait. They are just pointing out a arguably legit point about the hypocrisy and double standards some people have when it comes to ratings thread.

The fact it always happens and always comes up and neither side learns anything from it makes it practically baiting in another way, to be honest.

It’s exceptionally boring is my point.

[XIII]

Jun 27, 2023 17:39:38 GMT -5 Dub H said:

Jun 27, 2023 17:05:40 GMT -5 eJm said:

WHY?! WHY COULDN’T YOU LET ME HAVE AT LEAST 24 HOURS OF JOY?!

We are a Heel Champ federation.

GOT TO BUILD THE HEEEEEEEEEAT

[Kalmia]

I don't think using rating arguments from 5 years ago as a stick to beat rating arguments from 2023 with is a good idea. TV has changed, metrics have changed, audiences have changed. It seems disingenuous to me.

[Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby]

Jun 28, 2023 12:48:45 GMT -5 Kalmia said:

I don't think using rating arguments from 5 years ago as a stick to beat rating arguments from 2023 with is a good idea. TV has changed, metrics have changed, audiences have changed. It seems disingenuous to me.

Hell, as someone who was there when Young Justice got canceled by Cartoon Network for attracting the wrong demographics, I think there's a very strong case that this is an example of Meltzer getting schooled and learning.

[polarbearpete]

Jun 28, 2023 12:48:45 GMT -5 Kalmia said:

I don't think using rating arguments from 5 years ago as a stick to beat rating arguments from 2023 with is a good idea. TV has changed, metrics have changed, audiences have changed. It seems disingenuous to me.

I brought up 2018 first (pre-AEW) just to illustrate that people were fine to bash WWE relentlessly in ratings threads (well-deserved at times of course) but that now in the ratings threads today we have people saying it’s so negative in these threads and even suggesting bans of ratings threads, when the discourse in here is so much more mild than those past threads. And I just find ratings/business metrics of the wrestling business to be extremely interesting to discuss and analyze (whereas others do not, which is fair).

As it relates to Meltzer pre-AEW, I think that was just a case of him thinking he knew what was important but then learning what actually was important to the networks and adjusting his viewpoint. Nothing wrong with that (except for maybe his tone/delivery in that tweet posted).

[Billie Gein]

I haven't seen much toxicity around the ratings discussions on here tbf, certainly haven't seen much in the way of tribal AEW-bashing that people are alluding to. Maybe I am always just late to the party and show up after the shit-flinging gets deleted. I think most people here would like the company to do well and succeed, most of the ratings threads barely go more than 1 or 2 pages

[Denny Zen is Cooking™]

Jun 28, 2023 13:27:36 GMT -5 Billie Gein said:

I haven't seen much toxicity around the ratings discussions on here tbf, certainly haven't seen much in the way of tribal AEW-bashing that people are alluding to. Maybe I am always just late to the party and show up after the shit-flinging gets deleted. I think most people here would like the company to do well and succeed, most of the ratings threads barely go more than 1 or 2 pages

In my somewhat limited exposure to the FAN forums, that's what always seems to happen in ratings threads here. The ratings threads here are relatively tame, with a couple of people taking some lighthearted jabs at AEW, and a couple others probably being a tad too overzealous in defending AEW from anything that could remotely be considered criticism. But, everything is really civil. 

Then, there's a collateral discussion of tribalism that never really happens on this forum. It's like people (admittedly myself included at times) are transposing their experiences on Reddit, Facebook, Twitter etc.. onto this forum, and then arguing against something that is never actually said here. 

In truth, AEW ratings are incredibly mundane. It has settled in as a high floor, low ceiling live television property that reliably attracts a core fanbase of 500,000 viewers to watch live each and every week, with 350,000 to 500,000 more who are more "casual" viewers. There is no indication that it will ever be much more than that, television rating wise, but that's a damn good thing to be in 2023, and exactly what WBD apparently wants. The problem is that AEW is exceedingly unlikely to go out of business any time soon, but is also exceedingly unlikely to surpass WWE. Provocateurs in ratings discussions fervently argue that one or the other is imminent, but neither is. 

[Kalmia]

Jun 28, 2023 13:11:58 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

Jun 28, 2023 12:48:45 GMT -5 Kalmia said:

I don't think using rating arguments from 5 years ago as a stick to beat rating arguments from 2023 with is a good idea. TV has changed, metrics have changed, audiences have changed. It seems disingenuous to me.

I brought up 2018 first (pre-AEW) just to illustrate that people were fine to bash WWE relentlessly in ratings threads (well-deserved at times of course) but that now in the ratings threads today we have people saying it’s so negative in these threads and even suggesting bans of ratings threads, when the discourse in here is so much more mild than those past threads. And I just find ratings/business metrics of the wrestling business to be extremely interesting to discuss and analyze (whereas others do not, which is fair).

As it relates to Meltzer pre-AEW, I think that was just a case of him thinking he knew what was important but then learning what actually was important to the networks and adjusting his viewpoint. Nothing wrong with that (except for maybe his tone/delivery in that tweet posted).

Half of the people back then have now left the board. There were as many posts by deleted members as still existing ones. It's like me complaining about women's wrestling threads getting creepy only for someone to dig up an old thread and say it used to be worse so why is it a problem now.

The board and it's posters have changed in five years so it just doesn't seem a fair comparison to me.

[polarbearpete]

Jun 28, 2023 13:43:26 GMT -5 Kalmia said:

Jun 28, 2023 13:11:58 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

I brought up 2018 first (pre-AEW) just to illustrate that people were fine to bash WWE relentlessly in ratings threads (well-deserved at times of course) but that now in the ratings threads today we have people saying it’s so negative in these threads and even suggesting bans of ratings threads, when the discourse in here is so much more mild than those past threads. And I just find ratings/business metrics of the wrestling business to be extremely interesting to discuss and analyze (whereas others do not, which is fair).

As it relates to Meltzer pre-AEW, I think that was just a case of him thinking he knew what was important but then learning what actually was important to the networks and adjusting his viewpoint. Nothing wrong with that (except for maybe his tone/delivery in that tweet posted).

Half of the people back then have now left the board. There were as many posts by deleted members as still existing ones. It's like me complaining about women's wrestling threads getting creepy only for someone to dig up an old thread and say it used to be worse so why is it a problem now.

The board and it's posters have changed in five years so it just doesn't seem a fair comparison to me.

That’s a fair point as well, but I don’t think it’s too out of line as a comparison. But if you look at threads for Raw ratings in late 2021 when they were hitting record lows, the threads are very similar and are populated with non-deleted members’ posts.

[UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm]

I don’t think the board members have changed so much as a ratings thread somehow ballooning into something like this is the type of stuff that has contributed to so many deletions.

As for the rating, honestly it is whatever. If there is a sustained lack of viewers for something they’re clearly putting as much time as dynamite into them sure, time to hit the panic button but it is the second show.

They’ve sure as shit got to get better at building next weeks collision each week though. Dynamite does an excellent job of that and I haven’t seen that with the Saturday show at all, enough so that it seemed peculiar. If you’re debuting a show you need to at least attempt to tell people what to tune in for the next episode.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Jun 28, 2023 13:49:35 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

Jun 28, 2023 13:43:26 GMT -5 Kalmia said:

Half of the people back then have now left the board. There were as many posts by deleted members as still existing ones. It's like me complaining about women's wrestling threads getting creepy only for someone to dig up an old thread and say it used to be worse so why is it a problem now.

The board and it's posters have changed in five years so it just doesn't seem a fair comparison to me.

That’s a fair point as well, but I don’t think it’s too out of line as a comparison. But if you look at threads for Raw ratings in late 2021 when they were hitting record lows, the threads are very similar and are populated with non-deleted members’ posts.

Even in 2021 wasn't that during the portion of the year where Monday Night Football was killing them? Because if so... a lot of people usually took that as pretty normal, much like when AEW has to go up against big NBA games or March Madness

But most people in the discourse threads for WWE wanted them to write a better show and the show itself would reap benefits and more people would watch, and since HHH seemed to take over a majority of the booking control (Barring the odd week Vince reaches through the Zoom screen and grabs him by the throat) the show is doing well, being received well, and now there's like no ratings discourse for RAW or Smackdown and there hasn't been for awhile

In AEW it feels like the standard is different these days, not as consistently here, but like if the show doesn't rise in numbers or hold tough it's the end times. Even in this thread the demo was 5th on cable and that's still a good thing, viewers also raised by the end of the show from where it started, etc. It's a "yikes" at face value, but there are a lot of things to look at in a lot of these threads

On top of that, if you just factor in that Warner loves the company right now, and that it's week 2 of a show, I don't think they're angry about the results, or see this as a problem and probably wouldn't if this was their expectation as a norm, much like how they view Rampage in the timeslot it is. I couldn't tell you that for sure though, I'm not at Warner HQ lol

In any case I don't think anyone here was denying there has been ratings discourse throughout the years, but that can also be true and I think forum members can also say that AEW's has been tedious as well, if you think it's hypocritical due to how RAW's got that's fair, but I'm sure back then people thought those were tedious as well, it doesn't exactly mean that it makes any AEW ratings discourse fun years later, is what I'd have to say to that.

To FAN's credit, they're still not on the level of Twitter or Reddit, if they were, these threads actually WOULD get banned lmfao

[The Ichi]

Honestly, I've never cared about ratings unless they're astronomically high or astronomically low, which hasn't happened since 2001 and 1995 respectively. However after enduring weeks of being told what a game-changer Collision would be, and (not so much here but) the hubris of Punk fans, I can't help but channel the "Is This Your King?" meme. Sorry.

[polarbearpete]

Jun 28, 2023 14:43:18 GMT -5 Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said:

Jun 28, 2023 13:49:35 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

That’s a fair point as well, but I don’t think it’s too out of line as a comparison. But if you look at threads for Raw ratings in late 2021 when they were hitting record lows, the threads are very similar and are populated with non-deleted members’ posts.

Even in 2021 wasn't that during the portion of the year where Monday Night Football was killing them? Because if so... a lot of people usually took that as pretty normal, much like when AEW has to go up against big NBA games or March Madness

Some quotes from a record low Raw rating thread going head to head with the NFL in 2021.

There are long term consequences for years of not giving a single shit about your product. Who f***in' knew??

You could put Jaguars/Jets on MNF & Raw would still do horribly. Stop looking for a complicated explanation when the simplest is usually the correct one, the show is one of the worst shows on tv & actively hates you.

Good riddance. All of these wrestlers deserve better.

Who would have thought telling the audience they don't care what they want and to tune out if they don't like it would have repercussions long term?

It is not the NOW that WWE has to worrie about it is 5-10yrs down the road.

The fans they keep driving away with their lifeless product drives them to the competition or other media in general and they do not return , they have steadly bled viewers year after year and no reason to believe the trend is going away.

A show entirely booked for the entertainment of a 76 year old isn't appealing to younger viewers. Who'd have thunk it?

Yeah, I've always held the belief that if Raw were worth watching, people would watch it, regardless of whatever else is on. The ratings might be worse during football season, but the ratings suck because the shows suck.

And not complaining about those posts, that’s just a way of showing that this discourse has happened equally if not moreso to Raw when the ratings were seen as poor but people still had meaningful discussions without people calling for the banning of ratings threads or the merging of ratings threads into one.

[stoptheclocks]

Jun 28, 2023 13:43:26 GMT -5 Kalmia said:

Jun 28, 2023 13:11:58 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

I brought up 2018 first (pre-AEW) just to illustrate that people were fine to bash WWE relentlessly in ratings threads (well-deserved at times of course) but that now in the ratings threads today we have people saying it’s so negative in these threads and even suggesting bans of ratings threads, when the discourse in here is so much more mild than those past threads. And I just find ratings/business metrics of the wrestling business to be extremely interesting to discuss and analyze (whereas others do not, which is fair).

As it relates to Meltzer pre-AEW, I think that was just a case of him thinking he knew what was important but then learning what actually was important to the networks and adjusting his viewpoint. Nothing wrong with that (except for maybe his tone/delivery in that tweet posted).

Half of the people back then have now left the board. There were as many posts by deleted members as still existing ones. It's like me complaining about women's wrestling threads getting creepy only for someone to dig up an old thread and say it used to be worse so why is it a problem now.

The board and it's posters have changed in five years so it just doesn't seem a fair comparison to me.

I don't think you need to go back five years to see that people's opinion on whether ratings are worth talking about or not changes from week to week and show to show. You only have to look at the previous couple of Rampage/Dynamite threads where those episodes did better than expected.

If you're happy to say a higher than expected rating is a big win for AEW, or a high quarter hour shows x angle is drawing interest... you should be able to handle a tiny number of posts that reasonably infer the opposite from a lower than expected rating. I don't think that's a particularly wild take.

And I still haven't seen anyone explain why someone who doesn't care about ratings and thinks discussing them is asinine, needs to click on a ratings thread.

[Final Countdown Jones]

Instead of banning ratings threads we could always ban meta analysis of the AEW board in threads that aren't about the AEW board.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Jun 28, 2023 15:00:00 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

Jun 28, 2023 14:43:18 GMT -5 Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said:

Even in 2021 wasn't that during the portion of the year where Monday Night Football was killing them? Because if so... a lot of people usually took that as pretty normal, much like when AEW has to go up against big NBA games or March Madness

Some quotes from a record low Raw rating thread going head to head with the NFL in 2021.

There are long term consequences for years of not giving a single shit about your product. Who f***in' knew??

You could put Jaguars/Jets on MNF & Raw would still do horribly. Stop looking for a complicated explanation when the simplest is usually the correct one, the show is one of the worst shows on tv & actively hates you.

Good riddance. All of these wrestlers deserve better.

Who would have thought telling the audience they don't care what they want and to tune out if they don't like it would have repercussions long term?

It is not the NOW that WWE has to worrie about it is 5-10yrs down the road.

The fans they keep driving away with their lifeless product drives them to the competition or other media in general and they do not return , they have steadly bled viewers year after year and no reason to believe the trend is going away.

A show entirely booked for the entertainment of a 76 year old isn't appealing to younger viewers. Who'd have thunk it?

Yeah, I've always held the belief that if Raw were worth watching, people would watch it, regardless of whatever else is on. The ratings might be worse during football season, but the ratings suck because the shows suck.

And not complaining about those posts, that’s just a way of showing that this discourse has happened equally if not moreso to Raw when the ratings were seen as poor but people still had meaningful discussions without people calling for the banning of ratings threads or the merging of ratings threads into one.

And in fairness, some of these posts were absolutely correct

Vince needed to go, he went, and now ratings and the overall product are so much more watchable, and enjoyable. At least to me, but I don't think I'm alone in that

I think the discourse is also different in the sense that a lot of people who were down on WWE in ratings threads blamed Vince and his booking, AEW ratings discourse can be like 7 different things at once sometimes, it's fascinating in a sense.

I again don't agree with the banning of ratings threads, but I see where the people who are fed up with it are coming from, because sometimes it feels like AEW can't win, even if they are, as far as we've seen, doing completely fine and no longer in any threat or danger of down ratings costing them dearly.

I do think if a rating is down there's merit to discuss why and people have here, memes make the threads more lighthearted, but sometimes they can derail, for one reason or another. I suppose what I'm saying is it's nice when they don't and people can be logical and reasonable, and as I said, FAN still is more than most other places, that's the funny thing about it all.

[polarbearpete]

Jun 28, 2023 15:36:40 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

Instead of banning ratings threads we could always ban meta analysis of the AEW board in threads that aren't about the AEW board.

Amen to that. Let’s give the people what they want and scrutinize why the demo went down .02 from one quarter to the next when Daniel Garcia appeared, and let’s rag on CM Punk for being trounced in the ratings by the Elite (day of the week be damned).

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Jun 28, 2023 15:42:27 GMT -5 polarbearpete said:

Jun 28, 2023 15:36:40 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

Instead of banning ratings threads we could always ban meta analysis of the AEW board in threads that aren't about the AEW board.

Amen to that. Let’s give the people what they want and scrutinize why the demo went down .02 from one quarter to the next when Daniel Garcia appeared, and let’s rag on CM Punk for being trounced in the ratings by the Elite (day of the week be damned).

Kojima already trounced CM Punk's balls, I think he's suffered enough

[Bo Rida]

Can we also ban threads about Tony Neese?
Or at least keep all the Tony Neese based discussion to one megathread rather than spilling over into unrelated threads.
Like you'll be reading about ratings and suddenly there's Tony Neese.

[khali]

Jun 28, 2023 15:36:40 GMT -5 Final Countdown Jones said:

Instead of banning ratings threads we could always ban meta analysis of the AEW board in threads that aren't about the AEW board.

Sometimes there’s more discussion about how we talk about AEW than actual talk about AEW.