ayumidah
Wade Wilson
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Post by ayumidah on Oct 11, 2023 3:02:34 GMT -5
One thing that got me about this segment was it was only a few weeks ago that a person in the crowd had a sign about quarters directed towards Max and he responded to it very negatively on Twitter. Feels weird that it'd get put into promos, in a way, so quickly after that, especially with everything else going on, but I don't know.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Oct 11, 2023 3:10:45 GMT -5
One thing that got me about this segment was it was only a few weeks ago that a person in the crowd had a sign about quarters directed towards Max and he responded to it very negatively on Twitter. Feels weird that it'd get put into promos, in a way, so quickly after that, especially with everything else going on, but I don't know. Maybe he thought he could spin it into a positive, which is what this was and is trying to be. He wants to overcome hatred in all forms and show it's not ok and you can overcome it if it's used against you I don't think it's a coincidence he's giving a speech on anti-semetic hate this Thursday
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UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm
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Post by UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm on Oct 11, 2023 4:27:22 GMT -5
as someone who has been constantly watching the news for the last week, the roll of quarters being pulled out didn't connect the dots at all since that is juice's thing
once it zoomed in, had his name and the commentators made the connection themselves... meh. i'm gonna stay out of this one because none of these people are obviously out there trying to make people feel like shit but you better make sure MJF runs all over these guys from now on
EDIT: it does actually bother me tbh but yeah, i'm gonna think optimistically because there's no way they would put Juice in that spot from now on as "the guy who said that to this person" because that would stick with his career forever, just like HHH with Booker T in storyline as someone else mentioned
stupidity? absolutely. no denying that
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Fake Jesus
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Fake Jesus on Oct 11, 2023 4:40:48 GMT -5
You know, it's a TV show. I can't imagine someone coming out and condemning Breaking Bad for having literal neo-Nazi villains. I think wrestling fans still struggle to understand that it's not real.
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UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm on Oct 11, 2023 4:43:16 GMT -5
You know, it's a TV show. I can't imagine someone coming out and condemning Breaking Bad for having literal neo-Nazi villains. without getting into politics here and acknowledging that neo nazis are still a gigantic issue around the world currently, this doesn't really work as a comparison. thousands of people have died in the last week.
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Fake Jesus
Dennis Stamp
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Post by Fake Jesus on Oct 11, 2023 4:52:46 GMT -5
You know, it's a TV show. I can't imagine someone coming out and condemning Breaking Bad for having literal neo-Nazi villains. without getting into politics here and acknowledging that neo nazis are still a gigantic issue around the world currently, this doesn't really work as a comparison. thousands of people have died in the last week. I mean you're literally getting a narrative where a Jewish guy is unequivocally portrayed as the hero and overcomes the antisemitic villains.
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UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm
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Post by UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm on Oct 11, 2023 4:58:43 GMT -5
without getting into politics here and acknowledging that neo nazis are still a gigantic issue around the world currently, this doesn't really work as a comparison. thousands of people have died in the last week. I mean you're literally getting a narrative where a Jewish guy is unequivocally portrayed as the hero and overcomes the antisemitic villains. hopefully. hopefully that's what we're getting but it still isn't wise to do when people are hostages, dying right this very minute and gaza probably won't exist in a week. nor do you need to take the hottest faction in the company and depict them as antisemitic villains when they were already one of the best parts of the show. not a soul in all of this is antisemitic but it goes a bit beyond the usual grey area of poor taste that one can find themselves swimming in when shit is happening right now
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clifford
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Post by clifford on Oct 11, 2023 5:01:27 GMT -5
Thank you to the Jewish posters on here for giving your opinions on this. They're really the only ones I feel like taking into account.
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Post by eJm on Oct 11, 2023 5:02:33 GMT -5
You know, it's a TV show. I can't imagine someone coming out and condemning Breaking Bad for having literal neo-Nazi villains. I think wrestling fans still struggle to understand that it's not real. I think that’s always been a really simplistic take because it takes away a lot of the factors of the creative and editorial process (something I will not go into) but the issue more comes from the fact that, historically, pro wrestling is not good with that and never has been. For every Kofimania (which, when you make your reason as the owner and onscreen character to not want Kofi to be pushed and you’re white as snow, you throw that thought into people’s heads even if you absolutely do not mean to), there’s Booker T, there’s the Nation, there’s Gang Wars, there’s a tonne of angles where Racism is just put out there but the racist doesn’t lose. In a time where the Jewish people have more representation but more abuse given towards them for various reasons, stuff like this has to be done with some sort of care but with all those examples (and examples from TNA and across the indies that are too much to get into), it’s easy to feel cynical about whether it’ll pay off well and even questioning if such a thing should be addressed at all. Not just on those grounds but because of pro wrestling being seen as more escapist than something like Law & Order or NCIS or something along those lines.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Oct 11, 2023 5:04:43 GMT -5
You know, it's a TV show. I can't imagine someone coming out and condemning Breaking Bad for having literal neo-Nazi villains. I think wrestling fans still struggle to understand that it's not real. In general I'd say that wrestling is the wrong medium for this level of stuff. People playing horrible characters in dramatic shows have much more of a firm seperation between the character and themselves rather than being their persona off of TV, and while I don't think they'll do anything more with this particular line of things given the reception, I honestly don't think it does Juice Robinson as a performer any favours to have his name associated with antisemitism in any capacity. What's more, winning a match against someone who'll be back the next week anyway doesn't have quite the same permanence as what can happen in a dramatic show, and as Platypus rightly pointed out, in a month's time the heels could be faces. I think you can invoke serious stuff in wrestling, hell, MJF telling the story for the first time was a strong moment for Max's development, but there's a point where you don't want to burden a performer or character with that. And tbh, I think there's more interesting stuff that can be done without it. Like, anti LGBTQ+ prejudice is one that's affected me, and I wouldn't enjoy a show where someone's homophobic or transphobic. They've still been able to do stories with LGBTQ+ characters without that though, and they shine as a result. In NJPW Cody played an incredible heel against the Golden Lovers without ever having to go into that territory, and more recently we had the whole QTV/Acclaimed bit which was utterly glorious. I don't think it would have worked anywhere near as well if Harley Cameron was burdened with her character being a homophobe rather than the elegant position of playing a confused egotist baffled that anyone couldn't be into her which still gave us a triumphant moment for a gay wrestler and character.
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Post by HMARK Center on Oct 11, 2023 5:07:48 GMT -5
The bad guy did a bad thing, the good guy will likely give him what he deserves for it.
If someone wants to say "the optics aren't good", then fine, I guess? But equating the bullying that Max had explicitly talked about being a personal issue for him, utilizing a gimmick that Juice already uses when he does the Left Hand of God punch, with what's going on in the Middle East feels more tasteless to me than Juice, the heel, being a prick to Max. The proudly Jewish babyface champion will get to use this to beat up a thoughtless, scumbag heel, which if anything with the news the way it is might be kind of cathartic for some to see said Jewish babyface overcome.
I don't know, I just get this vibe sometimes like some of us don't want heels to do really awful things; I get it if the issue is "I need to be able to cheer for this heel if they turn face one day, and if they go too far that'll be hard to do", but that's hardly what Juice did with this, he was just a prick towards someone who's been open about a traumatic experience they had as a kid. Plenty of escapist fiction utilizes some pretty brutal imagery, words, and actions derived from real life atrocities, and this wasn't in the same galaxy as some of that.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Oct 11, 2023 5:25:51 GMT -5
The line is kind of fuzzy. The segment itself was yes very poorly timed. And because MJF said what he said made it that way. The reason why I said fuzzy because it also has been a part of Juice's gimmick to KO people with a roll of quarters. I figure they partly tied into that but still doesn't make it good either. I see why people are angry about it and Tony should have not approved it.
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Oct 11, 2023 5:47:08 GMT -5
Other than for maybe three people in this thread, most of us with reservations about it aren't saying they deliberately tried to invoke the atrocities of the last few days. I'm sure the creative meeting was simply "You have a quarters gimmick and you spoke about how quarters were used against you in your childhood. Isn't that a neat parallel?" and that was that. But it was bad timing and unnecessary for the story. MJF was already spitting fire and giving the fired-up babyface promo of his career before the quarters ever left Juice's pocket. When something like this isn't needed to add heat to a story, why do it at all?
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Post by yokohamacpfc on Oct 11, 2023 6:05:38 GMT -5
You know, it's a TV show. I can't imagine someone coming out and condemning Breaking Bad for having literal neo-Nazi villains. I think wrestling fans still struggle to understand that it's not real. Whilst I think neo-Nazi antagonists worked for both Breaking Bad and Oz (among others) I doubt anyone on here wants to see a neo-Nazi heel in AEW or WWE and that speaks about both the uniqueness of pro wrestling compared to the other performing arts and the current era we are in where western race relations are not what they should be and global conflicts have accelerated (sucks for CJ Perry who nailed a Russian nationalist gimmick but can never play one again). Firstly the reason is the performers, there were such gimmicks in the territory days but nazi/commie gimmicks then could reinvent themselves as an All-American babyface in the promotion up the road and no one would care. Guys must have changed gimmicks loads back then going from hillbilly to rich kid, from gay to ladies man whenever they crossed state lines. Can't do that anymore if you play a nazi you are a nazi for good unless there's the mother of all repackages. As alluded to people see wrestlers as different to actors due to more of their real life personality going into the role. JK Simmons and Russell Crowe are not seen as nazis despite it being the role that made them famous. Wrestlers do not have this luxury they carry their past gimmicks with them for life hence the late Bray Wyatt getting "Husky Harris" chants. Which brings us to wrestling being performed in front of crowds. You run a real risk of a heated crowd so angry at this gimmick that it overshadows the show or an edgelord crowd cheering it for the sake of trolling it making your promotion look terrible. It wouldn't be entertaining. Wrestling as a morality tale is best suited to beating up the guy who wants your title/insulted your girl/spilled coffee on you/dragged your late father's coffin from a car... the absurdity of pro wrestling storylines make it a poor vehicle for highly charged political stuff and that has been proven again and again where every sensitive political angle (Iraqi Slaughter, La Resistance, Hassan) has been a critical flop. If you want politics in your entertainment then great - just leave it to movies and tv where the creators know what they are doing (with a few notable exceptions).
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Post by bearned on Oct 11, 2023 6:06:01 GMT -5
It didn’t even occur to me watching it that this would be something people would be upset about. On reflection, probably not the greatest idea given what’s transpired the last few days but personally, a dumb wrestling angle is pretty low down on the list of things to be totally outraged about right now…
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Post by mrtuesday on Oct 11, 2023 6:08:06 GMT -5
You know, it's a TV show. I can't imagine someone coming out and condemning Breaking Bad for having literal neo-Nazi villains. I think wrestling fans still struggle to understand that it's not real. There's a difference. Most TV shows and movies have a degree of sensitivity when dealing with these kinds of topics that have earned them some passes. Even going as far as to delay episodes that feature sensitive subjects when they are recent news headlines. Pro Wrestling has shows the subtly of a brick. They haven't earned the pass.
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
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Post by lucas_lee on Oct 11, 2023 6:20:43 GMT -5
The bad guy did a bad thing, the good guy will likely give him what he deserves for it. If someone wants to say "the optics aren't good", then fine, I guess? But equating the bullying that Max had explicitly talked about being a personal issue for him, utilizing a gimmick that Juice already uses when he does the Left Hand of God punch, with what's going on in the Middle East feels more tasteless to me than Juice, the heel, being a prick to Max. The proudly Jewish babyface champion will get to use this to beat up a thoughtless, scumbag heel, which if anything with the news the way it is might be kind of cathartic for some to see said Jewish babyface overcome. I don't know, I just get this vibe sometimes like some of us don't want heels to do really awful things; I get it if the issue is "I need to be able to cheer for this heel if they turn face one day, and if they go too far that'll be hard to do", but that's hardly what Juice did with this, he was just a prick towards someone who's been open about a traumatic experience they had as a kid. Plenty of escapist fiction utilizes some pretty brutal imagery, words, and actions derived from real life atrocities, and this wasn't in the same galaxy as some of that. I think no one would have an issue with this angle if what happened this week didn't happen. It's not a "people are offended to be offended" thing. I think you're very wrong with your take on this man and you missed the mark.
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Post by eJm on Oct 11, 2023 6:35:14 GMT -5
I think no one would have an issue with this angle if what happened this week didn't happen. I honestly don't think that's true, either. Especially from seeing some of the other posts on here and especially the reaction from the people around the time of All In with people who should know better desperate for a hate crime to happen in front of the largest crowd AEW's ever had. Just saying it'd be different if what happened didn't happen sort of ignores all that and the history of such a thing too.
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Post by mistery on Oct 11, 2023 7:12:31 GMT -5
Other than for maybe three people in this thread, most of us with reservations about it aren't saying they deliberately tried to invoke the atrocities of the last few days. I'm sure the creative meeting was simply "You have a quarters gimmick and you spoke about how quarters were used against you in your childhood. Isn't that a neat parallel?" and that was that. But it was bad timing and unnecessary for the story. MJF was already spitting fire and giving the fired-up babyface promo of his career before the quarters ever left Juice's pocket. When something like this isn't needed to add heat to a story, why do it at all? Pretty much how I feel about it. It definitely wasn't necessary. The best way to handle this going forward imo is to acknowledge that they f***ed up by letting that air, and make a donation to a charity that combats antisemitism. And I wouldn't be shocked if we see Tony dragged into a meeting with WBD over this either, considering the timing of this.
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lucas_lee
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Post by lucas_lee on Oct 11, 2023 7:13:27 GMT -5
I think no one would have an issue with this angle if what happened this week didn't happen. I honestly don't think that's true, either. Especially from seeing some of the other posts on here and especially the reaction from the people around the time of All In with people who should know better desperate for a hate crime to happen in front of the largest crowd AEW's ever had. Just saying it'd be different if what happened didn't happen sort of ignores all that and the history of such a thing too. That's true too, but most of the complaints are reasonable on here. It's a very select 1% that says something really out there
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