Swarm
Don Corleone
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 13:42:56 GMT -5
Sorry I made you vomit but Bret Hart was not a mainstream celebrity like Cena is. I loved Hart...he was my fav wrestler for a long time but he was no star. He helped make Austin a star so he was no chump...but he cannot be lumped in with Hogan, Rock, Austin and Cena. Better "worker"? yes. Better "pro wrester" than Cena...not even close. I didn't realize being a mainstream celebrity makes someone a great wrestler. When is Angelina Jolie getting the strap? Just because Daddy Warbucks(Vince) spends cash to put his top star on the movie screen doesn't make that guy a great wrestler. That is NOT what this business is about. You're missing the point. You see the word "wrestler" and you probably think "workrate"...I don't know. I see their word "wrestler" and I think "A guy or girl who's job is to entertain people to the point that at the end of the day they are willing to part with their hard earned money to see him/her whether it be to win or lose..." ...and if being a Main Stream celeb had nothing to do with wrestling then why has Donald Trump, Dennis Rodman, Karl Malone and Mike Tyson raked in millions over the years in wrestling angles? When a wrestler can cross over to the main stream pub that's huge for wrestling. Hogan proved it, Austin proved it, Rock proved it and now Cena is proving it...business is the best it has been in 5 years and that has a lot to do with John Cena, love him or hate him, the guy is a star. The same could never be said for Bret Hart. That is all I am saying.
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on May 21, 2007 13:53:27 GMT -5
In no way shape or form is Cena better than Bret
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Post by Harmonica on May 21, 2007 13:54:19 GMT -5
I didn't realize being a mainstream celebrity makes someone a great wrestler. When is Angelina Jolie getting the strap? Just because Daddy Warbucks(Vince) spends cash to put his top star on the movie screen doesn't make that guy a great wrestler. That is NOT what this business is about. You're missing the point. You see the word "wrestler" and you probably think "workrate"...I don't know. I see their word "wrestler" and I think "A guy or girl who's job is to entertain people to the point that at the end of the day they are willing to part with their hard earned money to see him/her whether it be to win or lose..." ...and if being a Main Stream celeb had nothing to do with wrestling then why has Donald Trump, Dennis Rodman, Karl Malone and Mike Tyson raked in millions over the years in wrestling angles? When a wrestler can cross over to the main stream pub that's huge for wrestling. Hogan proved it, Austin proved it, Rock proved it and now Cena is proving it...business is the best it has been in 5 years and that has a lot to do with John Cena, love him or hate him, the guy is a star. The same could never be said for Bret Hart. That is all I am saying. I don't agree with you on Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone, Plus Bret Hart was in Aladdin
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Post by Spankymac is sick of the swiss on May 21, 2007 13:54:22 GMT -5
In no way shape or form is Cena better than Bret Damn straight, Doom.
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Post by omglolwtfn00b on May 21, 2007 14:01:45 GMT -5
I just read that John Cena has passed Bret Hart as the 6th longest tenure as WWE Champion. Not in terms of one reign, but in terms of how long you have been champion all together. The only people ahead of him are Triple H, Pedro Morales, Hulk Hogan, Bob Backlund, and Bruno Sammartino. Wow... that really sucks. Why exactly does this suck? He's apparently a genuinely nice guy in a business full of scumbags. You never hear of him attempting to screw fellow workers over or make them look bad. Quite the reverse, in fact. As is often pointed out, Cena justifies his push based on the revenue he draws in comparison to others on the roster, not to mention the truly unique (and always loud) crowd reactions he inspires. Finally, despite all the stick he gets on this forum for his in-ring ability, he has a knack of always delivering in big match situations. Seriously, when you take all this into account, it's totally baffling that John Cena gets the amount of stick he does. Sure, different people have different preferences, but to say it sucks that someone who fits all the necessary main event criteria is enjoying great success seems insane to me.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on May 21, 2007 14:04:14 GMT -5
I didn't realize being a mainstream celebrity makes someone a great wrestler. When is Angelina Jolie getting the strap? Just because Daddy Warbucks(Vince) spends cash to put his top star on the movie screen doesn't make that guy a great wrestler. That is NOT what this business is about. You're missing the point. You see the word "wrestler" and you probably think "workrate"...I don't know. I see their word "wrestler" and I think "A guy or girl who's job is to entertain people to the point that at the end of the day they are willing to part with their hard earned money to see him/her whether it be to win or lose..." ...and if being a Main Stream celeb had nothing to do with wrestling then why has Donald Trump, Dennis Rodman, Karl Malone and Mike Tyson raked in millions over the years in wrestling angles? When a wrestler can cross over to the main stream pub that's huge for wrestling. Hogan proved it, Austin proved it, Rock proved it and now Cena is proving it...business is the best it has been in 5 years and that has a lot to do with John Cena, love him or hate him, the guy is a star. The same could never be said for Bret Hart. That is all I am saying. Reminds me of what a promoter told Foley, "If people wanted to see your Goddamn trampoline act, they'd buy a ticket to see Cathy Rigby" As far as mainstream appeal goes, that's a little sketchy, you see, most of the folks who watch Hogan and Rock movies are.......wrestling fans. The people who bought the Chyna, Sable and Torrie Playboys.....wrestling fans made those mags sell the way they did. Which was proven by the huge flop the girls became when they tried to leave the cocoon of wrestling and enter the mainsteam. At the end of the day, the marquee says "wrestling" and that's what counts. Just because Bret Hart never released an awful rap album, doesn't make Cena the better wrestler.
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Jiren
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Hearts Bayformers
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Post by Jiren on May 21, 2007 14:05:31 GMT -5
You're missing the point. You see the word "wrestler" and you probably think "workrate"...I don't know. I see their word "wrestler" and I think "A guy or girl who's job is to entertain people to the point that at the end of the day they are willing to part with their hard earned money to see him/her whether it be to win or lose..." ...and if being a Main Stream celeb had nothing to do with wrestling then why has Donald Trump, Dennis Rodman, Karl Malone and Mike Tyson raked in millions over the years in wrestling angles? When a wrestler can cross over to the main stream pub that's huge for wrestling. Hogan proved it, Austin proved it, Rock proved it and now Cena is proving it...business is the best it has been in 5 years and that has a lot to do with John Cena, love him or hate him, the guy is a star. The same could never be said for Bret Hart. That is all I am saying. Reminds me of what a promoter told Foley, "If people wanted to see your Goddamn trampoline act, they'd buy a ticket to see Cathy Rigby" As far as mainstream appeal goes, that's a little sketchy, you see, most of the folks who watch Hogan and Rock movies are.......wrestling fans. The people who bought the Chyna, Sable and Torrie Playboys.....wrestling fans made those mags sell the way they did. Which was proven by the huge flop the girls became when they tried to leave the cocoon of wrestling and enter the mainsteam. At the end of the day, the marquee says "wrestling" and that's what counts. Just because Bret Hart never released an awful rap album, doesn't make Cena the better wrestler. Well said
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:06:18 GMT -5
You're missing the point. You see the word "wrestler" and you probably think "workrate"...I don't know. I see their word "wrestler" and I think "A guy or girl who's job is to entertain people to the point that at the end of the day they are willing to part with their hard earned money to see him/her whether it be to win or lose..." ...and if being a Main Stream celeb had nothing to do with wrestling then why has Donald Trump, Dennis Rodman, Karl Malone and Mike Tyson raked in millions over the years in wrestling angles? When a wrestler can cross over to the main stream pub that's huge for wrestling. Hogan proved it, Austin proved it, Rock proved it and now Cena is proving it...business is the best it has been in 5 years and that has a lot to do with John Cena, love him or hate him, the guy is a star. The same could never be said for Bret Hart. That is all I am saying. I don't agree with you on Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone Well they earned 600,000 buys for WCW so you do the math.
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Post by Cheeto Smith on May 21, 2007 14:06:24 GMT -5
two things
1. I'm glad people are paying attention to this statistic, even if in disappointment. I've always thought this was a much more important measure than the number of times somebody won and lost the title. (of course, it isn't the perfect measure*)
2. As a person who no longer watches WWE, I consider myself to have something of a "mainstream" perspective and I can tell you that John Cena is not a mainstream star. Almost nobody who isn't a wrestling fan has any idea who he is. The Marine was not enough to make people stand up and take notice. The closest thing to a household name the WWE has right now is Vince McMahon and even he is iffy. By my count, there have been exactly 4 wrestlers that can be properly considered to have penetrated the mainstream, they are Hogan, Andre, Rock, and Austin (in that order). Cena is nowhere close to this.
*the perfect measure is number of title matches won. I've never heard anybody offer a statistic as to who has won the most WWE championship matches. But whoever he is, that man is the best of all time.
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Post by Harmonica on May 21, 2007 14:09:03 GMT -5
I don't agree with you on Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone Well they earned 600,000 buys for WCW so you do the math. oh ok, Didn't know that but what about Jay Leno, and Bret Hart was in Aladdin how much exposure can he get, he is so main stream dudester.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:10:00 GMT -5
You're missing the point. You see the word "wrestler" and you probably think "workrate"...I don't know. I see their word "wrestler" and I think "A guy or girl who's job is to entertain people to the point that at the end of the day they are willing to part with their hard earned money to see him/her whether it be to win or lose..." ...and if being a Main Stream celeb had nothing to do with wrestling then why has Donald Trump, Dennis Rodman, Karl Malone and Mike Tyson raked in millions over the years in wrestling angles? When a wrestler can cross over to the main stream pub that's huge for wrestling. Hogan proved it, Austin proved it, Rock proved it and now Cena is proving it...business is the best it has been in 5 years and that has a lot to do with John Cena, love him or hate him, the guy is a star. The same could never be said for Bret Hart. That is all I am saying. Reminds me of what a promoter told Foley, "If people wanted to see your Goddamn trampoline act, they'd buy a ticket to see Cathy Rigby" As far as mainstream appeal goes, that's a little sketchy, you see, most of the folks who watch Hogan and Rock movies are.......wrestling fans. The people who bought the Chyna, Sable and Torrie Playboys.....wrestling fans made those mags sell the way they did. Which was proven by the huge flop the girls became when they tried to leave the cocoon of wrestling and enter the mainsteam. At the end of the day, the marquee says "wrestling" and that's what counts. Just because Bret Hart never released an awful rap album, doesn't make Cena the better wrestler. I'm not saying because he was in a bad movie or released a bad rap album that makes his a better wrestler. he has succeded beyond what Bret accomplished money wise in this business and that, by business standards, makes him a better wrestler. More people in the general public know who John Cena is vs. the amount of people who knew Bret Hart was when he was on top. That makes him a better pro wrestler.
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on May 21, 2007 14:10:36 GMT -5
Bret hart was in a simpsons episode (when it was In it's prime BTW)
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on May 21, 2007 14:12:28 GMT -5
Reminds me of what a promoter told Foley, "If people wanted to see your Goddamn trampoline act, they'd buy a ticket to see Cathy Rigby" As far as mainstream appeal goes, that's a little sketchy, you see, most of the folks who watch Hogan and Rock movies are.......wrestling fans. The people who bought the Chyna, Sable and Torrie Playboys.....wrestling fans made those mags sell the way they did. Which was proven by the huge flop the girls became when they tried to leave the cocoon of wrestling and enter the mainsteam. At the end of the day, the marquee says "wrestling" and that's what counts. Just because Bret Hart never released an awful rap album, doesn't make Cena the better wrestler. I'm not saying because he was in a bad movie or released a bad rap album that makes his a better wrestler. he has succeded beyond what Bret accomplished money wise in this business and that, by business standards, makes him a better wrestler. More people in the general public know who John Cena is vs. the amount of people who knew Bret Hart was when he was on top. That makes him a better pro wrestler. Bret hart was on top during 1992 - 1997 aka The Dark Ages When the business ever becomes that bad and Cena still draws money i'll give him his due Untill then Bret > Cena
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Post by Harmonica on May 21, 2007 14:12:30 GMT -5
Bret hart was in a simpsons episode (when it was In it's prime BTW) also on MAD t.v
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on May 21, 2007 14:13:58 GMT -5
Reminds me of what a promoter told Foley, "If people wanted to see your Goddamn trampoline act, they'd buy a ticket to see Cathy Rigby" As far as mainstream appeal goes, that's a little sketchy, you see, most of the folks who watch Hogan and Rock movies are.......wrestling fans. The people who bought the Chyna, Sable and Torrie Playboys.....wrestling fans made those mags sell the way they did. Which was proven by the huge flop the girls became when they tried to leave the cocoon of wrestling and enter the mainsteam. At the end of the day, the marquee says "wrestling" and that's what counts. Just because Bret Hart never released an awful rap album, doesn't make Cena the better wrestler. I'm not saying because he was in a bad movie or released a bad rap album that makes his a better wrestler. he has succeded beyond what Bret accomplished money wise in this business and that, by business standards, makes him a better wrestler. More people in the general public know who John Cena is vs. the amount of people who knew Bret Hart was when he was on top. That makes him a better pro wrestler. I think what you mean is Cena is a better product than Bret Hart.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on May 21, 2007 14:14:44 GMT -5
Bret hart was in a simpsons episode (when it was In it's prime BTW) also on MAD t.v Don't forget his own documentary on his career.
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Post by Cypress on May 21, 2007 14:15:32 GMT -5
what he means is teenage girls love Cena and they never took to Bret, so that means hes a better wrestler
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Jiren
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Post by Jiren on May 21, 2007 14:17:52 GMT -5
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Swarm
Don Corleone
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:18:39 GMT -5
I'm not saying because he was in a bad movie or released a bad rap album that makes his a better wrestler. he has succeded beyond what Bret accomplished money wise in this business and that, by business standards, makes him a better wrestler. More people in the general public know who John Cena is vs. the amount of people who knew Bret Hart was when he was on top. That makes him a better pro wrestler. I think what you mean is Cena is a better product than Bret Hart. Fair enough. That is kind of what I am saying. The word "wrestler" and what it means to different people will always be subjective and I understand that. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Just talking about wrestling. It's cool.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on May 21, 2007 14:22:18 GMT -5
I think what you mean is Cena is a better product than Bret Hart. Fair enough. That is kind of what I am saying. The word "wrestler" and what it means to different people will always be subjective and I understand that. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Just talking about wrestling. It's cool. Ok, now that we have an understanding about that.......care to explain how wrestler can become to mean more than just in-ring performance? I think wrestling really takes place in a wrestling ring and not in the studio or on the set of a movie.
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