salTy
El Dandy
Posts: 8,425
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Post by salTy on May 9, 2007 13:32:53 GMT -5
John Cena sucks as a wrestler. He's a great marketing tool for kids, much like Barney the Dinosaur, but not a great wrestler.
The ability to bring in cash doesn't give someone great ability in the ring.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 9, 2007 13:34:02 GMT -5
Did you completely miss my point? I said that work rate does NOT equal success. I said ability/how good you are, and how successful you are are 2 completely different things. Therefore Cena can be the most successful wrestler on the planet, and currently he is, but that doesn't mean he's the greatest/best on the planet. And I don't think Bryan Danielson's the best worker either, for that matter. True. Another example of this is, there could be someone earning a 6 or 7 figure contract in the NBA right now, but then there could be some dude playing streetball that could school his ass. Not the same thing. In the NBA you get paid regardless of how the fans react to you. Cena is the man because he is both the top face and basically the top heel in the business at the same time. No one ever did that before and because of it he just helped sell the highest grossing PPV ever meanwhile Dirk just crapped the bed vs. GS but is still getting paid. His team however, is not because he sucked, and they are no longer in the playoffs. I see where you were trying to go with that bit it isn't the same thing.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 9, 2007 13:34:35 GMT -5
John Cena sucks as a wrestler. He's a great marketing tool for kids, much like Barney the Dinosaur, but not a great wrestler. The ability to bring in cash doesn't give someone great ability in the ring. Does he move the crowd?
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salTy
El Dandy
Posts: 8,425
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Post by salTy on May 9, 2007 13:36:26 GMT -5
John Cena sucks as a wrestler. He's a great marketing tool for kids, much like Barney the Dinosaur, but not a great wrestler. The ability to bring in cash doesn't give someone great ability in the ring. Does he move the crowd? Literally?
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Post by Captain Spaulding on May 9, 2007 13:36:28 GMT -5
*Damn*
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Post by Nice Guy Cody on May 9, 2007 13:37:43 GMT -5
John Cena sucks as a wrestler. He's a great marketing tool for kids, much like Barney the Dinosaur, but not a great wrestler. The ability to bring in cash doesn't give someone great ability in the ring. Does he move the crowd? You mean like this? youtube.com/watch?v=E6ZqMPz6sMUor this? youtube.com/watch?v=oP8NrtP8H7I
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on May 9, 2007 13:39:21 GMT -5
Yes he moves the crowd. He moves them to near-vomiting.
Im sorry, but I can never take any comments callnig cena the 'greatest wrestler' seriously.
And in response to your 'top face and heel' question- Hogan did it with the nWo. people hated him and loved him in unison. Austin did it in 2001- people wanted to hate him yet wanted to cheer him as well. Rock did it as Hollywood Rock- he'd come out, act heel, get cheered, put down the local town and get booed, then put down a face and get cheered again. Cena isn't hated for his character, he's hated because he sucks.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 9, 2007 13:40:43 GMT -5
If work rate = success then Danielson vs. Fat Elvis would have Main Evented WM and John Cena would be fighting in front of 15 people waiting in line at a lemonade stand in ROH. I like ROH don't get me wrong, but I'm not dumb enough not to know that wrestling is a business and in any business, your success is based on the amount of money you make for yourself and your company. And right now, that makes Cena the greatest wrestler on the planet. His ***** matches vs. Umaga and HBK don't hurt. Who cares? If there's one thing I've learned from the worlds of movies, music and all-around human psychology, it's that people in large groups are idiots, the majority is usually dead wrong, and if something is extremely mainstream and popular, it's likely because it's boring crap that's just pandering and repeating played-out fads to people who don't realize they've seen the same exact thing done better a million times elsewhere. Maybe I'm crazy, but I don't base my enjoyment of wrestling or anything else based on how much money mom and pop are willing to spend on 12-year-old Johnny's wrestling fandom. If he wants to buy replica John Cena spinner belts, that's fine. But it CERTAINLY doesn't suddenly mean after only two years on top (which is meaningless anyway, as it's the WWE and not the fans that put him there and kept him there) Cena MUST be recognized as the end-all, be-all greatest wrestler of all time, no questions asked. I care about what entertains me in wrestling, not what other people spend their money on. And what entertains me is what actual WRESTLING goes on INSIDE the match, not money that's getting passed around outisde it. This whole post makes no sense. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean there are millions of other people who do and who are willing to pay to see it. Cena is clearly the most over wrestler in the world right now and no amount of self taught life observations can change that. I totally get that a lot of people here hate Cena...and that's fine...but calling him a bad wrestler is ignorant as hell. Not only is he a great wrestler he is the best wrestler on the planet right now. Great matches...he draws huge...he works for a wrestling company...that makes him a great wrestler. It's not that complicated.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 9, 2007 13:41:38 GMT -5
Look, smark...if a guy gets a reaction it's called moving the crowd. What year did you start watching wrestling?
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Post by Tea & Crumpets on May 9, 2007 13:43:13 GMT -5
To be honest, he isn't a great ring worker. He's decent, but not great. His character and booking is the part of him that sucks.
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salTy
El Dandy
Posts: 8,425
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Post by salTy on May 9, 2007 13:49:08 GMT -5
Calling him a good wrestler is ignorant as hell to me. The best wrestlers are the ones that bring drama and realism to their matches. Cena is just a marketing tool. Vince pushes him to the top and tells everyone to cheer for him. The markish fans do as they're told, while the rest of us are sick of that mess.
Vince could put anyone in Cena's spot. It could be Charlie Haas in Cena's spot right now. Because I'll tell you, WE certainly didn't choose to have Cena as our top guy. It's not a spot he earned because people think he's a ring general.
He's sold and bought like Barney the Dinosaur.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 9, 2007 13:53:48 GMT -5
To be honest, he isn't a great ring worker. He's decent, but not great. His character and booking is the part of him that sucks. See that's cool...that's your opinion...and if we were talking about Londrick who no one pays a dime to see in the WWE I wouldn't have a point...but we're not...we're talking about a guy who has proved time and time again to be a huge draw and success for the WWE and who is helping make the company millions of dollars right now...so while you think his character and booking sucks, statistics shows otherwise and that's all I'm saying. Now the way Samoa Joe is booked...that part of him sucks because he could be helping TNA make some money, but he isn't.
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Post by Nice Guy Cody on May 9, 2007 13:55:26 GMT -5
This whole post makes no sense. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean there are millions of other people who do and who are willing to pay to see it. It makes perfect sense. Just because millions of people think one thing, doesn't make it true or right. It also doesn't mean everyone else has to think that way because they're entitled to enjoy whatever kind of wrestling they want, and NOT what some self-appointed speaker for the masses tells them to. What's hard to understand about that? I already put forth why making $$$ does not = best wrestler, but I'm gonna assume since you tried to dismiss my entire post with that limp "that doesn't make sense" line that you didn't actually bother to read what I said, saw it didn't agree with you and promptly dismissed it. HOW DID YOU KNOW?! Look. Some new wannabe iconoclast sheriff comes through this board at least once a month thinking they're gonna take it upon themselves to restore law and order by getting rid of all "smarks" who don't think like they do. Sorry, it's been done to death before you signed on. And it never works. Know why? Because not only am I a smark . . . but you are too. As is everyone on this entire board. if a guy gets a reaction it's called moving the crowd. What year did you start watching wrestling? Really? Cuz I was always of the opinion that, when a guy has been shoved down our throats for three years as a superlovable babyface that everyone in the audience unanimously wants to hug . . . and that crowds reaction to him instead is "f*** YOU, CENA", "BOOOORING" "WE'VE CENA NUFF" and "JOHN CENA SUCKS" sung in time to his music . . . well, that's not exactly the reaction they're trying to tell us to give.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 9, 2007 13:56:45 GMT -5
Calling him a good wrestler is ignorant as hell to me. The best wrestlers are the ones that bring drama and realism to their matches. Cena is just a marketing tool. Vince pushes him to the top and tells everyone to cheer for him. The markish fans do as they're told, while the rest of us are sick of that mess. This is the dumbest thing I have ever read on a wrestling message board. Are you seriously calling effing mind control? BAW GAWD VINCE DID IT AGAIN MIND CONTROL KANG! THE FANS ARE GOING CRAZY FOR CENA! BAW GAWD! STRAIGHT TO HAEELL! Give me a break.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 9, 2007 13:58:25 GMT -5
This whole post makes no sense. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean there are millions of other people who do and who are willing to pay to see it. It makes perfect sense. Just because millions of people think one thing, doesn't make it true or right. It also doesn't mean everyone else has to think that way because they're entitled to enjoy whatever kind of wrestling they want, and NOT what some self-appointed speaker for the masses tells them to. What's hard to understand about that? I already put forth why making $$$ does not = best wrestler, but I'm gonna assume since you tried to dismiss my entire post with that limp "that doesn't make sense" line that you didn't actually bother to read what I said, saw it didn't agree with you and promptly dismissed it. HOW DID YOU KNOW?! Look. Some new wannabe iconoclast sheriff comes through this board at least once a month thinking they're gonna take it upon themselves to restore law and order by getting rid of all "smarks" who don't think like they do. Sorry, it's been done to death before you signed on. And it never works. Know why? Because not only am I a smark . . . but you are too. As is everyone on this entire board. if a guy gets a reaction it's called moving the crowd. What year did you start watching wrestling? Really? Cuz I was always of the opinion that, when a guy has been shoved down our throats for three years as a superlovable babyface that everyone in the audience unanimously wants to hug . . . and that crowds reaction to him instead is "wax YOU, CENA", "BOOOORING" "WE'VE CENA NUFF" and "JOHN CENA SUCKS" sung in time to his music . . . well, that's not exactly the reaction they're trying to tell us to give. Ok so you don't get it. It's fine.
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Post by Nice Guy Cody on May 9, 2007 13:59:29 GMT -5
Are you capable of even arguing or formulating a point, or do you just respond to everything you disagree with by jamming your fingers in your ears and going "LALALALALALALA"?
So far, your "points" have been ground into hamburger, and the only response you have to offer is "That makes no sense", "That's the dumbest thing I ever read", "Look, Smark" and "Oh, you just don't GET it".
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Daemon
Trap-Jaw
Pimpin aint easy
Posts: 299
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Post by Daemon on May 9, 2007 14:01:41 GMT -5
Calling him a good wrestler is ignorant as hell to me. The best wrestlers are the ones that bring drama and realism to their matches. Cena is just a marketing tool. Vince pushes him to the top and tells everyone to cheer for him. The markish fans do as they're told, while the rest of us are sick of that mess. This is the dumbest thing I have ever read on a wrestling message board. Are you seriously calling effing mind control? BAW GAWD VINCE DID IT AGAIN MIND CONTROL KANG! THE FANS ARE GOING CRAZY FOR CENA! BAW GAWD! STRAIGHT TO HAEELL! Give me a break. Are you even reading the same post as everyone else? Somehow I doubt it seriously.
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Post by MGH on May 9, 2007 14:07:27 GMT -5
I understand your point...there are people who think Bryan Danielson is the best wrestler ever...those people are wrong Wasn't aware that an opinion could be incorrect, so thanks for that one. He makes enough to have not gone to WWE or TNA when at one point both showed interest in him. If you think bigger named indy workers don't make any money you're fooling yourself. You honestly expect me to believe you've ever watched a Bryan Danielson match when you say something that flat out incorrect? What the hell have you been watching? Or not watching more than likely in this case. ROH has not run in any type of venue like the one you're speaking of since it's earliest days in 2002 and veeeery early 2003 when they ran the rec center. Unless Japan, the Olympia in Liverpool, and the Manhattan Center are school gyms. Then by all means your point is made.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 9, 2007 14:09:39 GMT -5
It's fine if you disagree with me. Really. If you don't like Cena or don't think he is the greatest wrestler on the planet right now that is fine.
Not everyone understands business. You hear "wrestler" and think "work-rate". I hear "wrestler" and am smart enough to know it means "performer" and that "performance" is based on production and production = money.
You are a huge Cena fan and you don't even know it...want proof? I came here what an hour ago and you, with all your hate for Cena, took time out of your life to provide me with you tube tapes to prove your point as to how much Cena sucks. So if he sucks so much, why do you spend so much time giving attention to him?
Because you are a Cena fan. You love to hate him. People pay to cheer him and they pay to boo him. People take time out of their lives to defend him (like me) and others take time out of their life to bash him (you.) That's called being a fan even if that goes right over your head.
So both Cena and I thank you for the attention dawg. Good looking out. Nice to have you as a fan.
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Post by Hulkshi Tanahashi on May 9, 2007 14:11:05 GMT -5
I hate to go off-topic, but I would pay to see Bryan Danielson VS Fat Elivs.
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