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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 28, 2007 2:17:52 GMT -5
Yeah, sorry to make yet another thread concerning CM Punk, but I wanted to discuss something here that hasn't really been brought up yet concerning the whole "Punk's in the doghouse/Punk's doing perfectly fine" crap that's going around.
An interesting thought struck me today as I was reading the latest batch of "newz" concerning the health of Punk's push in ECW. In all of these newsbits, everything negative we hear about Punk has to do with his attitude towards veterans; most negative bits say that Punk is acting too big for his britches, so to speak, thinking too highly of himself without having first "paid his dues."
Well, that's when it struck me, folks.
I don't think we can look at someone like Punk the same way we can someone like, say, Bobby Lashley.
Here's the thing: before even making it to the WWE, Punk had a decent body of work behind him, all wrapped up in what I believe was a seven year career, busting his ass from the smallest of the small indies of suburban Chicago and the upper Midwest, to IWA: MS, to Ring of Honor, to TNA, to Europe, to Japan, and back again.
Think about that for a minute, a seven year career. Obviously, seven years isn't a lifetime, it's not the nearly two decades many stars have had, but it's certainly a considerable amount, especially when look at how extensively Punk traveled, how many different talents he worked with, the different kinds of crowds he worked, etc.
Now, take Bobby Lashley, someone who is indicative of WWE's current hiring policies of looking for look/flash over experience/substance. Lashley's career is essentially only as long as WWE's had it's eyes on him, far as I know, with nothing else (no tours of Japan, no participation in demanding indies, no exposure to many of the inner workings of the business, etc.) to prepare him for the role he would eventually fill. Hell, even with TNA, this was true of Monty Brown (now Cor Von...God, what an awful name), but it's basically become the way of life over at Titan Towers.
What's my point? My point is, let's take a look at some of the news bits about Punk and really think about them. Some are negative, some are positive, some sound extreme, some tame. Is it not reasonable to believe the truth lay somewhere in the middle?
My thinking is this: Punk, feeling he knows more than he's given credit for as a WWE rookie, likely said something that came off as egotistical to Finlay and/or Arn, and has likely spoken in the locker room as if he were a veteran, maybe cracking somewhat caustic jokes or something like that, because, well, in his eyes...he IS a veteran. To him, he likely looks at himself and sees a guy who's been around the world, wrestled all different kinds of matches against all kinds of different opponents, and who got over very quickly upon his debut in the biggest wrestling company in the world. Does he have anything to learn? Sure, but he also has a pretty solid idea what he's doing out there.
You may ask "But why didn't we ever hear something like this about Paul London or Spanky, both of whom fit those descriptions?", but neither of those guys received the push Punk did so soon upon debuting (I really don't count Spanky's days as a streaker and surviving five minutes against Brock Lesnar), and neither have received the kind of reactions he has, through what I feel is no fault of their own, but that's another story.
However, I'm not saying this to pin blame on Arn Anderson, Fit Finlay, or anyone in the ECW locker room who may not like Punk's tone.
No, my next point is that, as we established with Lashley, when you consider that the average "rookie" in the WWE right now is about as green as you can get, why shouldn't Arn, Finlay, and company expect the rookies to know their roles? These are guys who haven't traveled, haven't truly learned how to work yet, and really have no place saying "I think I have a better idea for what to do in this match". They're rookies in the truest sense of the word.
So put aside all the talk of who's holding who back, who's "mouthing off", who's doing anything like that; to me, all this talk about Punk is indicative of a wider issue concerning the WWE, and it's the practice of hiring inexperienced wrestlers, while treating experienced ones the same as they'd treat anyone else. To me, that's what's at the heart of this whole issue, if we can even call it that.
I'm not sure if anyone else is buying what I'm saying here, but, hey, that's why it's a discussion forum.
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JMA
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Post by JMA on Jan 28, 2007 2:32:03 GMT -5
I know what you're saying and I agree. Personally, I think that supporters of Arn and supporters of Punk leaked this information and painted who they liked as the victim.
As for the look vs. experience situation, it's one of the reasons why I think WWE should abandon its farm system. What they should do, in my opinion, is let indy wrestlers know that they're interested in them. WWE could encourage them to work in ROH or go to Japan, but NOT to join TNA or WSX. Once WWE feels the wrestler has improved enough, they could have him work dark matches for about six months, allowing him to get used to the style and learn how to fit in backstage. If the wrestler didn't meet these standards, WWE could release him after six months. If he did meet the standards, they could hire him and put him on TV.
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wwerules60
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Post by wwerules60 on Jan 28, 2007 2:53:50 GMT -5
I think most of these news stories are complete BS anyway. This past year alot of the newsites have been posting some really ridiculous stuff.
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"IcePic" Rick Cobos
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Post by "IcePic" Rick Cobos on Jan 28, 2007 3:01:32 GMT -5
agreed 1000% Hmark
I'm one of the biggest dirtsheet newssite defenders out there today, but I don't buy into Punk not having respect for talented legends and veterans; friggin' Harley Race was on the road with him, and Foley really went to bat for him, and I'm sure Steamboat gave strong recommendations for him as well.
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Post by Shark Jumpin' on Jan 28, 2007 3:10:22 GMT -5
I feel smarter for reading that.
And I agree.
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H-Fist
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Post by H-Fist on Jan 28, 2007 3:43:12 GMT -5
I agree. Assuming that the "leaks" aren't a work to set up a heel Punk feuding with vets as a transition to either the main event on ECW or into the midcard of one of the two main shows, that is.
The analogy I like to use is that a guy like Bobby Lashley being developed by WWE is a Rookie who came up through the farm system of a baseball team. They saw him as a blue-chipper, sent him straight to Double-A, and then called him up the following season. CM Punk, on the other hand, is the guy signed from overseas. He's had great success before other top-tier talent and has achieved a great deal in his own right, but is still a newcomer to the team's fanbase. First he's just a name who should be good, then he starts showing it. But since he is new to the league, he is a "Rookie."
Lashley or Cena is to Ryan Howard as CM Punk is to Hideo Nomo
Howard grew up playing the American style of game. It's all he knew. Then, when asked to play the same game on a higher level, he adjusted and succeeded rather quickly. Nomo, on the other hand, was a big fish in a small pond. He came in with high expectations, but needed to adjust to a whole new style of play before he could be judged fairly. His style was his own, and he was as experienced and wily a veteran as anybody, but was still considered a "rookie" by the bylaws.
The guys like Arn and Finlay who are used to the cookie-cutter rookies might not be aware of the issue. Punk is different. It's not that he's different and better, but rather that he's different and there aren't other guys in a similar boat in the company. How would the locker room as a whole respond if all the rookies (Shad, JTG, Spirit Squad, Lashley, Kozlov, etc.) were treated one way and Punk, also a New Guy, was treated like one of the boys?
I don't know where I fall on this. I don't see Anderson and Finlay as the cerebral cultural studies/sociology/human behavior types. They are just doing things they way they Should Be Done. Unfortunately, the business approaches a crossroads where that doesn't ncessarily work.
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Post by Timmy8271 on Jan 28, 2007 4:57:51 GMT -5
I agree on this as I can see both sides. There's a good chance Arn and Finlay have never seen ROH or IWA so they don't know how long he has worked and improved. When he comes in and is over, they probably think "It's just the smarts with the marks joining in." I can also see Punk's view and he thinks he's worked so hard for so long only to see Lashley as champion.
At the end of the day though, Punk is not a mcmahon born character like Lashley. Therefore, Mcmahon is going to choose Lashley or whatever character he made over Punk till Punk proves himself in a WWE ring.
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Post by curtrok on Jan 28, 2007 9:12:12 GMT -5
I was going to flame this thread but I decided against it. I'll just walk out now and hold my thoughts.
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nisi
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Post by nisi on Jan 28, 2007 13:01:58 GMT -5
Good post HMark. I agree. I think part of the difference is the wrestling job market, so to speak. Spanky and London like Punk also have a great body pf work behind them, but they made it clear WWE was a big goal for them, even knowing how WWE typically handled smaller wrestlers like them. Jamie Noble is another guy who made it clear he wanted WWE in spite of a great career elsewhere.
Punk was very established in the indy world and also reticent to give that up. He enters WWE both TO and WITH higher expectations--TO higher expectations from his established fanbase and WITH higher expectations for himself. The road agents essentially don't want their job complicated with this scenario, and you can't entirely blame them, although they probably deserve some of the criticism they get for being provincial and narrow-minded about a WWE product many would call stale.
I suspect this is a fairly typical workplace issue. Some employers hire experienced people, sometimes they hire rookies fresh out of school, and they tend to treat everyone like rookies in a new job. the frustration is natural.
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"IcePic" Rick Cobos
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Post by "IcePic" Rick Cobos on Jan 28, 2007 13:40:56 GMT -5
I was going to flame this thread but I decided against it. I'll just walk out now and hold my thoughts. Why would you flame something that makes sense?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 28, 2007 13:47:49 GMT -5
I agree with this analysis. When you consider that ECW tapes with Smackdown, I doubt that Punk is coming across as disrespectful or whatever, as he would've probably had a run in with the Undertaker by now if that were the case.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jan 28, 2007 13:56:47 GMT -5
I believe very much that he respects the veterns, but, I think he does really highly of himself, to the point where it may come off as arrogant.
My biggest point of this is the fact that he doesn't believe Raven made his career, and actually believes that pre-2003, he was a big star. And while a few people may know who he was, he was still a nobody in wrestling. And that's where some of the truth comes in. I believe he greatly respects Arn Anderson and Finlay. But I also feel he thinks he doesn't need any advice from them, because he's CM Punk. When Arn Anderson is giving you advice, you don't blow it off. And I believe he did, because he's the type of person it seems that would do that.
I also think that maybe because of that, Arn Anderson and Finlay used the "pay your dues" excuse in there. But even if we use the Bobby Lashley example, he lost a lot to Finlay during their feud, some fair, some not. But I think that may've been punishment for his attitude, and the rest of the story of him losing his push seems like it's gone away. And of course for anyone who watched ECW on Sci Fi, CM Punk has definitely NOT lost his push. Punk had a great wrestling match with Elijah Burke, probably the best match on television this week. Both men put on a great match, and both will be huge in the future. When they give CM Punk a good amount of time to tell a good story and have a good match with another great talent who's also being pushed in Burke, then YOU'RE NOT LOSING YOUR PUSH. Hell, even if they have a rematch next week and Burke wins, or maybe faces Matt Striker and he wins, and is still given the chance to have a good decent size match, it still doesn't mean he's losing his push.
So yeah, to me, I believe the arrogant thing, but not the loss of his push.
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Post by odanobunaga on Jan 28, 2007 13:58:36 GMT -5
Andrew, I have a question for you that it´s a lil off topic.
Why does you have this perception that either a guy wrestled to the WWE is a "Somebody" and someone who didn´t is a "Nobody"?
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jan 28, 2007 14:01:43 GMT -5
Andrew, I have a question for you that it´s a lil off topic. Why does you have this perception that either a guy wrestled to the WWE is a "Somebody" and someone who didn´t is a "Nobody"? Who here heard of CM Punk before the feud with Raven? Anybody. Anybody? Well, probably a few, but think about it. I'm not saying that you have to be in the WWE to be a somebody, but I feel that Punk was made into a somebody after his feud with Raven, while in ROH. So you can be a somebody in different places then the WWE. I'm just saying that Raven made his career and gave him that push to bigger and better things in his career, and made him from just another indy face to a star on the independant level.
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Post by odanobunaga on Jan 28, 2007 14:06:18 GMT -5
Well I never heard about his feud against Raven in ROH, I just watched sime of his indie matches against other indie guys and I saw a potential wrestler there. What made me a fan was his match against Rey Misterio and Eddie. Well anyway, carry on then . I tought you was saying "Either you are WWE or you suck" but I was wrong, my bad.
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Post by Arturo Classico on Jan 28, 2007 14:18:50 GMT -5
I agree to the select few CM Punk was zilch before Raven came around he was a glorified version of Chris Sabin with tatoos that it. He became a mic god after that and lets be honest in his matches versus the true IWC god Samoa Joe he carried his fat ass.
Although none of this got him over with the WWE crowd. What got him over is that everyone even kids and marks saw there something awesome in him and that he was the alternative to someone like Batista or Cena. Also girls think he's hot in the Hardy Boyz way so he's over with them. Basically he so easily likable who wouldn't like CM Punk he's the imtergration of Benoit and RVD that can actually talk on the stick.
Than why are all these internet reports? Because agents that are jealous of how over they are and never were as popular and never will be were upset with how he was getting pushed so fast.Alot these guys are old school and believe that you have to pay dues for awhile. However why did Finlay help build up Lashley? Because they knew he was just Goldberg and was all hype and little talent. Punk build his talent in the indies and get himself over and they see him as a threat because he might be a better wrestler than they could be and that he his so over with the crowd also coupled with the fact Vince loves Punk and does want to push him and probaly sees him as the next star.
See Punk was not built like Cena, Batista or Lashley was he has real wrestling skills unlike those guys and is able to connect with the fans in a way none of those three will ever do. So that why I think these reports are out there it's just jealousy by agents or fellow wrestlers.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Jan 28, 2007 14:21:22 GMT -5
I agree to the select few CM Punk was zilch before Raven came around he was a glorified version of Chris Sabin with tatoos that it. He became a mic god after that and lets be honest in his matches versus the true IWC god Samoa Joe he carried his fat ass. Although none of this got him over with the WWE crowd. What got him over is that everyone even kids and marks saw there something awesome in him and that he was the alternative to someone like Batista or Cena. Also girls think he's hot in the Hardy Boyz way so he's over with them. Basically he so easily likable who wouldn't like CM Punk he's the imtergration of Benoit and RVD that can actually talk on the stick. Than why are all these internet reports? Because agents that are jealous of how over they are and never were as popular and never will be were upset with how he was getting pushed so fast.Alot these guys are old school and believe that you have to pay dues for awhile. However why did Finlay help build up Lashley? Because they knew he was just Goldberg and was all hype and little talent. Punk build his talent in the indies and get himself over and they see him as a threat because he might be a better wrestler than they could be and that he his so over with the crowd also coupled with the fact Vince loves Punk and does want to push him and probaly sees him as the next star. See Punk was not built like Cena, Batista or Lashley was he has real wrestling skills unlike those guys and is able to connect with the fans in a way none of those three will ever do. So that why I think these reports are out there it's just jealousy by agents or fellow wrestlers. So, one fourth of the Four Horsemen was never as over as CM Punk?
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jan 28, 2007 14:30:30 GMT -5
I agree to the select few CM Punk was zilch before Raven came around he was a glorified version of Chris Sabin with tatoos that it. He became a mic god after that and lets be honest in his matches versus the true IWC god Samoa Joe he carried his fat ass. Although none of this got him over with the WWE crowd. What got him over is that everyone even kids and marks saw there something awesome in him and that he was the alternative to someone like Batista or Cena. Also girls think he's hot in the Hardy Boyz way so he's over with them. Basically he so easily likable who wouldn't like CM Punk he's the imtergration of Benoit and RVD that can actually talk on the stick. Than why are all these internet reports? Because agents that are jealous of how over they are and never were as popular and never will be were upset with how he was getting pushed so fast.Alot these guys are old school and believe that you have to pay dues for awhile. However why did Finlay help build up Lashley? Because they knew he was just Goldberg and was all hype and little talent. Punk build his talent in the indies and get himself over and they see him as a threat because he might be a better wrestler than they could be and that he his so over with the crowd also coupled with the fact Vince loves Punk and does want to push him and probaly sees him as the next star. See Punk was not built like Cena, Batista or Lashley was he has real wrestling skills unlike those guys and is able to connect with the fans in a way none of those three will ever do. So that why I think these reports are out there it's just jealousy by agents or fellow wrestlers. So, one fourth of the Four Horsemen was never as over as CM Punk? What you just said hit the nail on the head, though. Arn was over because of the Four Horsemen and Ric Flair. Without them, he'd have been as over as Brad Armstrong (who was a fantastic wrestler, but no one ever gave a crap about him).
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Post by mrpink on Jan 28, 2007 14:31:18 GMT -5
It always amazed me how someone "hasn't paid their dues" because they've only been in the E a year. Regardless of if they've been in the busines for a decade. Booker T hadn't "paid his dues" yet and that is why his title reign took so long for him to achieve. Booker has been in the business longer than almost everyone and was certainly deserving of a strong title run early on. Same goes for guys like Eddie and Benoit who had to wait years (five is usually the number) before getting their belts.
However, guys like Cena, Batista, Orton, Brock, and Lashley are WWE made and get the belts in like a year.
If it didn't happen in the E then it didn't happen and I always thought that was bull.
One exception though--Flair. Weird.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jan 28, 2007 14:33:36 GMT -5
It always amazed me how someone "hasn't paid their dues" because they've only been in the E a year. Regardless of if they've been in the busines for a decade. Booker T hadn't "paid his dues" yet and that is why his title reign took so long for him to achieve. Booker has been in the business longer than almost everyone and was certainly deserving of a strong title run early on. Same goes for guys like Eddie and Benoit who had to wait years (five is usually the number) before getting their belts. However, guys like Cena, Batista, Orton, Brock, and Lashley are WWE made and get the belts in like a year. If it didn't happen in the E then it didn't happen and I always thought that was bull. One exception though--Flair. Weird. Jericho is another exception. He never really moved down a peg from where he was in WCW. His career was a steady upward motion, until they turned him back into a midcarder.
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