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Post by Michael Coello on Feb 6, 2007 16:45:52 GMT -5
I agree. In the 80s. WWE only had a 1 hour show and it was mostly meaningless squash matches. That way when they had a PPV and all the superstars were facing eachother it was special. Realistically TNA can't go back to the squash match model of the past. Because todays audience doesn't have the attention span for it. So they pack the show full of mostly storylines, so when two guys finally face off at a PPV, it's worth buying. Only problem is I'm not ordering, Lance Storm isn't ordering, and neither are millions of other people. That's cause you are teh suckness!1 And Lance Storm doesn't buy because Canadian dollars don't count as real money. Seriously, Millions? There's like 1 million people who watch in general, and less than 10% buy the PPVs on average for everyone.
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Post by EZ: Brainy Bae on Feb 6, 2007 16:58:00 GMT -5
Personally I don't mind watching a free television show with a bunch of interviews/angles (and no awesome FREE matches) setting up the PPV that I plan to purchase...to see the matches. I think I speak for moret han myself when I say this, but I don't mind either. It's just that said interviews/angles are atrocious and do nothing to make me WANT to purchase the PPV. I haven't ordered a TNA PPV since Slammiversary, and I'm already saving up money for WM 23 because it INTERESTS me. TNA hasn't done that to me for months now, and considering how many people they have that CAN do it, it's pretty irritating.
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Feb 6, 2007 17:36:41 GMT -5
Look, if ts says "WRESTLING" on the TV show and plugs itself as "WE ARE WRESTLING" (not sports entertainment, then it had BETTER WAXING WELL HAVE SOME WRESTLING OR I AIN'T WATCHING. People won't buy the PPVs if they don't want to watch the free TV show in the first place, and when you have a 2:1 ratio of talking to fighting, you should call it a soap opera, not a sport.
Russo apologists make me sick. The man ruined one federation, and he'll soon be the death of another.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 17:54:58 GMT -5
Russo apologists make me sick. The man ruined one federation, and he'll soon be the death of another. WCW ruined itself. And TNA has been close to belly up about 10 times. I know that Russo has booked some dumb things. I just don't think he's the wrestling anti-christ that everyone makes him out to be.
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Feb 6, 2007 18:02:12 GMT -5
WCW ruined itself. And TNA has been close to belly up about 10 times. I know that Russo has booked some dumb things. I just don't think he's the wrestling anti-christ that everyone makes him out to be. Oklahoma. SE7EN. MIA. DAVID ARQUETTE AS WCW CHAMPION. VINCE RUSSO AS WCW CHAMPION. There's some examples of his brilliance. No wonder WCW died (and this board tends to retcon late WCW into being much better than it actually was with the constant "WWE sucks" mantra.
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Post by Person With A Hat on Feb 6, 2007 22:21:12 GMT -5
...and how wrestling fans are always gonna watch wrestling no matter how bad it is. This is probably the truest statement Russo has said, ever.
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Post by Jason Todd Grisham on Feb 6, 2007 22:59:15 GMT -5
WCW ruined itself. And TNA has been close to belly up about 10 times. I know that Russo has booked some dumb things. I just don't think he's the wrestling anti-christ that everyone makes him out to be. Oklahoma. SE7EN. MIA. DAVID ARQUETTE AS WCW CHAMPION. VINCE RUSSO AS WCW CHAMPION. There's some examples of his brilliance. No wonder WCW died (and this board tends to retcon late WCW into being much better than it actually was with the constant "WWE sucks" mantra. Mr. Backlund This is Your Life Mr. McMahon Vs. Austin Mick Foley as WWF Champion Rock as the Corporate Champion Stone Cold putting a fake gun on McMahon as he wets his pants Stone Cold spraying beer on the Corporation A Good Midcard For every good idea he's had a bad idea. The real difference is that in the WWF he had great talent and less politics that could make up for his crappy ideas.
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hollywood
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Post by hollywood on Feb 6, 2007 23:16:32 GMT -5
Oklahoma. SE7EN. MIA. DAVID ARQUETTE AS WCW CHAMPION. VINCE RUSSO AS WCW CHAMPION. There's some examples of his brilliance. No wonder WCW died (and this board tends to retcon late WCW into being much better than it actually was with the constant "WWE sucks" mantra. Mr. Backlund This is Your Life Mr. McMahon Vs. Austin Mick Foley as WWF Champion Rock as the Corporate Champion Stone Cold putting a fake gun on McMahon as he wets his pants Stone Cold spraying beer on the Corporation A Good Midcard For every good idea he's had a bad idea. The real difference is that in the WWF he had great talent and less politics that could make up for his crappy ideas. I'm not convinced Russo came up with all of those ideas himself. In fact, this is the first I've heard of it. But just for the record about him creating a good midcard--even when the WW(F)E was at its peak during the Attitude era, many people thought their midcard was pretty lacking. The IC belt lost all of its importance when it was tossed around every other week.
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Post by Jason Todd Grisham on Feb 6, 2007 23:20:00 GMT -5
Then I don't believe he was behind most of the stuff in WCW, he was working in committee after all. Why is his stuff in the WWF under question when he was Head Writer on both shows?
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hollywood
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Post by hollywood on Feb 6, 2007 23:22:52 GMT -5
Then I don't believe he was behind most of the stuff in WCW, he was working in committee after all. Why is his stuff in the WWF under question when he was Head Writer on both shows? Probably because he constantly defends all the stupid things he did there.
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Post by Jason Todd Grisham on Feb 6, 2007 23:30:17 GMT -5
And? Then he brags about the things he did in the WWF. Your point is?
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hollywood
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Post by hollywood on Feb 6, 2007 23:34:26 GMT -5
And? Then he brags about the things he did in the WWF. Your point is? Rather than go into a third Russo rant, I'll just point to my previous comments. I've made my feelings on Vince Russo perfectly clear. The man isn't as good as he's convinced himself he is. Period. EDIT: I'm with Lance Storm on the TNA boycott.
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Post by Jason Todd Grisham on Feb 6, 2007 23:45:20 GMT -5
Ah your last rant was on the final page and I missed it. So basically you say "I don't care about what he has to say I say he sucks." So you are making an argument devoid of all of the facts and coming to the conclusion you want? You admitted to not watching the full shoot. If you did you would know he mentions he basically wrote the whole script, McMahon proofread it (he gives a ton of credit to him) and the talent submitted their own ideas (who he also gives a lot of credit to). In fact before he wrote he took it to the talent to see what they thought. He's much more humble than you make him out to be. Just because he makes excuses for the bad things that happened in WCW.
Yes WCW sucked in the end. But he wasn't even booking a full year, only three months (where despite the crap ratings went up a full point) and then six months (where he was basically screwed and he knew there was nothing he could do). I do wish he would fess up to some of his mistakes. Actually he admited that he doesn't write finishes, I really want to know how so many DQ's happen whenever he books. But he is nowhere near as bad as he is made out to be. Keep in mind we had to go through Wrestlemania IX before he came along. He did do a lot of good, and a lot of bad. The man's a mixed bag. The problem is that too many people focus on his crap. Then they purposely ignore the things he did that were good.
I'm not necessarily defending him. Surely he is making mistakes in TNA right now that I don't like. He's writing a two hour show that's condensed to one hour. However I want his legacy to be balanced, and your view is anything but.
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hollywood
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Post by hollywood on Feb 6, 2007 23:55:15 GMT -5
Ah your last rant was on the final page and I missed it. So basically you say "I don't care about what he has to say I say he sucks." So you are making an argument devoid of all of the facts and coming to the conclusion you want? You admitted to not watching the full shoot. If you did you would know he mentions he basically wrote the whole script, McMahon proofread it (he gives a ton of credit to him) and the talent submitted their own ideas (who he also gives a lot of credit to). In fact before he wrote he took it to the talent to see what they thought. He's much more humble than you make him out to be. Just because he makes excuses for the bad things that happened in WCW. I'm gonna have to break this up to answer various points. I never said I don't care what he has to say. I listened to his entire interview with RD where he practically begged RD and anyone listening to plus just understand that he's really a good person who knows what he's doing, but in WCW he was always running into "da politics." No doubt he did deal with beauracratic BS, but he blames everything on it. After a while, it reaches a point where you just have to acknowledge that maybe you made a LOT of mistakes. My respect for the man declined during that interview. I got sick of his excuses and his incessant whining that no one can accept that David Arquette as World Champ was a good idea. So I'm sorry, but I'm not sitting through another hour-plus shoot interview on youtube. Not even ten minutes. I've heard it all before. I've also never said Russo's the only bad booker in the world. Stephanie McMahon is definitely awful, and Zandig is pretty bad, too. It's been said that Russo can create a fantastic first chapter, but it always falls apart in the end. That happened in WCW--twice, if you count his second fiasco. And now it's happened in TNA. I've never said my view was balanced. He's quite possibly the worst thing to ever happen to pro wrestling. Lance Storm is right. And Jim Cornette is right. That's my opinion. I could be wrong, but I don't think so. And I make no apologies.
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Post by Jason Todd Grisham on Feb 7, 2007 0:07:47 GMT -5
"I've heard it all before."
No, you haven't. And that's where you fail to form an opinion. I have no problem with people forming opinions, I form them all the time. Many facts can be taken both ways. I just prefer people form them owith all of the avaliable data. Which you don't seem to. In fact you admit you don't use all of the available data.
And where did I say you called Russo the only bad booker? That sounds like a Straw Man to me. Admit that Russo came up with good stuff in WWF, that's all I ask. Admit that Attitude would not have occured without him. Just like it wouldn't have occured without Austin, Rock, or Foley. Russo NEEDED them, and Russo admits it. Of course once again, you don't look at all of the facts.
But then again, that's just my opinion.
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Post by I Got Heat on Feb 7, 2007 1:55:13 GMT -5
He saved one dying company (WWF) and failed in saving another dying company (WCW). It's funny how we always get "Russo killed WCW!!!" but never "Heyman killed ECW!!!" or "Cornette had to switch promotions every year because his booking wasn't drawing money!!!" You know, the WWF was going the way of the XFL before Russo gained power and created The Attitude Era. One of, if not the biggest, money drawing eras in wrestling history. What he did for 9 months in WCW can never take that away from him. The wrestling business is about money, and he has made more money for the business than all your favorite bookers.
If Russo had never taken over in the WWF, Stone Cold would have been The Ringmaster for the rest of his career, The Rock would still be known as Rocky Maivia, and a lot of you may not have ever even become fans of wrestling.
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Boku AKA Da Green Guy
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Post by Boku AKA Da Green Guy on Feb 7, 2007 1:59:39 GMT -5
Nobody can claim that Stone nor Rock would have not gotten over without Russo, because we simply don't know if that's true or not.
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Post by I Got Heat on Feb 7, 2007 2:08:49 GMT -5
When Heyman is booking and guys get over he gets credit for the booking and their characters.. but Russo's Attitude Era booking "may have just happened anyway"?
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Boku AKA Da Green Guy
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Always and Forever, Hurricane.
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Post by Boku AKA Da Green Guy on Feb 7, 2007 2:09:47 GMT -5
I didn't say that either.
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Post by I Got Heat on Feb 7, 2007 2:19:45 GMT -5
If you're neutral here you gotta agree that people are always trying to find ways to strip Russo of his credit for that era. Honestly, there have been few cases of a booker ever making such an incredible change to one promotion. ECW is the only one that compares, but they never made close to the amount of money Russo brought in for the WWF. You can always sit back and say the WWF would have magically turned around, but that's much more speculative than saying WCW was going to die regardless of Russo being there. Which a LOT of people agree with, including myself.
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