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Post by 'Foretold' Joker on Jul 30, 2007 7:14:11 GMT -5
I was just watching Honky Tonk Man vs Steamboat where HTM wins the IC Title and it struck me as to why we don't see managers like Jimmy Hart, Bobby Heenan or Slick anymore.
'As HTM walked off with the IC Title Jesse Ventrua on commentary says ... Jimmy Hart is ecstatic he's got the tag team champions and now the intercontinental champion.'
Today it's all about the wrestler and there own goals and egos, if a manger is brought in it is usually as a love interest/valet, a translator or as a handler for some wildman.
The idea that the belts equal big bucks and stardom seem to have been lost along the way somewhere. The Managers were the stars at the time. Fans wanted to see The Weasel or Jimmy Hart get manhandled by the wrestlers more than the guys they had under there wing.
So after watching that I want to see a manager get himself over as a manager, not just to push some wrestler and then vanish. The closest we had recently was Paul Heyman who people probably hated more than Brock Lesnar.
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Jul 30, 2007 7:27:54 GMT -5
Great point.
Larry Sweeney in ROH is great at this, and would be just as great in that role in WWE. I know the guy's a wrestler everywhere other than ROH, but to me he's money like a young Heenan in the managing role.
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Post by Legion on Jul 30, 2007 7:51:16 GMT -5
Managers would work as long as the people they are managing need a manager. Shelton for example, can not work the mic very well. They gave him 'Momma' and he got a push and the crowd was into it. Granted, it was Momma that got the reaction, but a manager has to be able to get a reaction because the person they are managing cant manage it on their own.
Manager with charism + Wrestler with some talent = good crowd reaction and push.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2007 7:54:02 GMT -5
It's much harder to be a heel manager when heel gms and owners exist. The fans could boo a deceptive manager who could effect what happens in a match or two but that's small potatoes to a gm or owner who can rearrange the entire card, interfere at will, and hire a seemingly endless cavalcade of hired goons to beat up on the face of the moment.
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Bub (BLM)
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Jul 30, 2007 7:58:58 GMT -5
Speaking of... where the hell has Estrada been? Last time I watched RAW, he wasn't with Umaga.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2007 8:05:08 GMT -5
Speaking of... where the hell has Estrada been? Last time I watched RAW, he wasn't with Umaga. Wrestling in OVW. |
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Post by Loki on Jul 30, 2007 8:06:11 GMT -5
Managers seem to get canned as soon as they get equally or more over than their clients. It happened to Armando Alejandro Estrada and to an extent with Melina.
Sadly the times have changed, and after the rise of the evil owner/GMs, a manager cheating for his man is a minor offense. Not taking into account the ridicolous amount of run-ins and interferences we've been treated to during the Attitude Era.
Managers have lost their role of "catalysts" and are pretty much gone. Even the Divas have lost the initial appeal (blame it on the dime-a-dozen Barbie-wannabes)
WWE stopped caring about the midcard, and that's where managers were at their best... Guys who can't stand on their own legs needed a help, and people like Jimmy Hart, Bobby Heenan, Mr. Fuji, Slick etc were a bliss for midcard talents. Especially for those who were groomed as future main eventers.
Now it's a huge mess, with no real direction. Most of the guys who could need a manager are booked in such a careless way that makes useless the figure of a manager anyway...
If you have NOWHERE to go, what do you need a guide for?
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Post by Back to being Cenanuff on Jul 30, 2007 8:08:44 GMT -5
Speaking of... where the hell has Estrada been? Last time I watched RAW, he wasn't with Umaga. He was getting face pops while managing a monster heel, so the WWE took him off Umaga, then didn't have anything to do with him. Sucks when you're too good. |
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Post by samachine on Jul 30, 2007 8:14:12 GMT -5
I thought the whole point of a manager was to get their person over, not themselves...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2007 8:30:02 GMT -5
I thought the whole point of a manager was to get their person over, not themselves... Depends on what era we're talking about and where. Managers can be used to get the face or heel that they are opposing over more than the people they actually are managing (like Heenan and Hogan). Guys like Gary Hart, the Grand Wizard, Skandor Ackbar, and Jim Cornette were, more often than not, the real opponent for the face they opposed. |
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Jul 30, 2007 8:33:19 GMT -5
I thought the whole point of a manager was to get their person over, not themselves... If a manager gets over himself, then he can lend his heat to his charges that really need it. Would anyone has given two squirts about Nikolai Volkolff in 1994? No. Did working with DiBiase do get him at least a smidgeon of heat? Yes. |
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Post by mid-south on Jul 30, 2007 9:02:52 GMT -5
Managers also got talent over back in the day by there sheer presence. In the kayfabe era, fans thought that if Hennan or Slick saw some talent in the wrestler that can make them money, surely they must be at least decent wrestlers.
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Post by Dragonfly on Jul 30, 2007 11:34:34 GMT -5
I thought the whole point of a manager was to get their person over, not themselves... Depends on what era we're talking about and where. Managers can be used to get the face or heel that they are opposing over more than the people they actually are managing (like Heenan and Hogan). Guys like Gary Hart, the Grand Wizard, Skandor Ackbar, and Jim Cornette were, more often than not, the real opponent for the face they opposed. The latter part still holds true today, to an extent. Sting wasn't feuding with Abyss, he was feuding with James Mitchell. VKM wasn't feuding with Basham and Damaja, they were going after Christy Hemme. Bobby Lashley wasn't feuding Umaga, he was feuding with Vince and Shane, who were Umaga's managers by that point. Honestly, the only major promotion that routinely keeps the manager in the background is ROH. |
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Post by "Sweet & Sour" ImSoFudginGreat on Jul 30, 2007 11:40:59 GMT -5
Depends on what era we're talking about and where. Managers can be used to get the face or heel that they are opposing over more than the people they actually are managing (like Heenan and Hogan). Guys like Gary Hart, the Grand Wizard, Skandor Ackbar, and Jim Cornette were, more often than not, the real opponent for the face they opposed. The latter part still holds true today, to an extent. Sting wasn't feuding with Abyss, he was feuding with James Mitchell. VKM wasn't feuding with Basham and Damaja, they were going after Christy Hemme. Bobby Lashley wasn't feuding Umaga, he was feuding with Vince and Shane, who were Umaga's managers by that point. Honestly, the only major promotion that routinely keeps the manager in the background is ROH. ROH really is great at that, people like Larry Sweeney, J-train, Prince Nana, Daizee Haze, Lacey etc really added to the matches. |
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 30, 2007 11:48:40 GMT -5
Pay cuts. At the time, WWE was in a bind, and slashed the manager staff. They mostly left for WCW.
After that, WWE never really went back to it.
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Post by sexualvanilla on Jul 30, 2007 12:30:37 GMT -5
They also pretty much ditched them for diva managers but that doesn't work, even if they're meant to be heel. Even if they're, they're often put into pudding matches and other such nonsense, and no male is gonna boo you for being put in those positions. Also, if they feud with someone, it's not like there can be a real blowoff since women can't be hit (even if ECW did it anyways).
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Post by Mozenrath on Jul 30, 2007 12:31:48 GMT -5
They also pretty much ditched them for diva managers but that doesn't work, even if they're meant to be heel. Even if they're, they're often put into pudding matches and other such nonsense, and no male is gonna boo you for being put in those positions. Also, if they feud with someone, it's not like there can be a real blowoff since women can't be hit (even if ECW did it anyways). Depends. Haas did send Lillian for quite a ride.  |
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Post by texaswhopper on Jul 30, 2007 12:41:56 GMT -5
Check this out. This is an old promo and its the classic scenario of the manager talking for his wrestlers. See now in todays wrestling with managers to and far between every wrestler that can't talk well on a mic has too. Powers of Pain didn't say one word. Maybe how big they were just spoke volumes in itself. www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlvTTF5xkYg |
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Post by Big L on Jul 30, 2007 12:43:49 GMT -5
mangers? what?
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Post by Zutroy on Jul 30, 2007 12:46:09 GMT -5
Only example of a decent heel Manager in WWE i can find is Matt Striker with Big Daddy V. Thats working for me right now.
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