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Post by tarheelfan on Aug 19, 2007 16:42:44 GMT -5
If Benoit was so awesome than why did the promoters not book him near the top or at the top for most of his career? Doesn't that tell you that professional wrestling is more than just supposedly being technically sound. I think he was a great technical wrestler but the problem was that his matches were extremely predictable and you could see his moveset coming a mile away. Like I said before I have seen a lot of wrestlers who were just as technically sound but overall better. As far as where he trained in dojos that is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things as far as being able to be over with the mainstream audience. Did Flair or even Angle train in dojos? Yet, both of these guys are way more successful than Benoit ever was in the ring overall. As far as the internet it really only represents a vast minority of fans that actually watch the matches. Let me clarify again that I am not saying that he was not a good wrestler. He was a great technical wrestler but what held him back from being a true star to the masses is his lack of charisma and ring psychology IMHO. His matches never really felt that epic and if you saw one of his matches you seen them all because it was like a choreographed play. I guess maybe since I have watched wrestling so long that I am not impressed with Benoit since I have seen countless people as good as him. One of the best I have seen was Ricky Steamboat yet he had ring psychology something that Benoit lacked. Benoit was booked at the top in Mexico, and for some shows in NJ. He wasn't a heavyweight until the second half of his career which is why it didn't happen in America. Seriously, until Benoit how many lighter and smaller guys were ever pushed to the top in WWE or WCW? When he did get booked at the top in America, he was accepted, and it went fine. He was the subject of crappy booking though as he was in a fued with La Resistance, and was playing second fiddle to HHH/Eugene. You also can't compare the careers of him and Angle or Flair. Angle was a gold medalist, and was pushed from the beginning, Flair had already been around for 20 years when Benoint came around. The only difference between a dojo and a school is the name, and the fact that wrestlers sometimes live at dojos. Benoit's training history was mentioned many times. If you watch any wrestler, you have an idea of what formula they are going to take, and what they will do when(There was a time when I was calling Y2J matches move for move). Every wrestler seems formulatic, and there's a reason for that, so people know when to pop. I've found many of his matches to be epic, including his RR match with Angle, his SD match with Brock, his cage match with Angle, his 3-ways with HHH/HBK, his Super J Cup final with Sasuke, one of his matches with Sullivan, plus others. Your arguement is stupid, and I really don't know why I'm bothering. Why is my argument stupid? Please give facts. I'm sorry that I don't bow down to the school of thought that Benoit was some legend regardless irregardless of the end situation. Like I have said it is not that I am not a novice to watching wrestling. I have seen thousands upon thousands of matches and sorry to say that i don't think benoit stands out as being one of the best. I actually agree with you that his match with Sullivan was epic- a rarity for him IMHO. The reality is that there was a lot of great technical wrestlers before Benoit. I already named one example in Steamboat who was just as good technically as Benoit but was better because he had ring psychology also. Even gasp Steve Austin when he was Stunning Steve Austin in WCW was judt as great of a technical wrestler as Benoit was. The difference is that Austin wasn't as robotic like in his movesets. Being a good technical wrestler is one thing but just performing technical moves one right after another in a robot fashion is taking it to the extremes. And I am not ashamed or will back down from standing by that premise.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,304
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Post by The Ichi on Aug 19, 2007 17:16:08 GMT -5
From a buisness standpoint, it's wise, and you'd probably do the same if in Mcmahon's poisition. Besides, they can erase him from the companies existence, but they'll NEVER erase him from ours.
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Post by rzombie1988 on Aug 19, 2007 17:33:25 GMT -5
Benoit was booked at the top in Mexico, and for some shows in NJ. He wasn't a heavyweight until the second half of his career which is why it didn't happen in America. Seriously, until Benoit how many lighter and smaller guys were ever pushed to the top in WWE or WCW? When he did get booked at the top in America, he was accepted, and it went fine. He was the subject of crappy booking though as he was in a fued with La Resistance, and was playing second fiddle to HHH/Eugene. You also can't compare the careers of him and Angle or Flair. Angle was a gold medalist, and was pushed from the beginning, Flair had already been around for 20 years when Benoint came around. The only difference between a dojo and a school is the name, and the fact that wrestlers sometimes live at dojos. Benoit's training history was mentioned many times. If you watch any wrestler, you have an idea of what formula they are going to take, and what they will do when(There was a time when I was calling Y2J matches move for move). Every wrestler seems formulatic, and there's a reason for that, so people know when to pop. I've found many of his matches to be epic, including his RR match with Angle, his SD match with Brock, his cage match with Angle, his 3-ways with HHH/HBK, his Super J Cup final with Sasuke, one of his matches with Sullivan, plus others. Your arguement is stupid, and I really don't know why I'm bothering. Why is my argument stupid? Please give facts. I'm sorry that I don't bow down to the school of thought that Benoit was some legend regardless irregardless of the end situation. Like I have said it is not that I am not a novice to watching wrestling. I have seen thousands upon thousands of matches and sorry to say that i don't think benoit stands out as being one of the best. I actually agree with you that his match with Sullivan was epic- a rarity for him IMHO. The reality is that there was a lot of great technical wrestlers before Benoit. I already named one example in Steamboat who was just as good technically as Benoit but was better because he had ring psychology also. Even gasp Steve Austin when he was Stunning Steve Austin in WCW was judt as great of a technical wrestler as Benoit was. The difference is that Austin wasn't as robotic like in his movesets. Being a good technical wrestler is one thing but just performing technical moves one right after another in a robot fashion is taking it to the extremes. And I am not ashamed or will back down from standing by that premise. I already gave you facts in another post, and you skipped over them. But for fun let's post some of his accomplishments again: -Held titles in 4 different countries - US(World Champ in 2 promotions while being a smaller guy, which showed smaller guys can do it), Canada, Mexico, Japan(Including winning the J cup when the juniors were at their peak). -Headlined shows in NJ, WCW, WWF, and I believe ECW. -Had awesome matches vs Sasuke, Villano III, Brock, Angle, HHH/HBK, Liger, Sullivan, among many others. -Carried many different wrestlers of varied skills for quite a long period of time to passable and sometimes good matches. -Trained and passed two of the toughest wrestling schools in the world in the NJ dojo, and the Dungeon. Don't forget he was only the 3rd or so foreigner to pass the NJ test. -Won world titles in two different weightclasses. He did this in heavyweight(USA) and lightweight(Mexico) dominated countries. If all of that is not enough, then it's you, and there's no point in bothering any further. I am fully aware there were great technical wrestlers before Benoit, and nowhere did I say there wasn't. I still take Benoit over WCW Austin. I never found Benoit to be robotic, and I'm sure if you ask most of the internet you will find people with the same opinion. Benoit always showed more passion and intensity in his moves than most guys do.
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Crappler El 0 M
Dalek
Never Forgets an Octagon
I'm a good R-Truth.
Posts: 58,479
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Post by Crappler El 0 M on Aug 19, 2007 17:52:42 GMT -5
He was my favorite in WCW for a long time and I always liked him. I don't think they should honor him and pay further tribute to him, but they should acknowledge him in things like title history and they they should include him if they are playing an old PPV or an old Raw/Nitro on WWE 24/7.
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
Posts: 90,480
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Post by Chainsaw on Aug 19, 2007 17:59:04 GMT -5
Eventually, the WWE is going to have to acknowledge the fact that Benoit existed, and did a lot in the ring. It may take a decade or so, but they can't keep pretending that Benoit, nor Nancy or Daniel, didn't exist.
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Post by Loki on Aug 19, 2007 19:40:47 GMT -5
WWE's damnatio memoriae policy about Benoit is fully justified IMO.
No matter how professional and awesome he had been in his career, Benoit went out in the worst way possible: committing suicide after having murdered his wife and his son. How's that supposed to be glossed over by WWE? Even more considering pro-wrestling (and WWE themselves) have been blamed for the whole thing (with some ground actually) by the media.
So if WWE decide to keep Benoit in the title lineage, but not mentioning/showing him unless strictly necessary, I don't blame them one bit. He'll still be on DVD releases because they can't pretend he didn't exist, and it'd be impossible rewrite title histories and restage matces, but Benoit's presence will be kept to the lowest level possible. And rightfully so.
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Post by tarheelfan on Aug 19, 2007 20:19:43 GMT -5
Why is my argument stupid? Please give facts. I'm sorry that I don't bow down to the school of thought that Benoit was some legend regardless irregardless of the end situation. Like I have said it is not that I am not a novice to watching wrestling. I have seen thousands upon thousands of matches and sorry to say that i don't think benoit stands out as being one of the best. I actually agree with you that his match with Sullivan was epic- a rarity for him IMHO. The reality is that there was a lot of great technical wrestlers before Benoit. I already named one example in Steamboat who was just as good technically as Benoit but was better because he had ring psychology also. Even gasp Steve Austin when he was Stunning Steve Austin in WCW was judt as great of a technical wrestler as Benoit was. The difference is that Austin wasn't as robotic like in his movesets. Being a good technical wrestler is one thing but just performing technical moves one right after another in a robot fashion is taking it to the extremes. And I am not ashamed or will back down from standing by that premise. I already gave you facts in another post, and you skipped over them. But for fun let's post some of his accomplishments again: -Held titles in 4 different countries - US(World Champ in 2 promotions while being a smaller guy, which showed smaller guys can do it), Canada, Mexico, Japan(Including winning the J cup when the juniors were at their peak). -Headlined shows in NJ, WCW, WWF, and I believe ECW. -Had awesome matches vs Sasuke, Villano III, Brock, Angle, HHH/HBK, Liger, Sullivan, among many others. -Carried many different wrestlers of varied skills for quite a long period of time to passable and sometimes good matches. -Trained and passed two of the toughest wrestling schools in the world in the NJ dojo, and the Dungeon. Don't forget he was only the 3rd or so foreigner to pass the NJ test. -Won world titles in two different weightclasses. He did this in heavyweight(USA) and lightweight(Mexico) dominated countries. If all of that is not enough, then it's you, and there's no point in bothering any further. I am fully aware there were great technical wrestlers before Benoit, and nowhere did I say there wasn't. I still take Benoit over WCW Austin. I never found Benoit to be robotic, and I'm sure if you ask most of the internet you will find people with the same opinion. Benoit always showed more passion and intensity in his moves than most guys do. I guess it all boils down to ones perception. I think he was too robotic. There are no wrong or right perceptions. I respect his accomplishments but professional wrestling is more than chain wrestling. Professional wrestling IMHO involves three major elements to include ring skill whether one is a brawler, powerhouse, or technical wrestler. And ones ability to maximize whatever of those three skills they possess. The second element is charisma and the third element is ring psychology which encompasses the ability to tell a story in the match and connect with the crowd. Benoit obviously maximized his technical skills although maybe he should have been more spontaneous at times. IMHO Benoit lacked the charisma and ring psychology elements. I think he did great in Mexico and Japan but in america the sum of his career was mainly being a mid card wrestler with upper mid card status at times who had his 15 minutes of fame in both the WCW and WWE but not for long. And I think that had to do with what an earlier poster alluded to as his longevity in the sport. As far as being a smaller champion lets not forget that WCW made Davis Arquette champion and wanted us to believe that Kidman(an even smaller than Benoit) could go over Hogan. You are a knowledgeable wrestling fan and your opinion is just as valid as mine but please understand that not everyone found Benoit to be an interesting wrestler. And truthfully most of the mainstream audience would prefer a Lashley type to Benoit.
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Post by chickenwhopper on Aug 19, 2007 20:37:30 GMT -5
Giving him the recognition is the same as saying it's ok.
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Post by rzombie1988 on Aug 19, 2007 21:05:01 GMT -5
I already gave you facts in another post, and you skipped over them. But for fun let's post some of his accomplishments again: -Held titles in 4 different countries - US(World Champ in 2 promotions while being a smaller guy, which showed smaller guys can do it), Canada, Mexico, Japan(Including winning the J cup when the juniors were at their peak). -Headlined shows in NJ, WCW, WWF, and I believe ECW. -Had awesome matches vs Sasuke, Villano III, Brock, Angle, HHH/HBK, Liger, Sullivan, among many others. -Carried many different wrestlers of varied skills for quite a long period of time to passable and sometimes good matches. -Trained and passed two of the toughest wrestling schools in the world in the NJ dojo, and the Dungeon. Don't forget he was only the 3rd or so foreigner to pass the NJ test. -Won world titles in two different weightclasses. He did this in heavyweight(USA) and lightweight(Mexico) dominated countries. If all of that is not enough, then it's you, and there's no point in bothering any further. I am fully aware there were great technical wrestlers before Benoit, and nowhere did I say there wasn't. I still take Benoit over WCW Austin. I never found Benoit to be robotic, and I'm sure if you ask most of the internet you will find people with the same opinion. Benoit always showed more passion and intensity in his moves than most guys do. I guess it all boils down to ones perception. I think he was too robotic. There are no wrong or right perceptions. I respect his accomplishments but professional wrestling is more than chain wrestling. Professional wrestling IMHO involves three major elements to include ring skill whether one is a brawler, powerhouse, or technical wrestler. And ones ability to maximize whatever of those three skills they possess. The second element is charisma and the third element is ring psychology which encompasses the ability to tell a story in the match and connect with the crowd. Benoit obviously maximized his technical skills although maybe he should have been more spontaneous at times. IMHO Benoit lacked the charisma and ring psychology elements. I think he did great in Mexico and Japan but in america the sum of his career was mainly being a mid card wrestler with upper mid card status at times who had his 15 minutes of fame in both the WCW and WWE but not for long. And I think that had to do with what an earlier poster alluded to as his longevity in the sport. As far as being a smaller champion lets not forget that WCW made Davis Arquette champion and wanted us to believe that Kidman(an even smaller than Benoit) could go over Hogan. You are a knowledgeable wrestling fan and your opinion is just as valid as mine but please understand that not everyone found Benoit to be an interesting wrestler. And truthfully most of the mainstream audience would prefer a Lashley type to Benoit. Sorry, but I still don't agree with you. I saw people cry when Benoit won the title at WM20(Oh wait, according to wwe it was HHH vs HBK, what do I know). If that's not involving the crowd, I don't know what is. Every show I've attended Benoit was always over, and he always told good stories in the ring. Benoit was also always more than a chain wrestler. In most of his matches he hurts the guy's neck/shoulder and then softens it up for the cross face through suplexes and hard strikes. Benoit also had alot of variety in his arsenal. He's done moves like topes, different types of lucha styled submission holds, different strikes(including headbutts and chops to the face), he did the flying headbutt, suplexes, etc. I don't know what more you could possibly ask for. Benoit also had a ton of longevity. He was a pro for something like 20 years. He appeared in just about every promotion you could ask for including AAA, Stampede, NJ, WAR, WCW, ECW, UWA, WWE, and I'm sure there's even more. He may have not been the most charismatic but why would he even try to be? He was over, winning championships, and successful in so many different promotions. Yes, the mainstream(and McMahon) would prefer Lashley over Benoit. But Benoit was a millionaire, and probably more well known than Lashley(and sure is now unfortunately).
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max
Mike the Goon
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Post by max on Aug 19, 2007 21:10:18 GMT -5
Here's another thought: recognize him, and recognize his crime. Put down there with every mention "Later, investigations determined that he murdered his wife and son, before killing himself". Then, you're neither erasing him, nor are you praising his crime. Of course, the WWE isn't going to do that. This is the same operation that'll bury people that simply quit on them. I believe we all know, and have an opinion on what benoit did. It's patronizing to take the Stalinist approach, but since when is the WWE not patronizing? As for me, I mostly feel sorry for Benoit, and his family. I think it's horrible what he did, but I don't think it's right to hold hatred for him, either. I think it shirks responsibility of the WWE to simply try to sweep it under the carpet, but I also think it's wrong to hate him for doing something that so clearly was the act of a man who'd lost his mind, and his way. I remember him, I still enjoy his matches, and I feel sorry for what became of him.
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SAJ Forth
Wade Wilson
Jamaican WCF Crazy!
Half Man-Half Amazing
Posts: 27,214
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Post by SAJ Forth on Aug 19, 2007 22:09:06 GMT -5
WWE's damnatio memoriae policy about Benoit is fully justified IMO. No matter how professional and awesome he had been in his career, Benoit went out in the worst way possible: committing suicide after having murdered his wife and his son. How's that supposed to be glossed over by WWE? Even more considering pro-wrestling (and WWE themselves) have been blamed for the whole thing (with some ground actually) by the media. So if WWE decide to keep Benoit in the title lineage, but not mentioning/showing him unless strictly necessary, I don't blame them one bit. He'll still be on DVD releases because they can't pretend he didn't exist, and it'd be impossible rewrite title histories and restage matces, but Benoit's presence will be kept to the lowest level possible. And rightfully so. I Agree.
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Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 41,949
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Aug 19, 2007 22:12:01 GMT -5
Not right. They can pretend Benoit didn't exist all they like, but it's not like the media won't remember. Even if Benoit was in TNA when it happened, they'd just say he was part of WWE anyway.
You're already damned, so you might as well accept it and not deny us the chance to ever see Benoit again. If they cancel or f*** with the future boxed set PPVs releases, I'm gonna riot.
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Post by chunkylover53 on Aug 20, 2007 0:03:08 GMT -5
Didn't Jimmy Snuka kill his girlfriend and didn't Vince help cover it up? Can't see them eradicating The Superfly from all records, but then again it wasn't all over the media, if it did actaully happen that is. Take it for what its worth, but Jimmy Snuka's girlfriends death was officially ruled an accident. As far as Benoit goes, he'll be referenced when necessary, albeit in limited form. They should'nt completely erase him from history, but they shouldn't ignore how he left this World. They should NEVER put him in the Hall of Fame, even though his in ring career warrants it, and we all know why.
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Post by badantoineaccid on Aug 20, 2007 0:09:53 GMT -5
Give it time. Right now they are standing away from what happend as they should. Let things calm down a bit for a year or so and Benoit will be recognized as a wrestler and wrestler only. it may take a little while since Crush passed on, they mentioned you know who, which means they'll continue to keep him away from ever being noticed in the wrestling world again. BTW: Did anyone see the Nowinski story on ESPN?
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Post by hawkfan44 on Aug 20, 2007 0:56:34 GMT -5
even though Chris Benoit isn't my fav. wrestler, although he is still up there given his in-ring accomplishments; I think WWE is doing the right thing right now by not mentioning his name one bit. I think its very possible that sometime down the road, definitely not this year though, that sometime he'll be mentioned again by WWE. if it were to be an on-air thing I can't imagine what the reaction would be to his name? I'm guessing a Barry Bonds type reaction outside of San Francisco; mostly boos, some cheers.
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Post by macdaddysquid on Aug 20, 2007 1:38:45 GMT -5
I was going to make a Harry Potter joke then thought better.
Um.....
WWE can do what they want. We can choose to acknowledge Benoit just they choose no to.
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Post by Chilly McFreeze on Aug 20, 2007 1:57:02 GMT -5
I have no problem with WWE ignoring or erasing Benoit's accomplishments... he killed his wife and kid, I couldn't give a smurf how good a fake wrestler he was.
But that's just me.
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HRH The KING
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS
Posts: 15,079
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Post by HRH The KING on Aug 20, 2007 4:00:56 GMT -5
I have no problem with WWE ignoring or erasing Benoit's accomplishments... he killed his wife and kid, I couldn't give a smurf how good a fake wrestler he was. But that's just me. Me too
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Post by A Dubya (El Hombre Muerto) on Aug 20, 2007 4:26:52 GMT -5
I think it was necessary to not mention him on TV since it happened, but I don't think he should be edited out of the History of wrestling when he was a very large part of it at times. This is exactly the way I feel about the situation. I understand why they have to do it, but it seems a little ridiculous to act as if he never existed in the wrestling business.
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