ICBM
King Koopa
Didn't know we did status updates here now
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Post by ICBM on Jul 12, 2007 22:38:52 GMT -5
I just watched UFC unleashed tonight and I am sick to my stomache. The rules that UFC adopted have indeed made the events more entertaining but at the expense of real honest to God discipline and talent. The Hughs/Gracie match is a great example of this. I completely understand what led Big John to stop the match but knowing Royce's history, his discipline and having an understanding of how he works out of any situation tells me that despite the verdict of the match Royce would have won out had Big John not stopped it.
First Gracie gets a disadvantage by having to fight "No-Gui", he adapts anyway
Second Hughs capitalized on a huge mistake by Royce and took his back with about a minute left in the round. If there were no time limit alla original UFC no-rules rules he could have calmly waited this out, forced Hughs into a mistake and at least got back to his guard. Hughs knowing the round is ending rapidly starts swinginf like a drunk (but disciplined) sailor. Gracie did not panic, he protected himself the way he has trained to for 35 years and the fight was stopped because the new UFC conditions fans to believe that a man in Gracie's situation should give in.
Gracie had fought out of an armlock that would have tapped any other MMA fighter in the world. He can take a few punches.
Bottom line: After seeing this I understand why the Gracie's pulled out of UFC. I mean no insult to Matt Hughs, who is a great striker and a solid grapler. But Hughs would never have ever started grappling had it not been determined a long time ago that BJJ would halt and counter any other style. The fact that Hughs knows both styles so well and uses them so well is because of Roran, Rickson, Royce and the Gracie Jiu Jitzu style
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Jul 12, 2007 22:44:30 GMT -5
How is it a disadvantage to fight now gi?
IT would have made the fight more for Hughes as he could have a better grip on Gracie because of the Gi, and Hughes was an All American Wrestler.
I don't know how you could say this, Hoyce was definitely outclassed fight wise, and was getting pummeled with GnP by the freak of Nature Hughes.
This isn't the old UFC, the only way he could have got out of that situation was with a low blow.
they were on a flair playingfield, it's just that Gracie hasn't evolved at all as a fighter, and at his age, and with him being out of the game for so long it's understandable.
BJJ is not the be-all-end-all of MMA, it's a strong part of the game, but not THE GAME.
It wasn't a BJJ fight, it was an MMA Unified rules fight, and Gracie lost because he wasn't the better fighter.
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ICBM
King Koopa
Didn't know we did status updates here now
Posts: 12,288
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Post by ICBM on Jul 12, 2007 22:50:28 GMT -5
You have your belief I have mine.
No gui limits a great many chokes a BBJ fighter can employ.
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wwerules60
El Dandy
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Post by wwerules60 on Jul 12, 2007 22:59:27 GMT -5
I guess hair pulling and groin hits were "real honest to God discipline and talent". And Gracie only won all those early ones because no one knew of BJJ and couldn't defend it. Everyone back then also had only one discipline, now you have to know everything Royce is still one dimensional.
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Jul 12, 2007 23:02:58 GMT -5
You have your belief I have mine. No gui limits a great many chokes a BBJ fighter can employ. What? They got rid of the gi's because it would limit the freedom of movements for many a fighters. the Gracies moved from fighting without gi's, when Sakuraba basically exposed them as guys who haven't evolved as fighters. It's not called Brazillian Jui-jitsu. It's called Mixed Martial Arts. If this was a BJJ fight, i'm sure that Gracie would have won, but this was MMA. This was UFC, and it's different rules now than it was then. Hughes is a different class of fighter compared to the guys Gracie was fighting. He's a one dimensional fighter, that's what a lot of Gracies are, 1-d. Because they want to show the strength of BJJ because their Grandfather invented it. Hell Brazillian Top Team is based around BJJ, but they still involve more stand up, striking, and grappling in their training. Big Nog is the evolution of BJJ. |
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Post by Chris Decker-The Wild Rover on Jul 12, 2007 23:23:01 GMT -5
You have your belief I have mine. No gui limits a great many chokes a BBJ fighter can employ. What? They got rid of the gi's because it would limit the freedom of movements for many a fighters. the Gracies moved from fighting without gi's, when Sakuraba basically exposed them as guys who haven't evolved as fighters. It's not called Brazillian Jui-jitsu. It's called Mixed Martial Arts. If this was a BJJ fight, i'm sure that Gracie would have won, but this was MMA. This was UFC, and it's different rules now than it was then. Hughes is a different class of fighter compared to the guys Gracie was fighting. He's a one dimensional fighter, that's what a lot of Gracies are, 1-d. Because they want to show the strength of BJJ because their Grandfather invented it. Hell Brazillian Top Team is based around BJJ, but they still involve more stand up, striking, and grappling in their training. Big Nog is the evolution of BJJ. its sad to think big nog almost got KTFO last week buy freakin herring. if that ref would had been herb dean. that fight would had been stopped no doubt in my mind. when it comes to gracie/hughes now. I mean i see ICBM's points about no time limits and being able to escape in old ufc's. but royce also fought in PRIDE a few times where he was quite aware there was a time limit. and we can't deny how good matt hughes is too. i mean you saw how long he had the kimura in. and gracie stood completly calm knowing he could had broken his arm. and plus if matt had not killed him from the back mount with punches, he would had sliped in a rear naked and that would had been the end. and that would had only been worse with a gi on |
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livetowin
Dennis Stamp
Just Keep Walkin'
Don't be negatin'!
Posts: 4,430
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Post by livetowin on Jul 12, 2007 23:25:13 GMT -5
Thank you, Joekishi.  The whole reason Hughes let go of the arm is because Hughes did not want to break it. And then, you factor in the whole "Royce is getting the s**** beat out of him" factor. Show me how Royce could have gotten out of this, made Hughes tap, and go to Disneyland. |
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PRIME
Team Rocket
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Post by PRIME on Jul 12, 2007 23:25:41 GMT -5
I guess hair pulling and groin hits were "real honest to God discipline and talent". And Gracie only won all those early ones because no one knew of BJJ and couldn't defend it. Everyone back then also had only one discipline, now you have to know everything Royce is still one dimensional. 100% agree. I hate people not realizing the new rules don't make a damn bit of difference. Except for kneeing on the ground maybe, but Royce never used that. |
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Post by Chris Decker-The Wild Rover on Jul 12, 2007 23:33:12 GMT -5
I guess hair pulling and groin hits were "real honest to God discipline and talent". And Gracie only won all those early ones because no one knew of BJJ and couldn't defend it. Everyone back then also had only one discipline, now you have to know everything Royce is still one dimensional. 100% agree. I hate people not realizing the new rules don't make a damn bit of difference. Except for kneeing on the ground maybe, but Royce never used that. yeah lets ask Renzo Gracie how Frank Shamrocks elbows to the back of the head feel. I mean theres a reason why UFC is running the arco arena, and not small crazy fight clubs. i'm not gonna be the guy who will go on about when ufc first debuted "I LOVED WATCHING SHAMROCK AND SEVERN". cause i never did. I never really got into Ufc untill actually when GSP beat Matt Hughes. i mean i had been following it, but it was around then i started to like it. Sorry for the rant but I like the fact that every fight isn't noah thomas and marlon sims. just fighting for fighting. |
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What?
Don Corleone
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Post by What? on Jul 13, 2007 3:08:14 GMT -5
The game evolved, Gracie didnt and I honestly believe it's that simple. Although watching UFC 60 live last year I was shocked that Hughes won and even more shocked it was so quick.
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Post by x on Jul 13, 2007 3:25:25 GMT -5
Gracie got his ass kicked. He's an old guy. Of course. But he would've had more of an advantage with a gi on because in Jiu-Jitsu there is many chokes that you can use with the sleeves and collar of it.
Someone had pointed out that they outlawed gis in MMA to increase mobility. You should be able to choose how mobile you want to be. If you want to lose some speed but increase the chance of a tapout then by all means wear a gi.
I'm not saying Gracie would've won or lost with a gi. He just would've had a better chance.
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Post by Maskanodel on Jul 13, 2007 4:43:21 GMT -5
Your own gi can also be used against you. There's a reason Don Frye didn't wear a gi against Hidehiko Yoshida, mainly because there were a dozen different gi chokes Yoshida could have used on him. Sure a gi can be an advantage, but it can be a disadvantage as well.
And as much as I dislike Matt Hughes, can't deny the man's talent. He has no official rank in BJJ, but by all accounts he rolls at a Back Belt level in training. He won the fight, fair and square.
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Post by x on Jul 13, 2007 5:35:20 GMT -5
Yes. But you know as well as I know, Hughes wasn't ever going to tap out Gracie. Especially not with a gi choke.
I don't deny that Hughes is a good fighter. I deny that he is a great fighter.
In his last title run he defended his belt twice. Once against Joe Riggs who sucks and once against BJ who was horribly out of shape and got blown up after the second round.
He held the belt 1 year and 7 months and had 3 fights.
Greatest Champion Ever my ass.
Dan Henderson would kill him.
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Zane
Team Rocket
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Post by Zane on Jul 13, 2007 10:03:34 GMT -5
Yes. But you know as well as I know, Hughes wasn't ever going to tap out Gracie. Especially not with a gi choke. ..............Did you NOT see the armlock Hughes had Gracie in for a full minute? He would've tapped sooner or later. |
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Post by Angus Mcloud on Jul 13, 2007 10:56:42 GMT -5
Yes. But you know as well as I know, Hughes wasn't ever going to tap out Gracie. Especially not with a gi choke. ..............Did you NOT see the armlock Hughes had Gracie in for a full minute? He would've tapped sooner or later. Gracie would of had his arm broke and the ref would have stopped it i don't think he would have tapped. I was in denial for along time but Hughes beat him fair 100% legit. |
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Post by odanobunaga on Jul 13, 2007 12:12:35 GMT -5
Man I have VIDEO PROOF that Gracie wasn´t getting hurt and was suceffuly defending himself.
Heck, when I was in Jiu Jitsu class, my teacher was teaching the students how to defend ourselves from punches from the back and from the front in guard/montada position. And he said(and I quote) "Just watch what Royce Gracie does when he is in this situation. You cannot panic. You must defend and hold on, until you find a way out. The one who is getting desesperate is your oponent not you."
BJJ > All American, well, in my opinion anyway. And if you mean the better fighter THAT NIGHT, then I can agree.
Oh and about the Gi, as a BJJ praticioner, I can tell you: It makes no difference whatsoever. The ones I used only helped to retain the impact of some throws and that´s it. There isn´t any chokes or extra moves that you cand do in it, at least if the other guy isn´t wearing a Gi.
EDIT: And for all you folks calling Royce onde dimensional...Do you guys understand how he thinks or fight? He will not trade punches if someone superior. He knows that he can only beat then by his techinique, especially now that he is a old guy. Calling someone "One Dimensional" because he beat a bunch of people doing what he think is right is very disrespectfull. He made his choice, that´s how he likes to fight.
He could easily walk the path of other brazilian fighters and learn muay thai or other disciplines.
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B.A.
Grimlock
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Post by B.A. on Jul 13, 2007 12:27:57 GMT -5
Man I have VIDEO PROOF that Gracie wasn´t getting hurt and was suceffuly defending himself. Heck, when I was in Jiu Jitsu class, my teacher was teaching the students how to defend ourselves from punches from the back and from the front in guard/montada position. And he said(and I quote) "Just watch what Royce Gracie does when he is in this situation. You cannot panic. You must defend and hold on, until you find a way out. The one who is getting desesperate is your oponent not you." very true |
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Post by Psy on Jul 13, 2007 12:35:49 GMT -5
You have to remember that now UFC answers to the sporting commission and have to follow their rules in addition to their own. That's a large reason why a lot of rules have changed.
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Post by odanobunaga on Jul 13, 2007 12:38:09 GMT -5
You have to remember that now UFC answers to the sporting commission and have to follow their rules in addition to their own. That's a large reason why a lot of rules have changed. In my opinion, I love the new rules. But I still think that the stoppage is still something controversial. I´ve seen tons of times were the ref SHOULD have stopped the match(See Sakuraba´s K1 debut.) and others he should continue the match. |
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Jul 13, 2007 13:59:06 GMT -5
Yes. But you know as well as I know, Hughes wasn't ever going to tap out Gracie. Gracies NEVER tap out. It's how they were raised. tHe Ref for this fight was Big John McCarthy, he's trained in BJJ and other forms of fighting, and he's always looking at the situation at hand before it becomes something of a tragedy. I know it's his discipline and it's a big part of the MMA game... |
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