Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 15:07:31 GMT -5
Getting a reaction from a crowd is moving the crowd. That's what it means.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 15:05:11 GMT -5
Show me where this is what his fan base is made of. I think with my heart and my head, not my wallet. That's fine but your heart and your head don't pay the bills bro. I appreciate your stance and understand where you are coming from...I just happen to disagree. be cool.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 15:02:53 GMT -5
Ok I didn't want to disclose a lot of personal info about me here but I'll say this... in my line of work I talk to clients everyday...I talk to about 2k people a month about finance...and when you talk finance you really have to be cool with someone and make them comfortable... so things like football, baseball, wrestling, MMA...that comes up all the time... and I'm talking I'm rapping with people in all 50 states...people know who Cena is. When I was going to Mania there were people who didn't watch wrestling who knew about it, knew about the hair vs. hair match and knew about John Cena. I feel, imo, he is a mainstream celeb. Maybe I'm wrong. But in my experience, he is. People know who the guy is. I just don't feel like Bret Hart (who I was as big a fan of then as I am of Cena now) had that kind of power. Do I think anyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong or anyone who thinks Cena passing Hart is wrong for feeling that way... No of course not. I'm just stating my case as to why I think the guy deserves the spot and I'm happy for him. Be cool. swarm But if those people don't watch wrestling.....he doesn't really have that appeal. For instance, I know full well who Michael Jordan is, but I don't watch basketball and never have and probably never will. His star power hasn't drawn me to basketball. Knowing who someone is and what they do doesn't make them a star. I agree. But you have to try. That's what business is. Maybe you didn't watch Jordan but a lot of people did and he was great for the NBA. The company I work for owns the Cleveland Cavs...drafted Lebron James...and ya know what...we do 1.2 Billion dollars a month in business in part because we are attached to that and him. It's just business. That's all it is.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 15:00:38 GMT -5
No, it's not. You need to go back and read the whole thread. If your logic isn't flimsy then where's your counter argument? I just think Cena has cross over appeal and his is very good for the current state of the business....his movie has something to do with it but not everything. The numbers are up and he moves the crowd. If you want to boo him fine...but when you do you are helping put money in the guy's pocket because you want to see him lose. When the day comes that all these people who boo him stop watching, stop going to the shows, then he will be a failure. Until then he has proved to be nothing short of a success story in pro wrestling. I'm not trying to change your mind.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:55:54 GMT -5
Ok I didn't want to disclose a lot of personal info about me here but I'll say this... in my line of work I talk to clients everyday...I talk to about 2k people a month about finance...and when you talk finance you really have to be cool with someone and make them comfortable... so things like football, baseball, wrestling, MMA...that comes up all the time... and I'm talking I'm rapping with people in all 50 states...people know who Cena is. When I was going to Mania there were people who didn't watch wrestling who knew about it, knew about the hair vs. hair match and knew about John Cena. I feel, imo, he is a mainstream celeb. Maybe I'm wrong. But in my experience, he is. People know who the guy is. I just don't feel like Bret Hart (who I was as big a fan of then as I am of Cena now) had that kind of power. Do I think anyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong or anyone who thinks Cena passing Hart is wrong for feeling that way... No of course not. I'm just stating my case as to why I think the guy deserves the spot and I'm happy for him. Be cool. swarm I'm the President of the United States and I have the CIA investigate who does and doesn't know about John Cena on a weekly basis. And weekly briefings tell me that hardly anyone knows who he is... :-) Anecdotal evidence is as anecdotal evidence does. Ok man. You hate Cena. I get it. It's cool.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:54:16 GMT -5
Half of the crowds in the country booed Mike Tyson, Micheal Jordan, Barry Bonds...but they paid to see them. Same with Cena. Doesn't make him any less of a star. The fact is, for a guy like me, John Cena no longer holds any interest for me, because I'm no longer 8-years old and I'm not a desperately lonely woman. Show me where this is what his fan base is made of.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:52:46 GMT -5
It was a WWE movie you...I mean...you know this right? The whole movie was always based on his being the main actor. You didn't know that? Jesus... Listen, don't get condescending with me because your logic is flimsy. Your argument is that he's such a big cross-over star because he was in a movie. No, it's not. You need to go back and read the whole thread.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:51:52 GMT -5
Half of the crowds in the country booed Mike Tyson, Micheal Jordan, Barry Bonds...but they paid to see them. Same with Cena. Doesn't make him any less of a star. Nice circular argument. You were the one who said that he was great because he can work a crowd. I'm just pointing out the fact that those crowds he's so great at working don't seem to like him. Oh, and half of the crowds in this country NEVER booed Jordan, even when he was on the road... Yes they did.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:51:06 GMT -5
Ok I didn't want to disclose a lot of personal info about me here but I'll say this...
in my line of work I talk to clients everyday...I talk to about 2k people a month about finance...and when you talk finance you really have to be cool with someone and make them comfortable...
so things like football, baseball, wrestling, MMA...that comes up all the time...
and I'm talking I'm rapping with people in all 50 states...people know who Cena is. When I was going to Mania there were people who didn't watch wrestling who knew about it, knew about the hair vs. hair match and knew about John Cena.
I feel, imo, he is a mainstream celeb. Maybe I'm wrong. But in my experience, he is. People know who the guy is. I just don't feel like Bret Hart (who I was as big a fan of then as I am of Cena now) had that kind of power.
Do I think anyone who doesn't agree with me is wrong or anyone who thinks Cena passing Hart is wrong for feeling that way...
No of course not.
I'm just stating my case as to why I think the guy deserves the spot and I'm happy for him.
Be cool.
swarm
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:41:01 GMT -5
No he's not! No one saw that movie! And who did he beat out for that part again? It was a WWE movie you...I mean...you know this right? The whole movie was always based on his being the main actor. You didn't know that? Jesus...
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:39:56 GMT -5
With that said if Cena couldn't go in the ring, and he certainly can, this would all be for nothing. But the guy has great matches and works a crowd better than anyone in the business. Half of the crowds in the country boo him. Half of the crowds in the country booed Mike Tyson, Micheal Jordan, Barry Bonds...but they paid to see them. Same with Cena. Doesn't make him any less of a star.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:34:01 GMT -5
And by the way, John Cena is so not a household name. Don't fool yourself. Who exactly did he beat out for that part in The Marine again? Sure he is. C'mon. Maybe not Hogan level or Rock level but he will be. He's well on his way.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:33:29 GMT -5
Well they earned 600,000 buys for WCW so you do the math. How much money did Leno bring in? How about the "No Limit Soldiers"? How about David Arquette? Correlation doesn't equal causation. The fact that a few celebrities were on a pay per view and it did 600,000 buy doesn't means that celebrity sells wrestling pay per views. If that were true the Arquette pay per view would have done huge numbers. You have to look at other independent variables and I would argue that the fact that WCW was coming off a hot streak where Goldberg had just won the title had as much or more to do with the buyrate as the celebrities did. I see what you are saying. Not every celeb is going to draw. You use some strong examples. But WCW did draw 600,000 buys using Rodman and Malone. They were considered huge success'. I read it in WO. Maybe if I can find the issue I can elaborate on it.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:30:51 GMT -5
Fair enough. That is kind of what I am saying. The word "wrestler" and what it means to different people will always be subjective and I understand that. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Just talking about wrestling. It's cool. Ok, now that we have an understanding about that.......care to explain how wrestler can become to mean more than just in-ring performance? I think wrestling really takes place in a wrestling ring and not in the studio or on the set of a movie. I'm not saying being in a movie makes you a great wrestler. I am saying that it always will be and always has been the goal to attract a NEW audience...the casual fans... Us...we're here. We aren't go anywhere. It's the casual fans who are drawn to wrestlers who make the cross over and it's those fans and thier interest in this wrestler that get them to give RAW, or WM a chance...the hope being that the cross over star (Cena) will draw enough interest that when casual fans tunes in, they like what they see, stay tuned in and become one of us. Bret Hart didn't have that kind of power. Cena does. With that said if Cena couldn't go in the ring, and he certianly can, this would all be for nothing. But the guy has great matches and works a crowd better than anyone in the business. Are his matches better than Hart's? It's subjective. But that isn't the point.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:18:39 GMT -5
I'm not saying because he was in a bad movie or released a bad rap album that makes his a better wrestler. he has succeded beyond what Bret accomplished money wise in this business and that, by business standards, makes him a better wrestler. More people in the general public know who John Cena is vs. the amount of people who knew Bret Hart was when he was on top. That makes him a better pro wrestler. I think what you mean is Cena is a better product than Bret Hart. Fair enough. That is kind of what I am saying. The word "wrestler" and what it means to different people will always be subjective and I understand that. I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Just talking about wrestling. It's cool.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:10:00 GMT -5
You're missing the point. You see the word "wrestler" and you probably think "workrate"...I don't know. I see their word "wrestler" and I think "A guy or girl who's job is to entertain people to the point that at the end of the day they are willing to part with their hard earned money to see him/her whether it be to win or lose..." ...and if being a Main Stream celeb had nothing to do with wrestling then why has Donald Trump, Dennis Rodman, Karl Malone and Mike Tyson raked in millions over the years in wrestling angles? When a wrestler can cross over to the main stream pub that's huge for wrestling. Hogan proved it, Austin proved it, Rock proved it and now Cena is proving it...business is the best it has been in 5 years and that has a lot to do with John Cena, love him or hate him, the guy is a star. The same could never be said for Bret Hart. That is all I am saying. Reminds me of what a promoter told Foley, "If people wanted to see your Goddamn trampoline act, they'd buy a ticket to see Cathy Rigby" As far as mainstream appeal goes, that's a little sketchy, you see, most of the folks who watch Hogan and Rock movies are.......wrestling fans. The people who bought the Chyna, Sable and Torrie Playboys.....wrestling fans made those mags sell the way they did. Which was proven by the huge flop the girls became when they tried to leave the cocoon of wrestling and enter the mainsteam. At the end of the day, the marquee says "wrestling" and that's what counts. Just because Bret Hart never released an awful rap album, doesn't make Cena the better wrestler. I'm not saying because he was in a bad movie or released a bad rap album that makes his a better wrestler. he has succeded beyond what Bret accomplished money wise in this business and that, by business standards, makes him a better wrestler. More people in the general public know who John Cena is vs. the amount of people who knew Bret Hart was when he was on top. That makes him a better pro wrestler.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 14:06:18 GMT -5
You're missing the point. You see the word "wrestler" and you probably think "workrate"...I don't know. I see their word "wrestler" and I think "A guy or girl who's job is to entertain people to the point that at the end of the day they are willing to part with their hard earned money to see him/her whether it be to win or lose..." ...and if being a Main Stream celeb had nothing to do with wrestling then why has Donald Trump, Dennis Rodman, Karl Malone and Mike Tyson raked in millions over the years in wrestling angles? When a wrestler can cross over to the main stream pub that's huge for wrestling. Hogan proved it, Austin proved it, Rock proved it and now Cena is proving it...business is the best it has been in 5 years and that has a lot to do with John Cena, love him or hate him, the guy is a star. The same could never be said for Bret Hart. That is all I am saying. I don't agree with you on Dennis Rodman and Karl Malone Well they earned 600,000 buys for WCW so you do the math.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 13:42:56 GMT -5
Sorry I made you vomit but Bret Hart was not a mainstream celebrity like Cena is. I loved Hart...he was my fav wrestler for a long time but he was no star. He helped make Austin a star so he was no chump...but he cannot be lumped in with Hogan, Rock, Austin and Cena. Better "worker"? yes. Better "pro wrester" than Cena...not even close. I didn't realize being a mainstream celebrity makes someone a great wrestler. When is Angelina Jolie getting the strap? Just because Daddy Warbucks(Vince) spends cash to put his top star on the movie screen doesn't make that guy a great wrestler. That is NOT what this business is about. You're missing the point. You see the word "wrestler" and you probably think "workrate"...I don't know. I see their word "wrestler" and I think "A guy or girl who's job is to entertain people to the point that at the end of the day they are willing to part with their hard earned money to see him/her whether it be to win or lose..." ...and if being a Main Stream celeb had nothing to do with wrestling then why has Donald Trump, Dennis Rodman, Karl Malone and Mike Tyson raked in millions over the years in wrestling angles? When a wrestler can cross over to the main stream pub that's huge for wrestling. Hogan proved it, Austin proved it, Rock proved it and now Cena is proving it...business is the best it has been in 5 years and that has a lot to do with John Cena, love him or hate him, the guy is a star. The same could never be said for Bret Hart. That is all I am saying.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 13:34:48 GMT -5
Why does that suck? If it is because you are just a bigger Hart fan I get it... but Cena is far > Bret Hart is so many ways it isn't even funny. And I was a huge Hart fan...he was great, but he was no star. Aw'right list them. He makes more money for the WWE than Hart did...his lasting power is far greater...his potential is greater...his attitude is better than Hart's was and I think he is a harder worker. Hogan vs. Hart could have been the biggest match of the 90's but both guys wanted to be pricks about it and who lost? Us. The fans. Cena would never pull something like that. He is great for wrestling...he is great role model for kids and he makes a boat load of money for his company. I can 100% understand people liking Hart more than Cena but to say he does not deserve to break Bret's acomplishements...I do not agree with that. He has earned his stripes and deserves a spot above Bret Hart in the record books. Just my opinion.
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Swarm
Don Corleone
SWARM = RATINGS
Posts: 1,347
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Post by Swarm on May 21, 2007 13:29:44 GMT -5
Why does that suck? If it is becasue you are just a bigger Hart fan I get it... but Cena is far > Bret Hart is so many ways it isn't even funny. And I was a huge Hart fan...he was great, but he was no star. *Vomits* Sorry I made you vomit but Bret Hart was not a mainsteam celebrity like Cena is. I loved Hart...he was my fav wrestler for a long time but he was no star. He helped make Austin a star so he was no chump...but he cannot be lumped in with Hogan, Rock, Austin and Cena. Better "worker"? yes. Better "pro wrester" than Cena...not even close.
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