The good things Russo has done

[Michael Coello]

codylockemitchell said:

So . . . four pages, and the best Pro-Russo argument so far has been the "OMGZ, teh IWC" dead horse.

Gee.

Well, let's see then. Here's a few off the top of my head:

-More focus on the undercard back then(one that is very much needed in both feds right now)

-Belief that the people backstage need as much credit for the shows as the wrestlers themselves do(That's true. The guys in the bakc deserve the same credit & blame the wrestlers get, maybe more)

-Most of the good things in early TNA.

[Mr. Mediocre]

sinister1 said:

codylockemitchell said:

So . . . four pages, and the best Pro-Russo argument so far has been the "OMGZ, teh IWC" dead horse.

Gee.

Well, let's see then. Here's a few off the top of my head:

-More focus on the undercard back then(one that is very much needed in both feds right now)

-Belief that the people backstage need as much credit for the shows as the wrestlers themselves do(That's true. The guys in the bakc deserve the same credit & blame the wrestlers get, maybe more)

-Most of the good things in early TNA.

All good points...and I'll say the guys in the back deserve more than the wrestlers get. Much more.

[Nice Guy Cody]

-More focus on the undercard back then(one that is very much needed in both feds right now)

How exactly? Pinata on Pole matches?

-Belief that the people backstage need as much credit for the shows as the wrestlers themselves do(That's true. The guys in the bakc deserve the same credit & blame the wrestlers get, maybe more)

Again, how? Because he put people like himself and his friend Ed Ferarra on TV and down the audience's throat?

explodinglimo said:

All good points...and I'll say the guys in the back deserve more than the wrestlers get. Much more.

You don't think the people who have to go out and exhaust themselves and beat themselves up deserve more credit than the people who sit around coming up with storylines like blood dripping out of the rafters?

[Michael Coello]

codylockemitchell said:

-More focus on the undercard back then(one that is very much needed in both feds right now)

How exactly? Pinata on Pole matches?




Again, how? Because he put people like himself and his friend Ed Ferarra on TV and down the audience's throat?

explodinglimo said:

All good points...and I'll say the guys in the back deserve more than the wrestlers get. Much more.

You don't think the people who have to go out and exhaust themselves and beat themselves up deserve more credit than the people who sit around coming up with storylines like blood dripping out of the rafters?

-Think of the different people who got people interested in the Attitude Era. Hell, Steve Blackman got over back then.

-I was thinking more credits, maybe something like "Music by: Blablabla" "Sound designs" "Costumes" "Lighting",etc.

-What about the guys who play the music that the wrestlers come out to? Set up the ring the wrestlers wrestle in? Film the matches the wrestlers have? Make sure things go off without a hitch so the focus can be on the action in the ring instead of a flaw? It's not all just creative back there.

[Mr. Mediocre]

codylockemitchell said:

-More focus on the undercard back then(one that is very much needed in both feds right now)

How exactly? Pinata on Pole matches?

Skipping WCW, because I do believe Russo ran it into the ground, when he was head of WWF creative, people tended to give a crap about the entire card. Hell, the way shows were written, you could give a crap about the damn European title.

You don't think the people who have to go out and exhaust themselves and beat themselves up deserve more credit than the people who sit around coming up with storylines like blood dripping out of the rafters?

The wrestlers do deserve a lot of credit for what they do to their bodies and what they put themselves through. That's not what I'm specifically talking about though and perhaps I should be more clear.

When a wrestler fails to get over (i.e. Santino Marella as a face), who gets in trouble? The wrestler...even though the character was the writer/booker's creation, the interview was the writer/booker's creation, and in many cases what happens in the match is the writer/booker's creation. It's a load of shit that WWE was ready to fire Santino Marella because he was saddled with a horseshit gimmick and Gewirtz or someone said "let's have him use a rollup as his signature move."

Really, I'm talking specifically about blame for failures typically belong to the writer...unless the dude in the ring is absolutely godawful.

And hell, look at the people who busted their ass without recognition from the fans and then got a character change and lit it up. Yes, Steve Austin came up with Stone Cold on his own. But the Rock? Yeah, someone came up with that for him. Triple H? Same deal.

Yes, the wrestlers got the persona/character over. But somebody should have gotten a pat on the back for coming up with the character/persona.

And as a postscript: I've always agreed with Russo that the writers and bookers and production crew should have their names mentioned in a credit listing.

[Gillberg: 0-175]

codylockemitchell said:

-More focus on the undercard back then(one that is very much needed in both feds right now)

How exactly? Pinata on Pole matches?




Again, how? Because he put people like himself and his friend Ed Ferarra on TV and down the audience's throat?

Your argument is tainted. Like Russo invited the "on a pole" stip. What about the Turkey on a Pole match?

And you act like Russo is the only booker in history to book him and his friends. Look at Vince for one. He crams himself and his friends (well he did with the stooges) for the majority of WWE programming. Bill Watts and Verne Gagne did that with their children.

You're making it seem like Russo is the only one in history to do this. First and foremost, WCW was a troubled company since it was created. Have you read RD's book? Russo wasn't the only horrible booker for that company...every single damn one of them were horrible. Bischoff just caught a break and had a better mind for business.

Of course, the few months Russo was in office were so much worse than those old videos they filmed with Cheatum or with Hogan and the Dungeon of Doom, right?. Face it, WCW sucked throughout it's tenure. Russo didn't kill it, it was never even alive to begin with.

And for Nice Guy Cody, I could create a topic about any booker, be it Dusty Rhodes, Gagne, Watts, Heyman or McMahon and we could have this same argument. No one booker was a God amongst men, and no one booker has had more good solid ideas than bad ones.

[Nice Guy Cody]

doinksdoodoo said:

Your argument is tainted. Like Russo invited the "on a pole" stip. What about the Turkey on a Pole match?

And you act like Russo is the only booker in history to book him and his friends. Look at Vince for one. He crams himself and his friends (well he did with the stooges) for the majority of WWE programming. Bill Watts and Verne Gagne did that with their children.

You're making it seem like Russo is the only one in history to do this.

Uh, what? Did I say anywhere, "Vince Russo invented the __ pole match"? Did I say that "Vince Russo is the only person to ever book his friends into spots"? No, I didn't. I only brought up those instances as counterpoints. I don't know what you were reading, or in what context.
At no point in time did I attempt to make it seem like he was the only one to do so, or whatever else you're trying to claim here. Your drive to be iconoclast in defending Russo is causing you to pick and choose, here. Tainted argument, indeed.

First and foremost, WCW was a troubled company since it was created. Have you read RD's book? Russo wasn't the only horrible booker for that company...every single damn one of them were horrible. Bischoff just caught a break and had a better mind for business.

At no point did I ever attempt to make any claim like that. You're blatantly putting words in my mouth.
And yes, I've read Death of WC many, many times. I would advise the "Russo is God" camp to do the same.

Of course, the few months Russo was in office were so much worse than those old videos they filmed with Cheatum or with Hogan and the Dungeon of Doom, right?. Face it, WCW sucked throughout it's tenure. Russo didn't kill it, it was never even alive to begin with.

Again, I never said anything that even remotely close to "WCW was amazing before Russo". You're trying too hard to go against the grain that you're creating your own opposition arguments to debunk.

And for Nice Guy Cody, I could create a topic about any booker, be it Dusty Rhodes, Gagne, Watts, Heyman or McMahon and we could have this same argument. No one booker was a God amongst men, and no one booker has had more good solid ideas than bad ones.

What kind of argument is that? I never claimed that Russo was the only person on the planet who made bad booking decisions, and I'd sure as Hell never call McMahon a God amongst Men.

But go ahead. Create a "Gagne/Heyman/Dusty's Bad Booking Ideas", and fill it with all the Dusty Finishes and gorilla costumes you want. Then go create a "Russo's Bad Booking ideas" thread. See which one goes more pages. That should speak volumes.

[Gillberg: 0-175]

codylockemitchell said:

doinksdoodoo said:

Your argument is tainted. Like Russo invited the "on a pole" stip. What about the Turkey on a Pole match?

And you act like Russo is the only booker in history to book him and his friends. Look at Vince for one. He crams himself and his friends (well he did with the stooges) for the majority of WWE programming. Bill Watts and Verne Gagne did that with their children.

You're making it seem like Russo is the only one in history to do this.

Uh, what? Did I say anywhere, "Vince Russo invented the __ pole match"? Did I say that "Vince Russo is the only person to ever book his friends into spots"? No, I didn't. I only brought up those instances as counterpoints. I don't know what you were reading, or in what context.
At no point in time did I attempt to make it seem like he was the only one to do so, or whatever else you're trying to claim here. Your drive to be iconoclast in defending Russo is causing you to pick and choose, here. Tainted argument, indeed.



At no point did I ever attempt to make any claim like that. You're blatantly putting words in my mouth.
And yes, I've read Death of WC many, many times. I would advise the "Russo is God" camp to do the same.




Again, I never said anything that even remotely close to "WCW was amazing before Russo". You're trying too hard to go against the grain that you're creating your own opposition arguments to debunk.

And for Nice Guy Cody, I could create a topic about any booker, be it Dusty Rhodes, Gagne, Watts, Heyman or McMahon and we could have this same argument. No one booker was a God amongst men, and no one booker has had more good solid ideas than bad ones.

What kind of argument is that? I never claimed that Russo was the only person on the planet who made bad booking decisions, and I'd sure as Hell never call McMahon a God amongst Men.

But go ahead. Create a "Gagne/Heyman/Dusty's Bad Booking Ideas", and fill it with all the Dusty Finishes and gorilla costumes you want. Then go create a "Russo's Bad Booking ideas" thread. See which one goes more pages. That should speak volumes.

Only the last statement was directed towards you, the others (which I didn't even realize were posted by you until now) just go to debunk everyones theory that Russo is shit but anyone else is God. I'm not a Russo supporter. I just think that he gets much more flak than he should. Read my sig. This board is full of hypocrites. What makes a wrestling beetle work but something like Viagra on a Pole not? To me, those come from the same train of thought, for it being over the top to try to amuse people who like the humor. It's not my personal taste, but to me they seem to be one in the same. How are you not going to market a wrestling beetle to adults that don't find viagra on a pole, or Buff's mom funny? Those seem to be the people who want over the top humor in their wrestling.

Yet viagra on a pole and Judy Bagwell are horrible ideas yet Chikara and their wrestling beetles are brilliant. I just don't see how someone can come to that conclusion. Maybe the viagra on a pole thing is a bad example, but to me it seems that if it's over the top by Russo it's instantly shit on, but done in the indies it's Godly.

Also, if anything horrible happens in a fed where Russo is in, it's automatically his fault. That's what really gets me riled up and brings me to the other bookers discussions. Why is it he's the only one to be brought up around here, but every other shitty booker is protected and is acted like their shit don't stink?

["Nature Boy" Ric Moranis]

codylockemitchell said:

But go ahead. Create a "Gagne/Heyman/Dusty's Bad Booking Ideas", and fill it with all the Dusty Finishes and gorilla costumes you want. Then go create a "Russo's Bad Booking ideas" thread. See which one goes more pages. That should speak volumes.

No. That should not speak volumes. The only reason there would be more pages on the Russo one is because this is a younger skewing board, and the hot ticket item on Wrestlecrap has always been books containing many of Russo's terrible ideas.

If enough people knew about the booking styles of Gagne, Dusty, Watts, various Memphis bookers, etc., I'm sure there could be a long thread on it. Not enough people know enough about that time period, but everyone's well versed on major mistakes that Russo made in WCW and associate those particular mistakes with "bad booking".

For instance, nobody used more ref bumps, outside interference, OMG SWERVEZ, and screwjobs than Bill Watts...yet alleged "bad booking" techniques like those weren't what killed his territory...where it did in Memphis and the Carolinas. Watts was one that somehow used this formula to draw, not piss people off until they stopped coming like everywhere else. In fact, Watts booked some of the best wrestling television ever. It still holds up, and I'm not saying this as some mid-40s guy from Oklahoma, I'm in my mid-20s. Check that stuff out, it's on YouTube. Search "mid south".

Most people on this board jump on Russo because that's what they know. If this message board were themed around the Carolinas in 1988, you'd see a similar tone towards Dusty.

I can't stand Russo, but the fact that more people on this board know about his mistakes doesn't make him de-facto worst booker ever. More companies have died than WCW.

[Hiroshi Hase]

aaaaaaaaa said:

codylockemitchell said:

But go ahead. Create a "Gagne/Heyman/Dusty's Bad Booking Ideas", and fill it with all the Dusty Finishes and gorilla costumes you want. Then go create a "Russo's Bad Booking ideas" thread. See which one goes more pages. That should speak volumes.

No. That should not speak volumes. The only reason there would be more pages on the Russo one is because this is a younger skewing board, and the hot ticket item on Wrestlecrap has always been books containing many of Russo's terrible ideas.

If enough people knew about the booking styles of Gagne, Dusty, Watts, various Memphis bookers, etc., I'm sure there could be a long thread on it. Not enough people know enough about that time period, but everyone's well versed on major mistakes that Russo made in WCW and associate those particular mistakes with "bad booking".

For instance, nobody used more ref bumps, outside interference, OMG SWERVEZ, and screwjobs than Bill Watts...yet alleged "bad booking" techniques like those weren't what killed his territory...where it did in Memphis and the Carolinas. Watts was one that somehow used this formula to draw, not piss people off until they stopped coming like everywhere else. In fact, Watts booked some of the best wrestling television ever. It still holds up, and I'm not saying this as some mid-40s guy from Oklahoma, I'm in my mid-20s. Check that stuff out, it's on YouTube. Search "mid south".

Most people on this board jump on Russo because that's what they know. If this message board were themed around the Carolinas in 1988, you'd see a similar tone towards Dusty.

I can't stand Russo, but the fact that more people on this board know about his mistakes doesn't make him de-facto worst booker ever. More companies have died than WCW.

Even though I was a huge WCW fan for many years, I didn't like Watt's "Top-rope" rule where you'd get DQed for coming off the top rope.

["Nature Boy" Ric Moranis]

yjc1019 said:

Even though I was a huge WCW fan for many years, I didn't like Watt's "Top-rope" rule where you'd get DQed for coming off the top rope.

By the time he went to WCW, Watts stopped watching wrestling for like five years or something, and kind of lost his mind. I thought that rule was stupid too.

But 1983-86 Watts booking was full of great, compelling TV...even though there were ref bumps, run-ins, screwjobs, people waffling back and forth between heel and babyface, titles changing hands without pinfalls, loaded boots, loaded masks, throwing titles into rivers, etc. It might seem too old school to work, but I could see his style working just fine today.

His Flair-DiBiase-Murdoch angle was money. Watts turned Dick Murdoch heel, and DiBiase (his top heel) into the promotion's number one babyface all in one hour of TV with a storyline using real emotions that almost anybody can relate to (professional/occupational jealousy and envy).

["Nature Boy" Ric Moranis]

I should add that Bill Watts was also a backstage bully, racist, and overall turdball that treated people like scum, but his booking stuff worked because he didn't take the audience for granted and wasn't constantly winking at them with his product like WWE and TNA do constantly.

This is part of the reason why ROH booking works so well (if you look past the great in-ring product). They treat their audience seriously, treats their show like a real athletic competition, which allows you to suspend disbelief and enjoy the ride. That can't happen when you're constantly being reminded that it's cheesy, fake pro wrestling, which is why there hasn't been terribly great booking anywhere in the mainstream since the 1990s...and I wouldn't think that Russo or Vince McMahon have ever been interested in that style of a product.

[Will Has 'Til Five, Ref]

doinksdoodoo said:

maxx420 said:

I think so. It was part of the whole New Blood/ Millionaire's Club angle which was a Russo brainchild (hell, he even tried to re-hash that when he started in TNA).
Too bad that Vampiro was buried by that angle in the end.
Actually, the whole New Blood/ Millionaire's Club was a good idea in theory, in practice it just didn't work. It was too "insider"; you can't explain something like this to the casual audience.
And why were the New Blood the heels in this situation? Baffling.

The problem was that Russo thought everyone was smarks. Even so, it gets embarrassing hearing "rib" and "shoot" every 10 seconds on a wrestling broadcast. We all know it's fake, but the insider jargon should be just that -- insider jargon.

They mentioned "ribs" so often it was starting to sound like subliminal advertising for McDonald's McRib sandwich.