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Post by chilidog on Oct 23, 2007 16:10:14 GMT -5
Just to let you know, I'm enjoying this discussion. This is good stuff.
Now as your argument, if you really think that people tuned out of a match that had gone nearly an hour just because it had John Cena or perhaps it didn't meet your standards of what good wrestling is, then you're sadly mistaken. It doesn't matter who it is, it could have been an advertised return match of the Rock hyped up for several months, ANY match on WWE TV that goes for 30+ minutes is going to lose viewers plain and simple.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Oct 23, 2007 16:10:55 GMT -5
They wouldn't due to lack of star power. Read the Radio Clash postings, he's doing a far better job of making my point for me. i'm not sure if you are aware of this, but John Cena was booed heavily in a lot of place, so i'm will to bet a good portion of the WWE doesn't care about Cena's "star power". are you saying that a 55 minute Triple H vs. Shawn Michaels match won't hold peoples attention because Cena's match didn't I understand that. It's just mainstream fans arestill not used to having patience. Besides, by logic, they should want to stick around to watch Cena lose.
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comahan
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Post by comahan on Oct 23, 2007 16:13:20 GMT -5
The other day, a few friends of mine asked me to show them the Punk/Joe matches that I always rave about. (Theyre big wwe guys, watch tna sometimes, and never watch roh (though, thru me, they know what it is). They are big Punk fans from watching ECW, and know Joe from TNA.
They thought I/II were okay, but they were too effing long. They basically said he couldnt stand the first 30 minutes of the matches cause "nothing happened, it was boring as hell", and thats how most of my WWE-Fan friends feel. They would not have finished the match had I not told them to keep going cause it gets better.
Pure wrestling just doesnt appeal to a lot of normal fans. A great 15-20 minute match? Sure. An hour? No.
Note: They also thought the Joe/Styles/Daniels match at Unbreakable was way too long, and it wasnt even 30 minutes.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Oct 23, 2007 16:13:25 GMT -5
Firstly, the WWE has made next to no attempt to condition their audience to long wrestling matches. ROH has. And until the WWE does attempt to start the conditioning process, a 55 minute match will not hold the attention of the WWE audience regardless of who is in the match.
Secondly, John Cena is heavily booed and heavily cheered- the key word here being "heavily". The worse thing for any wrestler to do is draw no reaction from the crowd, and much of the crowd has a reaction to Cena- usually an extreme one. Either way it translates to a good business model. And since things that work for a live audience will not always work for a television audience, the only logical blame goes to the match length and the WWE for not grooming THEIR- not the world, THEIR audience- for long matches, not the performers.
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Johnny
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Post by Johnny on Oct 23, 2007 16:16:39 GMT -5
ROH made me entertained during a 75 (thats SEVENTY FIVE) minute long Austin Aries vs Bryan Danielson match. Cena bores me to tears after about 6 (thats SIX) minutes.
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Post by chilidog on Oct 23, 2007 16:17:15 GMT -5
ROH made me entertained during a 75 (thats SEVENTY FIVE) minute long Austin Aries vs Bryan Danielson match. Cena bores me to tears after about 6 (thats SIX) minutes. You are not the masses.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Oct 23, 2007 16:19:24 GMT -5
Firstly, the WWE has made next to no attempt to condition their audience to long wrestling matches. ROH has. And until the WWE does attempt to start the conditioning process, a 55 minute match will not hold the attention of the WWE audience regardless of who is in the match. Secondly, John Cena is heavily booed and heavily cheered- the key word here being "heavily". The worse thing for any wrestler to do is draw no reaction from the crowd, and much of the crowd has a reaction to Cena- usually an extreme one. Either way it translates to a good business model. And since things that work for a live audience will not always work for a television audience, the only logical blame goes to the match length and the WWE for not grooming THEIR- not the world, THEIR audience- for long matches, not the performers. WWE has been putting on the longest matches they have in years. It's progress.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Oct 23, 2007 16:20:32 GMT -5
Also, bear in mind that I am not taking the side of a particular promotion in this thread, just pointing out why television ratings usually decline during long matches.
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Johnny
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Post by Johnny on Oct 23, 2007 16:20:56 GMT -5
ROH made me entertained during a 75 (thats SEVENTY FIVE) minute long Austin Aries vs Bryan Danielson match. Cena bores me to tears after about 6 (thats SIX) minutes. You are not the masses. I'm Johnny, so the statement is correct, I am not Masses.
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Post by Nice Guy Cody on Oct 23, 2007 22:47:20 GMT -5
If there's one thing America's short but storied history has taught us, it's that the majority don't know jack crap. Who cares what they think? As long as I'm entertained and feel like I'm getting my money's worth, which is consistently true, I'm happy (and spare me that "ROH fans are teh n00bz cuz they all universally blow their life savings on DVDs" bullcrap).
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Joekishi
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Post by Joekishi on Oct 23, 2007 22:56:27 GMT -5
I'm betting most ROHbots get their jollies from bit-torrent.
What's entertaining to one wrestling fan is boring and overrated to others.
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Post by robferatu on Oct 23, 2007 23:34:33 GMT -5
I agree with him to an extent, the extent of some RoH fans taken things too seriously, but that can be argued with fans of anything.
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Slim Loves Lily
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Post by Slim Loves Lily on Oct 24, 2007 0:58:06 GMT -5
Oh good f***ing god.
I wish it was Batista calling ROH fans losers.
Imagine THAT hilarity.
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Post by DSR on Oct 24, 2007 1:02:59 GMT -5
I wish it was Chris Hero calling ROH fans losers.
What?
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Post by "Nature Boy" Ric Moranis on Oct 24, 2007 3:36:01 GMT -5
I agree with him to an extent, the extent of some RoH fans taken things too seriously, but that can be argued with fans of anything. I have no reason to stick up for ROH fans, but Jericho DID NOT say anything bad about ROH fans in his interview. They were talking about the low turnout at the Cow Palace, and Jericho was recalling an old AWA show from Winnipeg when he went to cover it for the local paper (because he got a job as a local wrestling reporter...because nobody else wanted to do it), and only 300 people showed up in this big arena to see AWA. Jericho was joking that he felt like a loser since everybody else in the city of Winnipeg must've had cooler stuff going on than being at the wrestling show he was at. He was speaking of Winnipeg, mind you, and it sounded like he was making fun of his own wrestling nerdom experiences in the past (and making fun of Meltzer for being at that poorly organized convention). He also said that Gabe sent him a bunch of ROH DVDs, he loves it, and he ordered their two TV PPVs so far and enjoyed them. Never said anything about their fans. The only things he said about ROH were putting over the product, along with some of the workers (he put over Larry Sweeney's ability as a talker tremendously...which I thought was pretty damn cool of him). The only negative I heard about ROH wasn't the fans, but he thought a small portion of their matches were "trainwrecks" from a psychology standpoint, but overall, he dug it. I have no idea where the original report in the thread came from, unless I listened to a different interview, or missed something huge. Since I just listened to it, and here are other things Y2J "put over", or spoke well of in passing...-John Cena -Vince McMahon -Hulk Hogan -WWE -TNA -ROH -TNA Bound For Glory '07 -Wrestling PPVs in general (says he still orders all of them that anyone puts out) -post-WCW Bischoff (said he was a nice guy in WWE) -Bryan Danielson -Nigel McGuinness -Samoa Joe -AJ Styles - AJ Styles' "new character" (bolded since everyone on here hates it so much) - Chris Sabin-Alex Shelley (bolded for awesomeness) -Team 3D's ability to have a feud w/MCMG without burying those guys (he's confident Ray and D-Von would never intentionally bury MCMG, that's not how they do business) -Amazing Kong (saw her in TNA, said was the coolest thing to happen to women's wrestling "since Bull Nakano") -Vince Russo, for being the main guy who fought for him getting into WWE in 1999. -Axl Rose -David Lee Roth's showmanship (said it was a major inspiration) -Larry Sweeney Things Jericho "buried"...-WCW -Goldberg's attitude towards him in WCW. -Ralphus's "attitude" -The shooting-star press (since he broke his arm) -Bischoff's attitude towards the end of his WCW run. -TNA's creative direction (he was asked about Russo, and said it's not necessarily Russo, there are some "other guys" over there...maybe he just gets the same "newz" we all do) -TNA's TV and PPV camera director, and the way they edit their TV shows -Vince Russo's early Y2J angles in WWE (wrestling Shamrock in a cage, Mr. Hughes as a bodyguard, manager Howard Finkel, etc.). -Young wrestlers who don't actively develop their on-air personalities, but sit around and wait for writers to come up with something for them (not a burial, but advice, since that's what he was forced to do in WCW.) So yeah, I made too big of a list of things he put over and/or buried, but most of those bullet points were more "NEWZworthy" on here then Jericho bashing fans that he didn't bash. Since it seems like 99% of us are big Jericho fans (no matter our preference in modern wrestling), I suggest finding a link to the interview if you haven't heard it. It's good stuff, if you can sit through the 10-12 minutes that Meltzer and Alvarez sweat recent MMA news on a pro wrestling radio show.
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Post by rrm15 on Oct 24, 2007 13:40:28 GMT -5
If Batista had said this, we'd have a mobilized army by now.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Oct 24, 2007 13:50:15 GMT -5
They were talking about the low turnout at the Cow Palace, and Jericho was recalling an old AWA show from Winnipeg when he went to cover it for the local paper (because he got a job as a local wrestling reporter...because nobody else wanted to do it), and only 300 people showed up in this big arena to see AWA. Jericho was joking that he felt like a loser since everybody else in the city of Winnipeg must've had cooler stuff going on than being at the wrestling show he was at. He was speaking of Winnipeg, mind you, and it sounded like he was making fun of his own wrestling nerdom experiences in the past (and making fun of Meltzer for being at that poorly organized convention). He also said that Gabe sent him a bunch of ROH DVDs, he loves it, and he ordered their two TV PPVs so far and enjoyed them. Never said anything about their fans. The only things he said about ROH were putting over the product, along with some of the workers (he put over Larry Sweeney's ability as a talker tremendously...which I thought was pretty damn cool of him). The only negative I heard about ROH wasn't the fans, but he thought a small portion of their matches were "trainwrecks" from a psychology standpoint, but overall, he dug it. I have no idea where the original report in the thread came from, unless I listened to a different interview, or missed something huge. Since I just listened to it, and here are other things Y2J "put over", or spoke well of in passing...-John Cena -Vince McMahon -Hulk Hogan -WWE -TNA -ROH -TNA Bound For Glory '07 -Wrestling PPVs in general (says he still orders all of them that anyone puts out) -post-WCW Bischoff (said he was a nice guy in WWE) -Bryan Danielson -Nigel McGuinness -Samoa Joe -AJ Styles - AJ Styles' "new character" (bolded since everyone on here hates it so much) - Chris Sabin-Alex Shelley (bolded for awesomeness) -Team 3D's ability to have a feud w/MCMG without burying those guys (he's confident Ray and D-Von would never intentionally bury MCMG, that's not how they do business) -Amazing Kong (saw her in TNA, said was the coolest thing to happen to women's wrestling "since Bull Nakano") -Vince Russo, for being the main guy who fought for him getting into WWE in 1999. -Axl Rose -David Lee Roth's showmanship (said it was a major inspiration) -Larry Sweeney With the exception of AJ Styles' new character, he's in the right about all of them.
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Hiroshi Hase
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Oct 24, 2007 14:02:43 GMT -5
If Batista had said this, we'd have a mobilized army by now. If this was Batista saying it, this would've been a sticky thread because of how many people would be saying he's the worst person ever.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Oct 24, 2007 14:08:26 GMT -5
If Batista had said this, we'd have a mobilized army by now. If this was Batista saying it, this would've been a sticky thread because of how many people would be saying he's the worst person ever. Realistically, had Batista insulted ROH fans I don't think the thread would be stickied, but you would definitely see a lot of Anti-Batista signatures.
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Hiroshi Hase
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Oct 24, 2007 14:09:35 GMT -5
If this was Batista saying it, this would've been a sticky thread because of how many people would be saying he's the worst person ever. Realistically, had Batista insulted ROH fans I don't think the thread would be stickied, but you would definitely see a lot of Anti-Batista signatures. Yeah, I figured that, but the uproar would probably make this the top thread on the (W)rest section.
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