Which matches should Hogan have lost?

[Joekishi]

yjc1019 said:

explodinglimo said:

How did he pass the torch to Yokozuna? Passing the torch to Yokozuna would imply that Yokozuna was meant to be the top superstar in the WWF for years...which never happened and was definitely not the intention of McMahon or anyone else. Then, when you factor in that Yoko couldn't even beat him clean, your argument is ridiculous.

"Passing the torch" would imply a clean victory to a new face for the company. Hulk DID pass the torch to Warrior, but when that didn't work out, he avoided doing it for Bret or anyone else.

And personally, I think Bret beating Hogan would have done wonders for the WWF during the new generation years.

I'd say he did as heels aren't supposed to beat faces clean. Also, Yoko beat him down badly in the post-match sending Hogan out of the WWE battered and broken down, so I'd say that's doing quite a favor in putting over Yoko as a monster heel,IMO.

This is what I'm saying WWE was in a downtime, and hogan opted to put the belt on Yoko because since his Debut Yoko was pushed hard as vince's monster. Putting the belt on Bret at that time wouldn't have been as big a deal as it was in their rematch.

Bret needed to be rebuilt into a threat after wrestlemania IX.

Winning KOTR and his fued with Lawler kept him relevant. While Yoko was beating guys like Tatanka, Taker, and Lex Luger.

While guys like Luger and Taker tried to out power/outbrawl Yoko they still could not get the job done.

Bret beat him while guys like Quake, Hogan, Luger, Undertaker, and Tatanka couldn't even get him to the mat.

This is the same way in which Hogan had put over Brock Lesnar, an unbeatable monster. As Brock was beating up midcarders and even though he won KOTR he still was seen as just a big dude. IT wasn't until he DESTROYED Hogan that Brock was taken seriously.

This is exactly what happened with Yoko. WWE was aching without a strong Heel, and hogan basically solidified yoko as THE HEEL.

Thus he passed the torch. Bret never needed the win over Hogan.

in WCW during the heyday of the nWo there could not be any other world champion besides Hogan.

I don't know if Hogan ever faced DDP, during DDP's initial face run post-Flock. I really think if it was DDP who was the guy to finally get the belt from the nWo that would have been major.

[Mr. Mediocre]

basicboogeynomix said:

yjc1019 said:

I'd say he did as heels aren't supposed to beat faces clean. Also, Yoko beat him down badly in the post-match sending Hogan out of the WWE battered and broken down, so I'd say that's doing quite a favor in putting over Yoko as a monster heel,IMO.

This is what I'm saying WWE was in a downtime, and hogan opted to put the belt on Yoko because since his Debut Yoko was pushed hard as vince's monster. Putting the belt on Bret at that time wouldn't have been as big a deal as it was in their rematch.

Bret needed to be rebuilt into a threat after wrestlemania IX.

Winning KOTR and his fued with Lawler kept him relevant. While Yoko was beating guys like Tatanka, Taker, and Lex Luger.

While guys like Luger and Taker tried to out power/outbrawl Yoko they still could not get the job done.

Bret beat him while guys like Quake, Hogan, Luger, Undertaker, and Tatanka couldn't even get him to the mat.

This is the same way in which Hogan had put over Brock Lesnar, an unbeatable monster. As Brock was beating up midcarders and even though he won KOTR he still was seen as just a big dude. IT wasn't until he DESTROYED Hogan that Brock was taken seriously.

This is exactly what happened with Yoko. WWE was aching without a strong Heel, and hogan basically solidified yoko as THE HEEL.

Thus he passed the torch. Bret never needed the win over Hogan.

Hmm...you make a very, very good argument and I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter. I definitely concede this one.

Now that I'm really thinking about it, I honestly don't know if I'd have him lose any of the major matches he was in in the WWF. As for WCW, that's a much different story.

[BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps]

basicboogeynomix said:

Thus he passed the torch. Bret never needed the win over Hogan.

I won't dispute that Bret had a great career without the win. I just think that it couldn't have hurt either guy.

[yourgoingdown]

He should have defaintely lost clean to Sting at Starrcade '97. I agree with the Wrestlemania 9 thing to. Bret should have faced Hogan then and Hogan should have jobbed. And especially in his nWo heydays he didnt need to be champion the WHOLE time in its prime. I think in between August '96 to December '97 he lost it one time to Luger and it was just for 6 days.

[Hiroshi Hase]

basicboogeynomix said:

yjc1019 said:

I'd say he did as heels aren't supposed to beat faces clean. Also, Yoko beat him down badly in the post-match sending Hogan out of the WWE battered and broken down, so I'd say that's doing quite a favor in putting over Yoko as a monster heel,IMO.

This is what I'm saying WWE was in a downtime, and hogan opted to put the belt on Yoko because since his Debut Yoko was pushed hard as vince's monster. Putting the belt on Bret at that time wouldn't have been as big a deal as it was in their rematch.

Bret needed to be rebuilt into a threat after wrestlemania IX.

Winning KOTR and his fued with Lawler kept him relevant. While Yoko was beating guys like Tatanka, Taker, and Lex Luger.

While guys like Luger and Taker tried to out power/outbrawl Yoko they still could not get the job done.

Bret beat him while guys like Quake, Hogan, Luger, Undertaker, and Tatanka couldn't even get him to the mat.

This is the same way in which Hogan had put over Brock Lesnar, an unbeatable monster. As Brock was beating up midcarders and even though he won KOTR he still was seen as just a big dude. IT wasn't until he DESTROYED Hogan that Brock was taken seriously.

This is exactly what happened with Yoko. WWE was aching without a strong Heel, and hogan basically solidified yoko as THE HEEL.

Thus he passed the torch. Bret never needed the win over Hogan.

in WCW during the heyday of the nWo there could not be any other world champion besides Hogan.

I don't know if Hogan ever faced DDP, during DDP's initial face run post-Flock. I really think if it was DDP who was the guy to finally get the belt from the nWo that would have been major.

Good points there and Hogan did face DDP on Nitro a few months after DDP turned face in 97.

[AriadosMan]

If the New Blood storyline was really about building up WCWs homegrown talent, Kidman should have ended up looking much better in the feud than he did.

[Hiroshi Hase]

realfakerazor said:

If the New Blood storyline was really about building up WCWs homegrown talent, Kidman should have ended up looking much better in the feud than he did.

If he was the face in the feud, then yes, but as he was the chickens*** heel, he had to use underhanded tactics to get to Hogan.

[BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps]

yjc1019 said:

realfakerazor said:

If the New Blood storyline was really about building up WCWs homegrown talent, Kidman should have ended up looking much better in the feud than he did.

If he was the face in the feud, then yes, but as he was the chickens*** heel, he had to use underhanded tactics to get to Hogan.

One thing that puzzles me to this day: Why were the New Blood heels in the first place?

[AriadosMan]

radioclash5150 said:

One thing that puzzles me to this day: Why were the New Blood heels in the first place?

I was always puzzled by this. I assumed it was because the top payed guys like Hogan demanded to keep their spots and "look good" in matches. Frankly NWO Hogan was easier to stomch than FUNB Face Hogan.

[thestinger]

radioclash5150 said:

One thing that puzzles me to this day: Why were the New Blood heels in the first place?

Because of their tactics. Beating someone up 12 on 1 isn't very honorable.

Also, let's be realistic people. Sure Hogan should have probably jobbed to Bret to build Bret up in WCW, but he couldn't realistically lose to toothpicks like Billy Kidman and Shawn Michaels.

It would have looked ridiculous. I personally thought it looked ridiculous when Spike Dudley used to beat up Mike Awesome in ECW, Kidman beating up Hogan (without nailing him from behind with a weapon first) would have looked just as silly.

Does that mean that I would rather watch a Hogan match than a Kidman match? Of course not. But Hogan cleanly putting over Kidman would likely have been a Wrestlecrap entry it would look so phony.

Same deal with Michaels with the only difference being that I would rather watch a Hogan match than a Michaels match.

[Joekishi]

realfakerazor said:

If the New Blood storyline was really about building up WCWs homegrown talent, Kidman should have ended up looking much better in the feud than he did.

If all that buildup lead to a Booker Title run, why not have Booker fued with Hogan instead of kidman.

that's the part that really irks me.

[Mr. Mediocre]

thestinger said:

radioclash5150 said:

One thing that puzzles me to this day: Why were the New Blood heels in the first place?

Because of their tactics. Beating someone up 12 on 1 isn't very honorable.

While their tactics did indeed make them heels, I believe the question was meant out of kayfabe - why did Russo and Bischoff decide to make the New Blood heels when they should have been the faces?

basicboogeynomix said:

realfakerazor said:

If the New Blood storyline was really about building up WCWs homegrown talent, Kidman should have ended up looking much better in the feud than he did.

If all that buildup lead to a Booker Title run, why not have Booker fued with Hogan instead of kidman.

that's the part that really irks me.

Agreed...Hogan should have feuded with Booker, who was certainly big enough to make it realistic.

I realize that Hogan was feuded with Kidman because Hogan legitimately disliked Kidman, but it would have been so much better to have him feud with the guy who was going to be the main eventer.

[thestinger]

explodinglimo said:

I believe the question was meant out of kayfabe - why did Russo and Bischoff decide to make the New Blood heels when they should have been the faces?

Here's my opinion: Sid and Luger and Nash could probably still get booed, but there were some in the Millionaire's Club that WCW fans simply did not want to boo.

Sting and Ric Flair had turned heel unsuccessfully earlier that year. WCW fans loved them, and wanted to cheer them.

Hogan was over HUGE as a babyface after a three year run as the most evil heel in wrestling history -- turning him heel again at this point would seem silly.

DDP's heel turn, also wasn't anywhere near as successful as his run as a babyface. Nobody was going to boo 70 year old Terry Funk.

On the other hand, making Kidman, Shane Douglas, Scott Steiner and Mike Awesome heels was more doable.

[Welfare Willis]

thestinger said:

radioclash5150 said:

One thing that puzzles me to this day: Why were the New Blood heels in the first place?

Also, let's be realistic people. Sure Hogan should have probably jobbed to Bret to build Bret up in WCW, but he couldn't realistically lose to toothpicks like Billy Kidman and Shawn Michaels.

It would have looked ridiculous. I personally thought it looked ridiculous when Spike Dudley used to beat up Mike Awesome in ECW, Kidman beating up Hogan (without nailing him from behind with a weapon first) would have looked just as silly.

Does that mean that I would rather watch a Hogan match than a Kidman match? Of course not. But Hogan cleanly putting over Kidman would likely have been a Wrestlecrap entry it would look so phony.

Same deal with Michaels with the only difference being that I would rather watch a Hogan match than a Michaels match.

Okay maybe the Kidman point is valid since I don't think WCW really build Billy up as being able to take on Hogan, but to lose to Shawn Michaels isn't realistic?

I totally disagree with that statement.

["Handsome" Whitey Fats]

thestinger said:

radioclash5150 said:

One thing that puzzles me to this day: Why were the New Blood heels in the first place?

Because of their tactics. Beating someone up 12 on 1 isn't very honorable.

Also, let's be realistic people. Sure Hogan should have probably jobbed to Bret to build Bret up in WCW, but he couldn't realistically lose to toothpicks like Billy Kidman and Shawn Michaels.

It would have looked ridiculous. I personally thought it looked ridiculous when Spike Dudley used to beat up Mike Awesome in ECW, Kidman beating up Hogan (without nailing him from behind with a weapon first) would have looked just as silly.

Does that mean that I would rather watch a Hogan match than a Kidman match? Of course not. But Hogan cleanly putting over Kidman would likely have been a Wrestlecrap entry it would look so phony.

Same deal with Michaels with the only difference being that I would rather watch a Hogan match than a Michaels match.[/quote]

*shakes head sadly* cause watching the exact same match over and over is so much better than seeing someone with some actual wrestling ability

[Hiroshi Hase]

whiteyfats said:

thestinger said:

radioclash5150 said:

One thing that puzzles me to this day: Why were the New Blood heels in the first place?

Because of their tactics. Beating someone up 12 on 1 isn't very honorable.

Also, let's be realistic people. Sure Hogan should have probably jobbed to Bret to build Bret up in WCW, but he couldn't realistically lose to toothpicks like Billy Kidman and Shawn Michaels.

It would have looked ridiculous. I personally thought it looked ridiculous when Spike Dudley used to beat up Mike Awesome in ECW, Kidman beating up Hogan (without nailing him from behind with a weapon first) would have looked just as silly.

Does that mean that I would rather watch a Hogan match than a Kidman match? Of course not. But Hogan cleanly putting over Kidman would likely have been a Wrestlecrap entry it would look so phony.

Same deal with Michaels with the only difference being that I would rather watch a Hogan match than a Michaels match.[/quote]

*shakes head sadly* cause watching the exact same match over and over is so much better than seeing someone with some actual wrestling ability

Actual wrestling ability doesn't draw big crowds, the fans could care less about "workrate" and stuff that most smarks fawn over. They just want to be entertained, whether it's Austin, The Rock, Hogan, DX.

[Mr. Mediocre]

thestinger said:

explodinglimo said:

I believe the question was meant out of kayfabe - why did Russo and Bischoff decide to make the New Blood heels when they should have been the faces?

Here's my opinion: Sid and Luger and Nash could probably still get booed, but there were some in the Millionaire's Club that WCW fans simply did not want to boo.

Sting and Ric Flair had turned heel unsuccessfully earlier that year. WCW fans loved them, and wanted to cheer them.

Hogan was over HUGE as a babyface after a three year run as the most evil heel in wrestling history -- turning him heel again at this point would seem silly.

DDP's heel turn, also wasn't anywhere near as successful as his run as a babyface. Nobody was going to boo 70 year old Terry Funk.

On the other hand, making Kidman, Shane Douglas, Scott Steiner and Mike Awesome heels was more doable.

That's very true, I suppose. But looking at it that way, then they probably shouldn't have done it. It makes more sense for the plucky young faces to beat the evil heels holding them down.

[Bub (BLM)]

hobo said:

catfishjake said:

Starrcade '97 to Sting. CLEAN.

Agreed. I'll go even further and say that PPV should've been the end of the nWo. The build-up to Starrcade 97 was genius, and it seemed like the perfect payoff to the nWo storyline, and the nWo (in my opinion at least) was already starting to get old by that point. At most, maybe they could have dedicated the next Nitro or two to the aftermath of the nWo with the various nWo members going their own way (was Nitro 3 hours at this point? It's been so long that I can't remember).

Honorable mention would be Vader.

I agree with this post.

[hobo]

thestinger said:

Sting and Ric Flair had turned heel unsuccessfully earlier that year. WCW fans loved them, and wanted to cheer them.

Hogan was over HUGE as a babyface after a three year run as the most evil heel in wrestling history -- turning him heel again at this point would seem silly.

Makes sense. I still think the New Blood should have been faces, and just have Sting, Flair, & Hogan defect to their side and act as mentors.

Actually I've wondered why Hogan has never been brought into WWE as a manager, although I haven't watched WWE since about 2003 so maybe they have. He's still popular and has the mic skills. Then again, I guess you'd always have the possibility that he would end up overshadowing the poor guy he's managing.

[thestinger]

whiteyfats said:

*shakes head sadly* cause watching the exact same match over and over is so much better than seeing someone with some actual wrestling ability

SOME actual wrestling ability is about it. I would prefer to watch Hogan, because at least there's the nostalgia factor to appeal to my inner eight year old. There's nothing that appeals to me about the other guy. You need more than 'some' ability for me to want to watch you perform.

Anyway I stand by my position that Hogan can't lose to someone he outweighs by 120 pounds.