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Post by millionurkle on Jul 20, 2008 11:52:14 GMT -5
I was thinking last night after watching the animated series had Two-Face disappeared after killing Maroni, the film wouldn't have been as long and the natural conclusion of the Joker's arrest would have been a satisfactory ending. Batman taking the fall for Dent doesn't work for me, and in contradicts the whole "Gotham needs a symbol" message when he WAS that symbol and now he's tainted, and the guy who could have been that symbol is scarred and possibly dead. Two-Face was the natural third villain and now Nolan has written himself into a whole if a third one ever comes about, because if they pull the "OMG he was dead but now he's back!" routine, that would be a flagrant violation of the universe he created (Commissioner Gordon notwithstanding). Would anyone take the Riddler, after the mayhem and chaos the Joker caused, seriously as the third villain? He can't measure up in terms of violence, and there's no way he can have an emotional or psychological impact. I lean towards a (good) representation of Mr. Freeze. If you just take the Heart of Ice episode and expand it into two hours (and not two and a half), you would have a great canvas to act out what would likely be Nolan's last Batman film. I disagree about the riddler. I might it would probably be a rip-off but he could be a character similar to Jigsaw, minus all the gore. Now that would make a good Batman villian.
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Post by HoganBai on Jul 20, 2008 11:52:31 GMT -5
We have a new Biggest Opening Weekend of All-Time record.
The first estimates have it definately grossing $155 million, at least, beating Spiderman 3's $151 million
God damn, I bet Katie Holmes feels like a real ass today
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Jul 20, 2008 11:58:49 GMT -5
Awesooooooooome. Amazing movie. Loved it. Wanna see it again. Heath Ledger destroys Jack Nicholson. He just totally immersed himself in the role. My only iddy biddy complaint is that there was no Harley Quinn cameo. Just..a liiiittle cameo would have sufficed. A passing mention. Anything. THROW ME A FRICKIN BONE HERE. But yes. Loved. No idea what villain they would use next. A scene where Joker gets commited to Arkham and meets his knew doctor, Harleen Quinzel, would have been great. Sorry dude, but get the smurf over yourself. I mean, fair enough, nobody's begrudging you your opinion on the movie, but you're fighting up hill if you're trying to change anybody's mind, and if you're just voicing that opinion, you're pretty much alone in it here. So no offense dude, but seriously, just get over it. Heh, no, he's not the only one. officialfan.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=offtopic&action=display&thread=122020&page=19#3512166I was thinking last night after watching the animated series had Two-Face disappeared after killing Maroni, the film wouldn't have been as long and the natural conclusion of the Joker's arrest would have been a satisfactory ending. Batman taking the fall for Dent doesn't work for me, and in contradicts the whole "Gotham needs a symbol" message when he WAS that symbol and now he's tainted, and the guy who could have been that symbol is scarred and possibly dead. Two-Face was the natural third villain and now Nolan has written himself into a whole if a third one ever comes about, because if they pull the "OMG he was dead but now he's back!" routine, that would be a flagrant violation of the universe he created (Commissioner Gordon notwithstanding). Would anyone take the Riddler, after the mayhem and chaos the Joker caused, seriously as the third villain? He can't measure up in terms of violence, and there's no way he can have an emotional or psychological impact. I lean towards a (good) representation of Mr. Freeze. If you just take the Heart of Ice episode and expand it into two hours (and not two and a half), you would have a great canvas to act out what would likely be Nolan's last Batman film. They covered that. Gordon himself said Batman is the hero Gotham deserves but not the one it needs at this time. He was already tainted in the public eye. Half the people and the police force wanted to bring him in. Harvey Dent had a whole press confrence about it! Beating up the whole SWAT team didn't help with that either. Just because Harvey died doesn't mean he won't still inspire people. He would be a martyr. Another aspect that they played up the whole movie is that Batman NEEDS the rep that he'll kill people, or else the criminals won't fear him. Now, instead of just going "I'm not going to talk. You'll beat me up but my boss will kill me." they'll have to think twice. I'm not trying to be a jerk when I say this... but did you even pay attention to the movie?
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sryans
Don Corleone
BROOKLYN, BROOKLYN
Posts: 2,001
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Post by sryans on Jul 20, 2008 12:13:32 GMT -5
We have a new Biggest Opening Weekend of All-Time record. The first estimates have it definately grossing $155 million, at least, beating Spiderman 3's $151 million God damn, I bet Katie Holmes feels like a real ass today That would be as of today as in $155 million on Friday and Saturday. I could very easily be wrong
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Post by CrazySting on Jul 20, 2008 12:14:21 GMT -5
Did anyone catch the look on Joker's face when he realized the ferry people weren't going to blow each other up?
That was actually one of the most touching parts of the movie for me. He seemed shocked and intrigued at the same time, it was a great moment and told you more about the character than anything else in the film.
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Jul 20, 2008 12:18:59 GMT -5
We have a new Biggest Opening Weekend of All-Time record. The first estimates have it definately grossing $155 million, at least, beating Spiderman 3's $151 million God damn, I bet Katie Holmes feels like a real ass today That would be as of today as in $155 million on Friday and Saturday. I could very easily be wrong That is the weekend estimate for the full weekend, not just two days. They usually come in on Sundays and the actuals come out Monday afternoon/evening.
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sryans
Don Corleone
BROOKLYN, BROOKLYN
Posts: 2,001
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Post by sryans on Jul 20, 2008 12:21:05 GMT -5
That would be as of today as in $155 million on Friday and Saturday. I could very easily be wrong That is the weekend estimate for the full weekend, not just two days. They usually come in on Sundays and the actuals come out Monday afternoon/evening. Okay, I told you I was wrong
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Post by CrazySting on Jul 20, 2008 12:24:37 GMT -5
Hopefully, Bale will be huge now. He's a lot more interesting than most of the A list stars in Hollywood. I'd like to see Gyllenhaal get more oppertunities too, she was stuck in indie movie hell for a while.
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Post by MiLo Duck on Jul 20, 2008 12:28:27 GMT -5
Did anyone catch the look on Joker's face when he realized the ferry people weren't going to blow each other up? That was actually one of the most touching parts of the movie for me. He seemed shocked and intrigued at the same time, it was a great moment and told you more about the character than anything else in the film. See, I got dissappointed and annoyed. Although I could be wrong. Well there is only one way for me to know for sure! Now you've forced me to go see this awesome movie again. *snaps fingers* Darn!
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Post by Shy Guy on Jul 20, 2008 12:33:07 GMT -5
We have a new Biggest Opening Weekend of All-Time record. The first estimates have it definately grossing $155 million, at least, beating Spiderman 3's $151 million God damn, I bet Katie Holmes feels like a real ass today That would be as of today as in $155 million on Friday and Saturday. I could very easily be wrong perez says this... The Dark Knight is the new box office king. Exceeding initial expectations, the film went on to shatter records left and right this weekend. The most notable: the new Batman film is not the biggest debut ever in U.S. box office history, especially impressive for an opening on a non-holiday weekend. The Dark Knight took in $155.34 million Fri-Sun. That bests Spider-Man 3's 151.1 million in 2007
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Post by CrazySting on Jul 20, 2008 12:36:10 GMT -5
Did anyone catch the look on Joker's face when he realized the ferry people weren't going to blow each other up? That was actually one of the most touching parts of the movie for me. He seemed shocked and intrigued at the same time, it was a great moment and told you more about the character than anything else in the film. See, I got dissappointed and annoyed. Although I could be wrong. I don't know. You could definetly tell he was hurt. He'd justified all the things he'd done by claiming he was just getting people to admit their true nature and savagery, but it turned out he was wrong and was the crazy one after all.
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Post by MiLo Duck on Jul 20, 2008 12:46:55 GMT -5
See, I got dissappointed and annoyed. Although I could be wrong. I don't know. You could definetly tell he was hurt. He'd justified all the things he'd done by claiming he was just getting people to admit their true nature and savagery, but it turned out he was wrong and was the crazy one after all. Well, I think that his annoyance was more a part of his psychotic dellusions allowing him to deny that people may not be just like him deep down. Which is were the rage and outbursts come in.
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Jul 20, 2008 12:49:39 GMT -5
That is the weekend estimate for the full weekend, not just two days. They usually come in on Sundays and the actuals come out Monday afternoon/evening. Okay, I told you I was wrong It's no problem. I just wanted to clarify it for you.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 20, 2008 12:50:02 GMT -5
I was thinking last night after watching the animated series had Two-Face disappeared after killing Maroni, the film wouldn't have been as long and the natural conclusion of the Joker's arrest would have been a satisfactory ending. If the film had ended like this, and if they had the Joker RIGHT this would deserve all the hype it gets. If the Joker had LOOKED like the Joker in the comics and had more humor then it would had been great. All TDK Joker was an psychopath killer with white makeup on calling himself the Joker. In fact this film didnt even need the Joker in it. It would had been fine with HarveyDent/Two Face, Scarecrow and the Mob. The Joker was there to help sell some tixs. Dude, you didn't pay attention to the movie. The Joker changed EVERYTHING. The "rules" established concerning crime in Gotham in Batman Begins said that Batman was the symbol of hope, that the tide of crime was turning, etc. Joker works as the force of chaos that's out to completely destroy all that characters like Batman, Dent, and others worked for. And he succeeds, to a degree. He gets Dent to lose his mind, which he figures is "check" in the chess game he's playing with Batman for Gotham's "soul". Batman counters and makes his own "check" by telling Gordon to let Dent be a martyr and takes the heat himself, thereby saving Gotham's "soul" for another day. The heart of this movie is the tug of war between Batman and Joker. Just notice how Joker evolves from the simplistic "Kill the Batman" to realizing that neither will ever kill the other, for their own personal reasons. That relationship, and the devastating effect Joker has on the city, is what forces Batman to reconsider his status as "symbol", as he becomes "more than a hero". Without Joker, this film doesn't work nearly as well. EDIT: Also, I don't understand the comment that this was like a "Frank Miller" Batman. If anything, Burton's movie was more Miller, and this one was more straight-up crime drama and character study.
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MCMGM
Vegeta
WC's Official Jeff Buckley Stalkeress.
Red Sonic My Ass
Posts: 9,184
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Post by MCMGM on Jul 20, 2008 13:00:41 GMT -5
If the film had ended like this, and if they had the Joker RIGHT this would deserve all the hype it gets. If the Joker had LOOKED like the Joker in the comics and had more humor then it would had been great. All TDK Joker was an psychopath killer with white makeup on calling himself the Joker. In fact this film didnt even need the Joker in it. It would had been fine with HarveyDent/Two Face, Scarecrow and the Mob. The Joker was there to help sell some tixs. Dude, you didn't pay attention to the movie. The Joker changed EVERYTHING. The "rules" established concerning crime in Gotham in Batman Begins said that Batman was the symbol of hope, that the tide of crime was turning, etc. Joker works as the force of chaos that's out to completely destroy all that characters like Batman, Dent, and others worked for. And he succeeds, to a degree. He gets Dent to lose his mind, which he figures is "check" in the chess game he's playing with Batman for Gotham's "soul". Batman counters and makes his own "check" by telling Gordon to let Dent be a martyr and takes the heat himself, thereby saving Gotham's "soul" for another day. The heart of this movie is the tug of war between Batman and Joker. Just notice how Joker evolves from the simplistic "Kill the Batman" to realizing that neither will ever kill the other, for their own personal reasons. That relationship, and the devastating effect Joker has on the city, is what forces Batman to reconsider his status as "symbol", as he becomes "more than a hero". Without Joker, this film doesn't work nearly as well. EDIT: Also, I don't understand the comment that this was like a "Frank Miller" Batman. If anything, Burton's movie was more Miller, and this one was more straight-up crime drama and character study. ![](http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/1121/pg2_a_vanillaIce_300.jpg) Word to ya mutha.
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Post by tap on Jul 20, 2008 13:04:10 GMT -5
They covered that. Gordon himself said Batman is the hero Gotham deserves but not the one it needs at this time. He was already tainted in the public eye. Half the people and the police force wanted to bring him in. Harvey Dent had a whole press confrence about it! Beating up the whole SWAT team didn't help with that either. Just because Harvey died doesn't mean he won't still inspire people. He would be a martyr. Another aspect that they played up the whole movie is that Batman NEEDS the rep that he'll kill people, or else the criminals won't fear him. Now, instead of just going "I'm not going to talk. You'll beat me up but my boss will kill me." they'll have to think twice. I'm not trying to be a jerk when I say this... but did you even pay attention to the movie? I got that point, about criminals being so afraid that Batman will kill them. But to me that's not Batman. Batman doesn't break someone's legs. Batman doesn't beat the crap out of someone when the situation doesn't call for it. There's a difference between "oh my god, Batman's crazy, he *could* kill me" and "oh my god, Batman's crazy, he *will* kill me." Either way, the Joker won this movie any which way you slice it. One ferry blows up the other, Joker wins. Joker blows up the ferries, Joker wins. Joker gets caught, but Two-Face has now killed people, ruining Dent's reputation, Joker wins. Batman takes the fall for Dent like Dent took for Batman, but now Dent's dead, Joker wins. I at least have to applaud the Joker for sticking to his convictions. Nolan, to me, has made Batman a hypocrite. The power of Batman was that he walked that line of villainy but never crossed it. Such is the curse of BEING Batman. But in The Dark Knight, he already had the city under the possibility of mass surveillance without much prompting. And because the love of his life was in danger, he moved into very violent territory that isn't Batman unless it's something like The Dark Knight Returns, and honestly, Batman shouldn't be that jaded yet. And now he had the murder cred, what's NOT to stop him from becoming a full-blown megalomaniac? Not to mention the point, made in The Dark Knight, that no one elected Batman, no one asked for Batman, so why does he feel the need to be Gotham's saviour? For a film a lot of people are saying is "deep" and "layered," there is quite a mind-numbing simplification of "dying a hero or living long enough to be the villain." In the end, I view Nolan's Batman as a really big jerk, and his heroism has been compromised because of the selfish choices he made in the face of the Christ complex he set up for himself after his parents' death. Since he isn't the hero anymore, by proxy, he's the villain, or at least someone I kind of don't want to root for. Like I said, Batman, to me works best when he walks that line and doesn't cross it, but if I'm being presented with morally reductionist situations with false scruples, it's no wonder that I'm going to leave the theatre disliking Batman for being an arrogant jerk rather than applauding him for sticking ti his principles even in the face of soul-crushing adversity. AT LEAST, we're discussing why the film works (you) or why it doesn't (me). It's constructive rather than dismissive, as many comments elsewhere have been if someone didn't like it.
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Post by RoloSolo IV on Jul 20, 2008 13:13:38 GMT -5
If the film had ended like this, and if they had the Joker RIGHT this would deserve all the hype it gets. If the Joker had LOOKED like the Joker in the comics and had more humor then it would had been great. All TDK Joker was an psychopath killer with white makeup on calling himself the Joker. In fact this film didnt even need the Joker in it. It would had been fine with HarveyDent/Two Face, Scarecrow and the Mob. The Joker was there to help sell some tixs. The heart of this movie is the tug of war between Batman and Joker. Just notice how Joker evolves from the simplistic "Kill the Batman" to realizing that neither will ever kill the other, for their own personal reasons. That relationship, and the devastating effect Joker has on the city, is what forces Batman to reconsider his status as "symbol", as he becomes "more than a hero". Without Joker, this film doesn't work nearly as well. EDIT: Also, I don't understand the comment that this was like a "Frank Miller" Batman. If anything, Burton's movie was more Miller, and this one was more straight-up crime drama and character study. I disagree about what you said was the heart of the film. It's more of the rise and fall of Harvey Dent. If Nolan's intent was to make an crime drama, then having just Two Face, the Mob and Scarecrow would had worked fine. However because of the ending in Batman Begins, he needed to put the Joker in this one. Is Burton's Batman 89 film flawed? Yes it is. Did I see some Frank Miller style in it? Very little. Not as much as in TDK. In fact I won't even say it's all Frank Miller style. Some of it was based off the early 40's Batman. The Batman which used a gun (amazed most people don't know that). Edit : However that doesnt mean that's the best Batman era.
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Post by MiLo Duck on Jul 20, 2008 13:32:50 GMT -5
When did Frank Miller become a bad part of Batman? Next thing you know I'll hear Alan Moore is a hack and Neil Gaiman's Sandman is unreadable trash.
Batman is a character defined by the difficult choices he makes. The Joker is his arch nemesis because he is defined by making people make increasingly difficult choices. He is enthralled with Batman because he knows the one thing Batman won't do and is willing to push him over the edge to make a point, even if it means that Batman will kill him to do it.
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Post by CrazySting on Jul 20, 2008 13:34:56 GMT -5
I don't think it was that simple. I think when he realizes the ferry people didn't blow each other up, you can see the dissapointment in his face. Batman was vindicated by his faith in people, and Joker was proved wrong.
Also, re: dent. I think pinning the blame on batman allows dent to remain a hero to the people of gotham. Joker said it was a battle for the soul of gotham, and I think if you look at it like that, Batman won.
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Post by RoloSolo IV on Jul 20, 2008 13:40:30 GMT -5
When did Frank Miller become a bad part of Batman? I suggest you read Batman: The Dark Knight Strikes Again and All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder. If Batman is supposed to be someone that wants people killed, then read those.
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