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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Jul 20, 2008 13:41:41 GMT -5
They covered that. Gordon himself said Batman is the hero Gotham deserves but not the one it needs at this time. He was already tainted in the public eye. Half the people and the police force wanted to bring him in. Harvey Dent had a whole press confrence about it! Beating up the whole SWAT team didn't help with that either. Just because Harvey died doesn't mean he won't still inspire people. He would be a martyr. Another aspect that they played up the whole movie is that Batman NEEDS the rep that he'll kill people, or else the criminals won't fear him. Now, instead of just going "I'm not going to talk. You'll beat me up but my boss will kill me." they'll have to think twice. I'm not trying to be a jerk when I say this... but did you even pay attention to the movie? I got that point, about criminals being so afraid that Batman will kill them. But to me that's not Batman. Batman doesn't break someone's legs. Batman doesn't beat the crap out of someone when the situation doesn't call for it. There's a difference between "oh my god, Batman's crazy, he *could* kill me" and "oh my god, Batman's crazy, he *will* kill me." Either way, the Joker won this movie any which way you slice it. One ferry blows up the other, Joker wins. Joker blows up the ferries, Joker wins. Joker gets caught, but Two-Face has now killed people, ruining Dent's reputation, Joker wins. Batman takes the fall for Dent like Dent took for Batman, but now Dent's dead, Joker wins. I at least have to applaud the Joker for sticking to his convictions. Nolan, to me, has made Batman a hypocrite. The power of Batman was that he walked that line of villainy but never crossed it. Such is the curse of BEING Batman. But in The Dark Knight, he already had the city under the possibility of mass surveillance without much prompting. And because the love of his life was in danger, he moved into very violent territory that isn't Batman unless it's something like The Dark Knight Returns, and honestly, Batman shouldn't be that jaded yet. And now he had the murder cred, what's NOT to stop him from becoming a full-blown megalomaniac? Not to mention the point, made in The Dark Knight, that no one elected Batman, no one asked for Batman, so why does he feel the need to be Gotham's saviour? For a film a lot of people are saying is "deep" and "layered," there is quite a mind-numbing simplification of "dying a hero or living long enough to be the villain." In the end, I view Nolan's Batman as a really big jerk, and his heroism has been compromised because of the selfish choices he made in the face of the Christ complex he set up for himself after his parents' death. Since he isn't the hero anymore, by proxy, he's the villain, or at least someone I kind of don't want to root for. Like I said, Batman, to me works best when he walks that line and doesn't cross it, but if I'm being presented with morally reductionist situations with false scruples, it's no wonder that I'm going to leave the theatre disliking Batman for being an arrogant jerk rather than applauding him for sticking ti his principles even in the face of soul-crushing adversity. AT LEAST, we're discussing why the film works (you) or why it doesn't (me). It's constructive rather than dismissive, as many comments elsewhere have been if someone didn't like it. See, I love the Batman that will break bones and beat the crap out of people, but not kill. That, plus in this continuity Bruce has only been doing this for a year. He's still learning how to control his rage and hone it to where the criminals respect the possibility of severe injury without actually going there. He's learning where that line lies and how to walk it. What you just said clarifies a lot for me. You just don't like that version of Bats. When I said that pay attention part, I wasn't trying to sound like an ass though I knew it would sound that way. I really was wondering... "Did he not understand what was going on there?" Now I see what you are saying. I still don't agree, but I see. Also, yes, I know. I'm not trying to tell you or Rolo you're wrong for your opinions. Just that I don't agree. No reason it can't be discussed civily, and I'm keeping my eye on others when they start cussing and the like just because you guys don't like it.
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Jul 20, 2008 13:46:53 GMT -5
Someone beat you to the punch on the last page Slik. (You didn't have to delete your post Slik, I was just saying. ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png) ) By the way Han, Burton's Batman's did have some Miller influence. Including Batman straight up murdering people in Returns (sticking the bomb on that guy, the flame throwers, electrocution) and refusing to save people (just watching that girl fall off the building instead of saving her).
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Post by RoloSolo IV on Jul 20, 2008 13:52:48 GMT -5
By the way Han, Burton's Batman's did have some Miller influence. Including Batman straight up murdering people in Returns (sticking the bomb on that guy, the flame throwers, electrocution) and refusing to save people (just watching that girl fall off the building instead of saving her). Oh your right about that. Major reason I dont like Batman Returns. I was just talking about Batman 89. BR is weird, but then again it's Burton.
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Post by CrazySting on Jul 20, 2008 13:53:32 GMT -5
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Jul 20, 2008 13:56:21 GMT -5
By the way Han, Burton's Batman's did have some Miller influence. Including Batman straight up murdering people in Returns (sticking the bomb on that guy, the flame throwers, electrocution) and refusing to save people (just watching that girl fall off the building instead of saving her). Oh your right about that. Major reason I dont like Batman Returns. I was just talking about Batman 89. BR is weird, but then again it's Burton. Oh okay, I thought you meant both of Burton's works. Yeah I personally don't like Returns either. People consider it one of the better ones, but to me it had A LOT wrong with it. Including that start of the neon-campiness what with the circus gang and all.
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Post by macdaddysquid on Jul 20, 2008 13:59:12 GMT -5
what are the numbers now?
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Post by Mr. Backlund on Jul 20, 2008 14:00:30 GMT -5
I can respect people opinions in not enjoying the film based on their well-thought out explanations, but I really do not see that much of a Frank Miller extreme Batman in this film what-so-ever. The Batman in All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder is a borderline sociopath, going as far as killing cops and calling himself the "GD Batman". Even the Batman in TDKR and TDKSA are extremely brutal, jaded and burnt out individuals that seem more revolutionary and apt to overthrow the authorities than sacrifice themselves for the better of the city he protects. If anything, the Tim Burton movies show a Batman more apt to cross these lines, as he's effectively killed all of the villains and even committed murder.
The Batman in TDK has some elements of this, no doubt, as he does push the boundaries (though he has done so in more than just Frank Miller pieces) but sacrifices what he worked to create to preserve a legacy and the city of Gotham. He's not supposed to be beloved by all, trusted by the cops (typically only Gordon) and understood by all. I personally believe the character is at its best when you question what he's doing and if he is even capable of separating himself from the mask if he ever got the city to such a point he could move to the background. This played on that, as he made a number of attempts to put the Bat away for good, but kept coming back in and falling into it deeper.
The absolute hero, unmoveable and unwilling to comprimise some people seem to be describing Rorschach more than Batman.
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Post by RoloSolo IV on Jul 20, 2008 14:05:15 GMT -5
Oh okay, I thought you meant both of Burton's works. Yeah I personally don't like Returns either. People consider it one of the better ones, but to me it had A LOT wrong with it. Including that start of the neon-campiness what with the circus gang and all. The scene in Batman Returns when he places the bomb on the guy, knocks him down the sewer and does a smile like he enjoyed it. I laugh everytime I see that, knowing it's just bad Batman film.
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Jul 20, 2008 14:11:15 GMT -5
Oh okay, I thought you meant both of Burton's works. Yeah I personally don't like Returns either. People consider it one of the better ones, but to me it had A LOT wrong with it. Including that start of the neon-campiness what with the circus gang and all. The scene in Batman Returns when he places the bomb on the guy, knocks him down the sewer and does a smile like he enjoyed it. I laugh everytime I see that, knowing it's just bad Batman film. I also love how insanely easy the Batmobile is hacked into as well. That gang didn't even have to try. Only way it could have been easier was if they walked up and said "Open Seseme".
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Post by Smokey McTrees on Jul 20, 2008 14:15:57 GMT -5
They covered that. Gordon himself said Batman is the hero Gotham deserves but not the one it needs at this time. He was already tainted in the public eye. Half the people and the police force wanted to bring him in. Harvey Dent had a whole press confrence about it! Beating up the whole SWAT team didn't help with that either. Just because Harvey died doesn't mean he won't still inspire people. He would be a martyr. Another aspect that they played up the whole movie is that Batman NEEDS the rep that he'll kill people, or else the criminals won't fear him. Now, instead of just going "I'm not going to talk. You'll beat me up but my boss will kill me." they'll have to think twice. I'm not trying to be a jerk when I say this... but did you even pay attention to the movie? I got that point, about criminals being so afraid that Batman will kill them. But to me that's not Batman. Batman doesn't break someone's legs. Batman doesn't beat the crap out of someone when the situation doesn't call for it. There's a difference between "oh my god, Batman's crazy, he *could* kill me" and "oh my god, Batman's crazy, he *will* kill me." Either way, the Joker won this movie any which way you slice it. One ferry blows up the other, Joker wins. Joker blows up the ferries, Joker wins. Joker gets caught, but Two-Face has now killed people, ruining Dent's reputation, Joker wins. Batman takes the fall for Dent like Dent took for Batman, but now Dent's dead, Joker wins. I at least have to applaud the Joker for sticking to his convictions. Nolan, to me, has made Batman a hypocrite. The power of Batman was that he walked that line of villainy but never crossed it. Such is the curse of BEING Batman. But in The Dark Knight, he already had the city under the possibility of mass surveillance without much prompting. And because the love of his life was in danger, he moved into very violent territory that isn't Batman unless it's something like The Dark Knight Returns, and honestly, Batman shouldn't be that jaded yet. And now he had the murder cred, what's NOT to stop him from becoming a full-blown megalomaniac? Not to mention the point, made in The Dark Knight, that no one elected Batman, no one asked for Batman, so why does he feel the need to be Gotham's saviour? For a film a lot of people are saying is "deep" and "layered," there is quite a mind-numbing simplification of "dying a hero or living long enough to be the villain." In the end, I view Nolan's Batman as a really big jerk, and his heroism has been compromised because of the selfish choices he made in the face of the Christ complex he set up for himself after his parents' death. Since he isn't the hero anymore, by proxy, he's the villain, or at least someone I kind of don't want to root for. Like I said, Batman, to me works best when he walks that line and doesn't cross it, but if I'm being presented with morally reductionist situations with false scruples, it's no wonder that I'm going to leave the theatre disliking Batman for being an arrogant jerk rather than applauding him for sticking ti his principles even in the face of soul-crushing adversity. AT LEAST, we're discussing why the film works (you) or why it doesn't (me). It's constructive rather than dismissive, as many comments elsewhere have been if someone didn't like it. I think it works because of the points you mentioned. Do you not think Nolan meant for some viewers to feel that way? Batman does seem to have a complex, and eventually utilizing a sonar monitor screen his CEO objects to using is pure Big Brother, albeit for the cause of "good". This movie is all kinds of shades of gray, just as much as any other "serious" drama. You have valid points. Which is why the movie is full of EPIC WIN.
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Post by macdaddysquid on Jul 20, 2008 14:21:48 GMT -5
what are the numbers now? 155,340,000
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Jul 20, 2008 14:29:41 GMT -5
what are the numbers now? 155,340,000 Estimates at this point. Actuals will be out Monday.
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Post by CrazySting on Jul 20, 2008 15:03:27 GMT -5
I read Matt Damon turned down the role of Harvey Dent. Which would have been pretty interesting to see.
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Post by macdaddysquid on Jul 20, 2008 15:20:25 GMT -5
Aaron Eckhart was the right choice, he stole the show man
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Post by acressl on Jul 20, 2008 15:28:33 GMT -5
Aaron Eckhart was the right choice, he stole the show man Nope. Should have been Larry The Cable Guy. Help lend the film some much needed credibility. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) Kidding, everyone did a phenomenal job imo. I just finally saw it today and the only thing that bothers me at all is Bale's Batman voice. It's ridiculous. He sounds like Lance Henriksen if he smoked a carton of cigs and gargled with some rusty razor blades. It doesn't sound natural whatsoever.
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mo
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,785
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Post by mo on Jul 20, 2008 15:40:46 GMT -5
I just finally saw it today and the only thing that bothers me at all is Bale's Batman voice. It's ridiculous. He sounds like Lance Henriksen if he smoked a carton of cigs and gargled with some rusty razor blades. It doesn't sound natural whatsoever. Yeah, I thought the voice sounded a bit too much in the first one too.
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Post by macdaddysquid on Jul 20, 2008 15:45:49 GMT -5
The voice didn't bother me, he has to disguise it. Especially around people who know him as Wayne
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Post by Maidpool w/ Cleaning Action on Jul 20, 2008 15:46:28 GMT -5
I'm with Macdaddy on this one.
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Post by rrm15 on Jul 20, 2008 15:47:06 GMT -5
The voice didn't bother me, he has to disguise it. Especially around people who know him as Wayne What he said. Honestly, the voice is kind of annoying to me, but I understand why he has to do it, so its fine.
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Post by acressl on Jul 20, 2008 15:49:59 GMT -5
The voice didn't bother me, he has to disguise it. Especially around people who know him as Wayne I understand the philosophy, but it sounds to me like he's at ten when all he needed was an eight or something. A minor thing however, didn't hurt the goings on or anything. Also, gotta love the Joker's henchman policy. Guy A is instructed to kill guy B who is instructed to kill guy C and so on and so forth.
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