The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Dec 22, 2008 18:54:52 GMT -5
I'm enjoying reading the debate between you two (Frank Gotch and dizzy), but at this point it kinda seems like you guys agree on a lot of points and it's kinda been reduced to an argument about who was more over in the WWF between the two, which seems kind of unprovable either way when both were clearly over.
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dizzy
Trap-Jaw
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Post by dizzy on Dec 22, 2008 21:21:59 GMT -5
If LOD had run down to ringside right after Demolition won the titles the crowd would have popped HUGE! You still didn't actually answer the question. Yeah, LOD may have gotten a response by entering the arena, but I meant how would the fans react if they ATTACKED Demolition. Do you think the very same WWF fans (who had spent the last few years in love with Demolition) who just cheered the living hell out of Demolition would immediately turn on Demolition just because the Legion of Doom attacked them? Hell no, they would've started booing LOD! Like I said before, I have tapes of many WWF events from Demolition's heydey (PPV and TV shows), and the huge pops Demolition was getting from those fans indicate to me that WWF fans never cared one lick about who/what Demolition was allegedly imitating. Actually, that's exactly what did happen. Hell, during the 1999 Road Warriors shoot interview (which I mentioned earlier), Hawk flat out stated that this was true. Even the damn Road Warriors believed Demolition got the shaft. Yep, everyone in here (including me) knows what it means. But it isn't a word.
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Post by britishbulldog on Dec 22, 2008 21:31:25 GMT -5
I chose Demo. I watched LOD in their prime and thought they were great. I just liked Demo better. I also understand that they were Vinces Version to a point, however the real copy of LOD was POP. Same look and pretty much same move set. They were the only one of the LOD teams that failed in WWE
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dizzy
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 477
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Post by dizzy on Dec 22, 2008 21:39:07 GMT -5
however the real copy of LOD was POP. Same look and pretty much same move set. They were the only one of the LOD teams that failed in WWF Yeah, hell, the Powers of Pain even had the same haircuts as the Legion of Doom! The Powers of Pain should've been an option on this poll. It would've been interesting to see if they got any votes. I'm enjoying reading the debate between you two (Frank Gotch and dizzy), but at this point it kinda seems like you guys agree on a lot of points and it's kinda been reduced to an argument about who was more over in the WWF between the two, which seems kind of unprovable either way when both were clearly over. Yeah, I'm going to bow out of debating because I won't ever concede that LOD was more over in the WWF than Demolition was. The Legion of Doom had success in the WWF (something I've never denied, despite Gotch's ramblings), but they didn't surpass Demoliton's dominance. Two observations I can share though: 1. Both teams are neck and neck on the voting. I doubt Demolition would fare this well if they were merely a cheap imitation. 2. I have shoot interviews in my possession of the Road Warriors and Demolition, and listened to all four guys (Hawk and Animal, Ax and Smash) talk about one another. These are the things that strike me about what they say. -- All four men stated that their 1990 feud was poorly handled by the WWF and that Demoliton got the bad end of the stick at the end (yes, even Hawk and Animal conceded to the last part). -- All four consider themselves to be friends with one another. -- All four men speak highly of one another as people and respect what they accomplished. -- When Hawk and Animal were asked if they were angry about Demolition "copying" their gimmick, they said "nope, imitation is flattery". -- Demolition said that the LOD respected them and never came to them with accusations of imitation. -- Both teams agreed that they had different wrestling styles. Demolition expounded and said that this constituted evidence that they didn't truly imitate LOD. -- Demolition stated that the Legion of Doom was a little overrated when they arrived in the WWF. The Road Warriors said about themselves that they were never properly used in the WWF, and didn't care much for their careers in the WWF. (This is certainly contrary to all the ass kissing that Animal did four years later on the WWE produced DVD that was released about his team.) I can probably think of more things, but my point overall is how much the Legion of Doom and Demolition agreed with one another about their own comparisons between their respective teams.
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Post by FrankGotch on Dec 22, 2008 22:43:48 GMT -5
"You still didn't actually answer the question. Yeah, LOD may have gotten a response by entering the arena, but I meant how would the fans react if they ATTACKED Demolition. Do you think the very same WWF fans (who had spent the last few years in love with Demolition) who just cheered the living hell out of Demolition would immediately turn on Demolition just because the Legion of Doom attacked them? Hell no, they would've started booing LOD!"
I did answer your question you just choose to ignor it and write whatever you wanted to. Like I said before if LOD came down and started fighting the Demos the crowd would have gone nuts. Who became face and heel from that point on would have been up to the bookers.
"Like I said before, I have tapes of many WWF events from Demolition's heydey (PPV and TV shows), and the huge pops Demolition was getting from those fans indicate to me that WWF fans never cared one lick about who/what Demolition was allegedly imitating."
And like I said the Demos did a good job of getting over as more then just the guys who imitate the Road Warriors. It still doesn't change the fact that people knew that the team was originally created as a ripoff.
"Actually, that's exactly what did happen. Hell, during the 1999 Road Warriors shoot interview (which I mentioned earlier), Hawk flat out stated that this was true. Even the damn Road Warriors believed Demolition got the shaft."
Got any footage of that? Its not that I don't trust you, its just that you seem to have trouble comprehending things somtimes.
"Yep, everyone in here (including me) knows what it means. But it isn't a word."
WORD. A sound or a combination of sounds, or its representation in writing or printing, that symbolizes and communicates a meaning and may consist of a single morpheme or of a combination of morphemes. Yeah I'd say smark qualifies as a word.
"Yeah, I'm going to bow out of debating because I won't ever concede that LOD was more over in the WWF than Demolition was. The Legion of Doom had success in the WWF (something I've never denied, despite Gotch's ramblings), but they didn't surpass Demoliton's dominance."
Demolition was popular no doubt about it, but here is where I make the distinction. Demolition got big pops depending on their story line and booking. LOD got pops because they were LOD, heel or face LOD always got a pop, Demolition didn't.
"-- All four men stated that their 1990 feud was poorly handled by the WWF and that Demoliton got the bad end of the stick at the end (yes, even Hawk and Animal conceded to the last part). -- All four consider themselves to be friends with one another. -- All four men speak highly of one another as people and respect what they accomplished."
I'd expect no less Animal Hawk and Ax all broke into the business together in Minnesota.
"The Powers of Pain should've been an option on this poll. It would've been interesting to see if they got any votes."
Agreed
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dizzy
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 477
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Post by dizzy on Dec 23, 2008 0:18:31 GMT -5
I did answer your question you just choose to ignor it and write whatever you wanted to. Like I said before if LOD came down and started fighting the Demos the crowd would have gone nuts. Who became face and heel from that point on would have been up to the bookers. No No No. You just aren't getting it. I'm not talking about the bookers, or the future. I'm talking about THE FANS, RIGHT THERE IN THE SKYDOME, RIGHT THAT MOMENT.If Legion of Doom had come to the ring and attacked Demolition, I highly dispute the notion that the fans would immediately start cheering the Legion of Doom and booing Demolition. The reason I originally posed this hypothetical is to refute your earlier intimation that something like that would happen without variation in any given situation, just because Legion of Doom were the "originals". I think that dude above us is correct. I think we do agree on some things, because your statement is here is just a rewording of my statement. Vince McMahon did indeed create Demolition as the WWF version of the Road Warriors. My point was that WWF fans didn't care, whether they knew or not, because Ax and Smash made them fall in love with Demolition. Yes, and I've already cited my source. It was the 1999 Road Warriors shoot interview. You can purchase it online, as I did. That's not entirely true. The Road Warriors were booed tremendously when they first started, and then the fans took a liking to their brutal style. That's exactly what happened with Demolition. They were heels at first, but they became so hugely popular as heels that the WWF was forced to turn them face (at the 1988 Survivor Series). They were not turned face because of a storyline. Demolition's enormous popularity only waned when Ax fell ill from his allergic reaction to shellfish and couldn't complete for awhile, and then Crush was brought in. Then fans started to turn away simply because of the fact that it wasn't the original two members any longer. I will grant you that Legion of Doom still got pops right up til the end of their careers, but if Demolition hadn't gone south with Ax being replaced by Crush, I think things would've been much the same for Demolition. We'll never know for sure.... but there is no denying that Demolition got screwed by Ax's illness. You just can't expect that Crush and Smash could succeed as Demolition So irrespective of the Legion of Doom, irrespective of the Hart Foundation/Rockers/other face teams, irrespective of the bookers -- Demolition got buried by the loss of the original two members. It's that simple. Actually it was Smash, Barry Darsow, who was from Minnesota with Hawk and Animal.
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Post by horsemen4ever on Dec 23, 2008 0:21:31 GMT -5
It depends which Road Warriors you are talking about. If it is the 80's NWA / AWA Road Warriors, than it is the Road Warriors by a mile. Maybe it is because the wrestling (except for the AWA) I liked better than the WWF circus / comic book land that Demolition came from.
If you are talking about the nuditor WWF Legion Of Doom, than it is close. Probably would still pick LOD, but still it would be close.
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Post by willywonka666 on Dec 27, 2008 11:53:13 GMT -5
The Road Warriors. They were even better in their pre WWF days. They were even more intimidating and more intense with their matches.
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Joekishi
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,490
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Post by Joekishi on Dec 27, 2008 15:27:03 GMT -5
I liked the Powers of Pain though, they were over as faces in both NWA and WWF, it was the heel turn that did them in
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Post by willywonka666 on Dec 27, 2008 16:48:03 GMT -5
Vince wanted the LOD in 87'. They refused so he brought out Demolition. The fact that he got the Road Warriors in 1990 and pushed Demolition down the totem pole, rather than start a tremendous feud is really quite disheartening
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dizzy
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 477
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Post by dizzy on Dec 27, 2008 22:34:38 GMT -5
The Road Warriors. They were even better in their pre WWF days. They were even more intimidating and more intense with their matches. That's what I've been intimating all along. That's why they succeeded much more elsewhere than they did in WWF. They were more brutal, more violent, more sinister in their NWA days. But in the WWF, they were too watered down, and Demolition had stolen too much of the "brutal tag team" thunder for them to be as effective as they had been. Vince wanted the LOD in 87'. They refused so he brought out Demolition. The fact that he got the Road Warriors in 1990 and pushed Demolition down the totem pole, rather than start a tremendous feud is really quite disheartening Both had been built up so huge (in different companies) that it could've been the biggest tag team feud EVER. But Vince and the office botched it in a major way.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 27, 2008 22:56:17 GMT -5
I liked the Powers of Pain though, they were over as faces in both NWA and WWF, it was the heel turn that did them in I've always been a fan of Barbarian, so I agree; turning them heel was really what started both he and Warlord's eventual spiral down the card.
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dizzy
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 477
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Post by dizzy on Dec 28, 2008 16:29:09 GMT -5
I've always been a fan of Barbarian, so I agree; turning them heel was really what started both he and Warlord's eventual spiral down the card. I disagree, both Warlord and Barbarian were better as heels. Barbarian in particular was a monstrously great heel. He could've been more successful if pushed harder. Warlord was a little more bland in terms of character, so I don't think keeping him babyface could've saved him anyway.
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Post by BlackJackRobby on Dec 28, 2008 22:44:37 GMT -5
I picked the Demo!
But it's close enough that I would take both because I'm hardcore.
which in the case of four men with leather and spikes means I'm really really hardcore.
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Post by VenomFang on Dec 28, 2008 23:04:09 GMT -5
What was the reason for Vince burying Demolition after the fued with the LOD ? Was it because he had heat with Ax because surely he could have still made more money with them.
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dizzy
Trap-Jaw
Posts: 477
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Post by dizzy on Dec 28, 2008 23:38:34 GMT -5
What was the reason for Vince burying Demolition after the fued with the LOD ? Was it because he had heat with Ax because surely he could have still made more money with them. The heat with Ax didn't come until later, when the gimmick was all but dismantled. Vince and the office buried Demolition because they thought that the Legion of Doom would supercede them and nobody would miss Demolition. Of course, that didn't happen. Legion of Doom didn't fare as well in the WWF as Demolition had, and they never overshadowed Demolition's legacy. Not at the time anyway. Nowadays, Demolition is on the same blackballed boat as Randy Savage, their contributions to the WWF are completely ignored. On another note, I'm really digging the fact that Demolition is in the lead in votes right now! It's great that Demolition still hangs in there in the minds of diehard wrestling fans.
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