Is Orton the problem?

[VengeanceGOD]

Over the last few months we've experienced some terrible main events, starting with Orton/HHH at Mania all the way up to Orton/Cena at breaking point. And we always seem to scratch our heads at why they're so boring. I think I know why, and I think his name is Randy Orton.

I know Orton's put on some great matches in the past, and I know his viper persona has made him insanely well liked as a heel. But the main event matches involving him recently have pretty much all been awful, except when he could tag out to a partner.

I think they're slow paced and hard to stay awake during because a) That's a character choice - Randy does everything slow these days b) because he's a smoker. He's got less stamina in the ring than most guys.

It also may just be that he has trouble coming up with a good story for a match, leading to HHH tearing him to pieces at Mania or Cena beating him in ten seconds at Breaking Point.

[MGH]

I buy that he's part of the problem, but more so creative is. There's only so many times you can wrestle the same person with the same stories and be creative enough to come up with new scenarios for the matches. Everyone has limits.

[Bubble Lead]

I think Orton does his job well. Unfortunately his job since Wrestlemania has been to get the shit beat out of him most of the match and make faces look good.

He is like a main event Honky Tonk Man at this point.

[BlackJackRobby]

It's more of a creative problem. Orton had enormous heat and was getting huge buzz all at the same time, and then the storylines got so cut and paste simple that the edge was lost.

The wrestlers are putting what they can into the matches I believe but there is no juice or reason other then the belt.

[Lancers]

I don't like how long it takes for him to get to the ring. One time he came out from behind the curtains, I flipped the channel. Here's a highly-exaggerated real-life interpretation.

Rev Theory: "I HEAR VOICES IN MY HEAD...THEY COUNSEL...."

*click*

Nancy Grace: "And they found the college student's torso in the trunk of a 2002 Mazda Miata!"

*click*

Kate Gosselin: "So I took the kids to go visit the crayon factory because I thought to myself...I really would like to throw my ex-husband into a tub of scalding hot wax."

*click*

Rev Theory: "All the lawyers are defenseless...."

*click*

Ted Mosby: "Kids. I like to tell you a story about how I met your mother. But before I do, let me tell you a completely unrelated story about the time Barney and Marshall got trapped in an elevator with New York Yankees outfielder Johnny Damon."

*click*

Mike Tirico: "Ravens 24, Chargers 6. By the way, did you see Brett Favre on NFL Sunday Countdown yesterday? Not only is Brett Favre a great quarterback, but he's also a great analyst. Brett Favre Brett Favre Brett Favre Brett Favre..."

*click*

Rev Theory: "All you judges you are guilty...."

*click*

Ron Jaworski: "Brett Favre Brett Favre Brett Favre Brett Favre Brett Favre."

*turns off television and jumps out first-floor window*

[VengeanceGOD]

By the time you land, he'll STILL be on the way to the ring.

[Deleted]

hell you could go to the hospital, treat your injuries, come back, watch a porno, and he'd still just be getting in the ring

[ginohernandez]

Orton's character is being held back more than anyone by this PG stuff. He can't be a full out loony because there's stuff he can't do.

[Solid Stryk-Dizzle]

What is he supposed to do?

I want to know what kind of crazy person you want to see.

[britishbulldog]

Oct 4, 2009 21:13:43 GMT -5 ginohernandez said:

Orton's character is being held back more than anyone by this PG stuff. He can't be a full out loony because there's stuff he can't do.

Not sure how much I buy this. If you look back at Savage/Steamboat. Savage was as crazy as anyone. It was PG then and worked. Now I admit I have not liked Orton since day one, however, I do thihk he could do more. Creative is definately a huge problem too.

[Bob Schlapowitz]

<walks VEEEEEERY slowly into this thread making a silly, supposedly intimidating "crazy! psycho!" facial expression>


Randy..................................












Orton...................................








Is..............................






One of the................................................








Most boring..............................................................







<glares around bug-eyed>











Wrestlers........................................................







I've ever seen................................................

[VengeanceGOD]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks so. Seriously, it's gotten to the point where I'm rooting for Cena.

[Mac]

He's OK, and thats part of the problem, theres a lot of guys who are OK, wrestling in matches that are OK, against the same people over and over... it waters down the level of OK to "Meh" which is what the product is largely now.

[Krimzon]

Orton's not the problem. The people booking his character & matches (besides tonight) are the problem.

[Deleted]

Honestly, I think the main problem with Raw for me, personally, is Orton. Mostly since the show's based around him and he really is in my opinion one of the blandest men I've ever seen in my life.

[Bub (BLM)]

Oct 4, 2009 22:12:32 GMT -5 Krimzon said:

Orton's not the problem. The people booking his character & matches (besides tonight) are the problem.

Fully agree. He was the most engaging character on RAW back in late 2008 and early 2009, but they panicked at the pops he was getting and aborted the whole thing. You should never, ever dumb down a character that is getting over. If a heel is getting pops, so be it. Don't turn your back on something that's clearly getting people into your product.

[Allie Kitsune]

I still like Orton, but I really don't think much is being done with him, or anyone on RAW. They just book around "We have to make sure DX gets this much time, and Cena gets this much time, and Orton gets this much time", and so on, so instead of anything feeling organic, it all feels like it was jiggered around with to make sure it fills a specific length of time.

[comahan]

Orton plays his role PERFECTLY imo.

I just think all the amazing that he does is canceled out, or nearly canceled out, by a staff that has zero idea how to book a strong heel while trying to keep babyfaces like HHH and Cena protected.

[Deleted]

Oct 4, 2009 22:12:32 GMT -5 Krimzon said:

Orton's not the problem. The people booking his character & matches (besides tonight) are the problem.

Ding, ding, ding! From Rumble to the IED reveal, he was the hottest thing in WWE. He got over and, people started to pay attention to him and like him, so WWE cut his legs out from under him with the IED crap and by the time they had him say he was lying, it was too late.

Add in a steady stream of Cena, Trips and, Batista instead something fresh (remember the MVP and Mark Henry stuff, that was good) they go back to the same "winning" formula from the last three years.

[Dr. T is an alien]

There are a number of problems, of which Orton is only a small part of.

1) The insistence of the WWE to only rely on Cena, Orton, and HHH on the Raw main event. This is the biggest issue, as Smackdown and to a lesser extent ECW have to deal with the same limitations as the Raw, but are not limited to the same 3 players.

2) The failure of the single brand PPVs. This means that they use twice as many PPV slots for the WWE title.

3) The hiring standards for WWE creative, and the purported mindset of said creative members. This is largely reflective of Stephanie's and Vince's managing techniques.

There are a few simple ways to deal with these problems.

1) Orton is a good heel character. While he is champ, there are good opportunities to mix things up a little during the lulls between big PPV matches. Orton can easily be booked as a heel that attempts to dominate Raw (not much of a stretch from what has already been done), and he has the occasional high-middle card face that objects. MVP, Henry, and Kofi all could be inserted into the random PPV slots during which the main selling point of the PPV is some other match or gimmick, such as the Rumble, Survivor Series, or whenever Smackdown has a big title match that can sell a PPV.

2) They will never go back to the split PPV pattern, but they can mimic the effect of the pattern. Interesting PPV gimmicks, particularly cross-promotional gimmicks, can eleviate the issue somewhat. Survivor Series needs to retain the mixed-brand team standard. Bragging Rights appears to be a cross promotional PPV, and the Rumble always will be. A return of the KotR with the top stars being the only ones on it (which can lead to "impromptu" matches in the later rounds that can be explored at a later date) would also help/

3) Smackdown is better than Raw primarily because Michael Hayes runs it as a wrestling show. Sure, there may still be people hired by Stephanie on staff, but it is still different. It doesn't help Raw's cause that there is a McMahon in the main event on Raw, which means that they will always focus on him, as they are compelled to do with all angles involving anyone in the McMahon family. That means others get ignored.

They also need to get away from thinking that they are anything that they are not. Yes, they are in competition with all sorts of shows, but they are not a sitcom/drama/whatever. Hiring writers from those genres does not hurt, but hiring them exclusively is stupid. They are wrestling programs, and they need to remember that. Russo might have had his faults, but one of his strengths is that he is a lifelong fan and therefore writes wrestling programs. It is why SD is better than Raw as well, since that is what Hayes focuses on.