Here's my issue with the "Bragging Rights" logic.

[Hulk With A Mustache]

Oct 20, 2009 23:57:09 GMT -5 Dr. T is an alien said:

Yeah, the draft and all of these damned trades kill the sense of brand loyalty by the wrestlers because the brands are not loyal to the wrestlers. In my mind, wrestlers should only switch brands when their contracts "expire", like Batista did. That way every roster change can be viewed as a potentially big deal, since the general managers care enough to bid for the guy changing brands.

I mean, think about it. Why should someone like Matt Hardy care about Smackdown? Over the course of less than a year he has changed brands 3 times, with him spending time on all 3 brands. Why should he care at all?

Exactly. Why should I care when anyone on any brand could be on any show at a moment's notice? Hell, sometimes you don't even need to be drafted or traded. Remember when Bobby Lashley was ECW Champion and he spent more time on RAW than on ECW!? Why should I care for someone defending the name of ECW when he's basically a RAW guy?

[Shy Guy]

if that's your issue, then shouldn't you say how YOU don't care as opposed to NOBODY?

i care. i'm sure not caring is in the minority here. and i'm also sure that your one opinion isn't going to change wwe's booking for anything.

YOU don't care. other people do.

[Tombi]

This place is bloody depressing sometimes. I'd be lying if I said the 'crap wasn't a great place to go to for some logical arguments; but with all due respect this sure as heck wasn't one. I care because I find what I watch entertaining, and I quite frankly couldn't give a rats ass about some of the rather biased "logic" mentioned here.

You do? Awesome, no seriously - more power to you, you have a good mind. You're not "everybody" though, you as a fan can only represent yourself. By all means state your opinion, but one of my most bitter pet peeves in life is the idea of speaking for other people just because you think you're so right. This is especially annoying in the IWC just considering how much of the audience we people actually make up; and how completely irrelevant one's personal preference usually is.

Even though there's barely anything to argue amongst all of the "I HATE EVERYTHING!" going on here, I do think there's legit points to be made on both sides. I think some people are overthinking the concept just a bit. It just comes down to Bragging Rights being a new big Pay-Per-View that gives the 'best of both rosters' a chance to represent their brand, make their GM happy and possibly move up in the ranks if they do a good job. There isn't really much else to it - both shows take shots at eachother, both shows have their share of fan favourites and uber heels (personal opinions ASIDE) and they're going to compete. It's a simple concept and I'm quite looking forward to it.

The draft isn't perfect - which is probably why The Bella Twins aren't reprsenting their brand; but I don't think guys like Matt Hardy are the best example. He really has spent the better part of his career on Smackdown, even though he moved to ECW for a while. It's not hard to imagine he has some love for the brand after all that. Bobby Lashley's a pretty good example...problem is he's not employed and it focuses on events that happened two years ago. Like I said though; I think it's more about promotion than pride, but that's just the way I see it.

[Lancers]

Oct 21, 2009 15:02:37 GMT -5 Shy Guy said:

i care. i'm sure not caring is in the minority here. and i'm also sure that your one opinion isn't going to change wwe's booking for anything..

Actually, it can. It was less than hospitable letters I sent to the WWF offices in Stamford that prohibited Ted DiBiase from remaining WWF Champion after buying the title from Andre the Giant and thus resulting in the tournament at Wrestlemania IV. You're welcome everyone!

Side note: DiBiase still holds a grudge against me over this these days. I'm not gonna apologize. That was a dick move on his part. And he knows it.

[Lair of the Shadow MaDaBa]

Oct 21, 2009 15:02:37 GMT -5 Shy Guy said:

if that's your issue, then shouldn't you say how YOU don't care as opposed to NOBODY?

i care. i'm sure not caring is in the minority here. and i'm also sure that your one opinion isn't going to change wwe's booking for anything.

YOU don't care. other people do.

I just...I've watched this stuff, and all I could think of is "How could ANYONE watch this? How is this entertaining? Am I missing something that other people can see? HOW IS THIS ENTERTAINING???"

Seriously, what am I missing? I want to understand.

[ghettooverlord]

The broader issue is that this all falls back on the nonsensical booking required to substantiate a gimmick pay-per-view schedule. "Bragging Rights" simply doesn't have the prestige of a "Survivor Series", where fans believe the nature of the event supercedes the feud and the participants involved.

[Hanzo]

Oct 21, 2009 18:36:41 GMT -5 Lair of the Shadow MaDaBa said:

Seriously, what am I missing?

To paraphrase WC member, faceinyourcrowd, Christian and the boys are bringing the goods every Tuesday night.

That's what you're missing.

[Dean-o]

Maybe if they had, I don't know, more then 3 (!!!) weeks to build this $40 wallet rape, I would care.

Other then that, I do not care one damn bit.

[Allie Kitsune]

Oct 20, 2009 22:24:03 GMT -5 Lair of the Shadow MaDaBa said:

Oct 20, 2009 22:18:48 GMT -5 bradtherad said:

Well you know what WWE doesn't care that nobody cares.

Why?

Because like always, this pay per view will bring in the $$$!

And what a sad commentary THAT is.

I have a question: who likes this stuff? Who watches all the horrible comedy, the nonexistent matches, sees the $50 price tag for these shows and thinks to themselves, "This is what I should be paying my money on. I am now making a conscious decision to pay for three hours of this product, which is attempting to pass itself off as entertainment."?

Well, let's just get one thing out of the way.

This PPV only exists to pimp sales of SvR 2010.

Now I never buy (and therefore don't see) PPVs at all, because they're so damned expensive, and I've stopped watching SD because 3 of my least favorites are at the top of the card (and in the World Title Match at Bragging Rights, along with someone I'm indifferent about these days). But I still watch RAW and ECW because there are a lot of wrestlers I want to see on those shows, regardless of if they're not in the title hunt or getting to put on 30 minute long matches.

If that makes people think that makes me less of a "true" fan, so be it. But that's how it is, for me.

[Andrew is Good]

The problem with it is they've done so much cross brand stuff over the past few years, it's ridiculous.

That, and the fact that they are still the same companies. Trades aren't that big of a deal, they're usually just made by a celebrity (now, that's a great way to seriously structure a company, have a celebrity make trades).

Ok, I just started a new rant.

In kayfabe terms, General Manager Tiffany is a moron. She traded two chicks for 1, and got nothing but one chick, who wasn't that good in the first place. Now granted, the Bella Twins are more like props then they are human beings, but still, I think she could have at least tried to get something from that.

Not caring is why ECW's ratings are in the shitter. Think about this. Back when the new ECW started, they were pulling 2.5 ratings. Now, they can barely get to 1.3. Actually, that's a good week now. Now, not saying the ECW product is bad, but there's no real reason to watch it. It's not can't miss tv.

Not caring is why Raw's ratings are bad, and now 3.3s are normal ratings, when for a long time, it was 3.8 to 4.2. People are turning off. And the Smackdown team, like, I love Eric Escobar and Drew McIntrye, but what the hell are they doing representing the Smackdown brand? I know they're trying to get more of a heel dynamic going with Smackdown, but come on. Triple H was right on Raw. Who the f*** are those guys?

You have to build people up, you can't just throw people on a team and say, they're Smackdown. And like, with Shawn Michaels, Shawn is the only one who is established on Raw, and everyone else was traded back and forth.

I don't know. It's also the fact that it's all under one umbrella too.

[Allie Kitsune]

Oct 21, 2009 18:36:41 GMT -5 Lair of the Shadow MaDaBa said:

Oct 21, 2009 15:02:37 GMT -5 Shy Guy said:

if that's your issue, then shouldn't you say how YOU don't care as opposed to NOBODY?

i care. i'm sure not caring is in the minority here. and i'm also sure that your one opinion isn't going to change wwe's booking for anything.

YOU don't care. other people do.

I just...I've watched this stuff, and all I could think of is "How could ANYONE watch this? How is this entertaining? Am I missing something that other people can see? HOW IS THIS ENTERTAINING???"

Seriously, what am I missing? I want to understand.

See, comments like this come off as "Come on people, I'm smarter than the rest of you! Why can't you see that this all sucks! I see that it sucks!". I hope that's not what was intended.

But I don't really think anyone can use any type of wrestling fandom as a measure of intelligence, nor should anybody look at it that way.

[Bubble Lead]

The whole thing reminds me of a spiel my friend has about how sports fans at this point are merely cheering for graphic designers. [logo, tshirt and uniform makers]

[Cretinous Humanoid]

Oct 20, 2009 23:13:54 GMT -5 H-Fist said:

MaDaBa, completely fair points. Every last one of them. I blame it on the breakdown of society. I blame that on MBAs, human resource departments, the internet, smart technology, and bears.*

The big, huge, elephant-in-the-room problem is that WWE's concept banks on Brand Loyalty being more important than the decades-old Face/Heel Dynamics around which all wrestling conflict revolves. So I, as a Smackdown! viewer, ought to be "cheering for" McIntyre, Escobar, Dolph, and Jericho on Sunday instead of Triple H and Shawn f***ing Michaels.

Really, WWE?

Or is their goal to make Raw seem better by making the entire crowd cheer for RAW (actually, Shawn and Hunter) over Smackdown! (actually Jericho et al)?

What can they gain from EITHER of those scenarios? Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Bupkus.

I want desperately to care who the champions are in the same way that I care about the top athletes in a sport and the protagonists of hero/epic literature. I've made my Joseph Campbell/hero's quest argument before, so I won't repeat it here. But I agree. The method to WWE's booking idiocy is just so incredibly uncreative and ineffective. Raw has its Three Stooges (Cena is Curly, Hunter is Larry, Orton is Moe) and Smackdown has seen its star-creation-machine go on the fritz with the reintroduction of Batista and return of Taker. Arrgh!!!!!




* - bears may or may not be code for issues not welcome on the forum; bears are, in either case, godless killing machines who will take your picnic basket, nap in your walk-in refrigerator, and kill your family without one shred of remorse.

What about Shemp?

[Deleted]

How exactly are the brands meaningless?
They keep the rosters divided into three parts
If you think that all a brand is is a graphic next to the name then I really don't know what to say to you
I see it as who they will be facing
Lets say MVP goes to SD once more
Then MVP will face Chris Jericho,Shad,JTG,CM Punk,John Morrison,Mike Knox,Finlay,Charlie Haas and Dolph Ziggler
However if MVP goes to RAW he faces Kofi Kingston,Shawn Michaels,Triple H,Jack Swagger,Chris Masters,Randy Orton,Chavo,Primo,Bourne and Cena
If he goes to ECW we'll see him go against Christian,Ryder,Sheamus,Shelton,Reks,Tatsu,Burchill,Hurricane,Kozlov,Jackson and Dreamer

These are the brands
On special occasions such as The Royal Rumble you may see interactions between RAW and ECW Stars or SD and RAW stars
Too keep these rosters from becoming stagnant they hold a draft once a year
Once in awhile stars will be moved as part of storylines(Think the last one was Matt to SD to feud with Jeff)
I'm 39 and I care because I consider myself a smackdown fan but generally like everyone on the RAW team more than there Counterparts on team SD
Starwise it looks like RAW has SD beat but three of RAW's guys are heels who have something against there teammates or have allegiance to SD
However at this point now SD are pretty much all faces except Jericho and The Harts
So I want to see what happens
As such I will order the PPV
There's 30$ accounted for right there

[AriadosMan]

Thing is, I can see why no one would care about this PPV. It has no "history" to speak of, brand crossovers/trades are so common that the brands have lost most of the "identity" they have, and most importantly, PPV spam isn't a wrestling tradition anyway (since its pretty much spawned by competition and popularity of the Monday Night Wars).

Going after a guy for saying he "doesn't care" about Bragging Rights (even the title sounds generic) just seems excessive. If PPVs seem special, they will get attention. If not...you don't see a million posts pining for the loss of Cyber Sunday, do you?

[Hulk With A Mustache]

I'm half and half on Bragging Rights. I don't care about the 7 on 7 tag match or the Iron Man Match. But, I do care about the Miz/Morrison match and the Fatal Fourway for the World Heavyweight Title.

[H-Fist]

Oct 21, 2009 22:07:38 GMT -5 Bubble Lead said:

The whole thing reminds me of a spiel my friend has about how sports fans at this point are merely cheering for graphic designers. [logo, tshirt and uniform makers]

Screw the designers. We cheer for dirty laundry, son. Because y'all know we boo the hell out of a new acquisition who doesn't slide, dive, sweat, and get dirty to earn the paycheck.

And I don't think MaDaBa's comment about "how is this entertaining" needs to be demeaning towards other fans. I don't think it is. There are certain things I love about WWE right now: CM Punk as a main event talent; Rey and Jericho consistently delivering the goods in their matches; Cody and Ted proving they belong; Morrison upping his game time and time again; Miz growing into a real threat; Zack Ryder making "woo woo woo" woork, er, work. But I also ABSOLUTELY HATE (<-- note my inside yelling voice there; here it is again: ) HATE!!! a lot of WWE's booking.

I look back on the booking of the WWF Rock 'n' Wrestling Era, when there was logic to what was going on. Even the outlandish stories and booking ideas did, in fact, have some internal logic, at the very least. But that seems gone now. Likewise, even the more generic wrestlers had a gimmick and moniker, if not their actual ring name, that told the fans all they needed to know about the guy.

Let me pull Royal Rumble 1991 out of a hat as my example because I've just been watching it. What was going on in this one, and who was involved?
The Rockers vs. The Orient Express w/Mr. Fuji
Rockers - exciting, colorful, dynamic, partying, sex appeal, young, hip...anyone hearing that team name knows that, without ever seeing Michaels and Jannetty.
Orient Express - foreign, taking glory away from America/us, exploiting us for their profit and fame; one guy has a mask, so he's hiding something; and that manager looks like a bad guy in a Bond movie!

Big Boss Man vs. Barbarian w/Bobby Heenan
Big Boss Man - law and order, trying to clean stuff up, respecting cops, big and powerful but benevolent.
Barbarian - any manager called the Brain can't be trusted; this guy looks like a savage, like he doesn't care about wins, just hurting guys.

Dusty and Dustin Rhodes vs. Ted DiBiase and Virgil
The American Dream versus The Million Dollar Man; one brings his son with him, the other his black man-servant; this is the ULTIMATE (<--outside yelling voice) example of perfect booking for the casual fan. Who in their right mind wouldn't know EXACTLY (<--inside) who to root for and WHY (<--outside).

...and so on and so forth. Earthquake and Tugboat tell me that two guys are going to be huge. And Anvils and Hammers and Hacksaws are big and tough. And a Nasty Boy is a mean jerk. Macho King? Prick is more like it! "The Model"? Arrogant jerk, more likely. Animal, Hawk, Bulldog, Smash, Crush: strong, tenacious brawlers, I'm sure. Hitman and Perfect? They must be all about the basics, but the second guy is pretty pompous about it! And then, all their looks went right with those easily definable characteristics!

...

So now, explain to me how WWE as structured today is accessible to the new or casual fan. How is it simple enough for a kid to follow, but intelligent enough to keep an adult's interest? How can a new fan be expected to keep track of John Morrison, Dolph Ziggler, John Cena, Ted DiBiase, Cody Rhodes, Randy Orton, Evan Bourne, Mark Henry, Charlie Haas, Matt Hardy, and Mike Knox.

It's not an issue of the talent. The issue is that all of these individuals are characters without gimmicks, or at best with a gimmick that isn't put into a couple words to get over the individual outside of his current push.

What are some positives they have? MVP; The Gold Standard; a guy named Swagger; giants with Big and Great in their names; a British guy whose last name means kingly. They don't need to have 1980s gimmicks. But they need to do better than writing these guys like characters on a TV show. Because if you miss a crucial episode of your favorite TV show, you can catch it and all the others in sequence in reruns in a couple months, and then buy it on DVD a few months later. In wrestling, miss a little, miss a lot.

So WWE can do some things good right now. But they do enough poorly to make consuming their product a frustrating experience for long-time fans who want not to be insulted. Insulted with decidedly un-hell-like HiaC matches; insulted with a personal conflict turning into an Iron Man match; insulted with a "loser leaves the brand" match on the same PPV as the Brand Superiority match; etc.

And that last one really bothers me now that I think about it. Even kayfabe Orton and Triple H wouldn't deny how big of a star Cena is, even if they hate him or think he sucks. So why would anyone on Raw be the least bit excited about brand loyalty when another match on the card has a stip that one of the big guys, a guy who draws crowds and increases their paydays, might have to leave them in the lurch if he loses. See?

If you're a turn-the-brain-off-for-wrestling person, fine, I respect that. It's cathartic release not meant to be taken seriously, like a big-budget action movie or a gross-out comedy. But at the same time, there are lots of us who enjoy wrestling as potentially the perfect combination of professional sports and theater: it doesn't matter who wins, as long as we leave entertained and the right guy wins in the long run. It's the latter group who is frustrated.

We don't WANT to be mad at the product. We don't WANT to skip WWE. We don't want to be complainers. But somebody has to voice concerns. And sometimes, we do our best to bring up worthwhile analogies and suggestions of what could be done better. At least I try to do that. I don't know.

I'll watch Smackdown. I'll enjoy the wrestling, I hope, and pray that the non-wrestling is worth viewing. I don't read spoilers, so I'll be surprised either positively or negatively. Who knows? But I don't see much to be excited about for Bragging Rights. The Four-Way WHC match could be okay, but only 2 of the 4 guys can really wrestle right now. And Miz-Morrison looks really promising, but I have a nagging feeling that WWE will screw this up somehow...I've been burned a lot of times.

[Hanzo]

Oct 21, 2009 21:31:55 GMT -5 Andrew is Good said:

Not caring is why ECW's ratings are in the s***ter. Think about this. Back when the new ECW started, they were pulling 2.5 ratings. Now, they can barely get to 1.3. Actually, that's a good week now.

Dude, who the heck cares about the ratings? (Well, fan-wise, I mean.) If people don't want to watch an hour of awesome wrestling, that's their loss.

Oct 21, 2009 21:31:55 GMT -5 Andrew is Good said:

Now, not saying the ECW product is bad, but there's no real reason to watch it.

For me personally, I can think of several reasons:

1. Christian

2. William Regal

3. Zack Ryder (Clap It Up!)

4. Goldust

5. Yoshi Tatsu

6. The Hurricane

7,8,9,10: Shelton Benjamin, Sheamus, Tommy Dreamer, Paul Burchill

Oct 21, 2009 21:31:55 GMT -5 Andrew is Good said:

It's not can't miss tv.

That's like...your opinion, man.


Yeah, I know I've been praising ECW non-stop lately. But it's either praise ECW or bash Raw into oblivion. And out of those two, I'd rather give the Tuesday night boys and girls their props.

And the reason why the Bragging Rights tag match doesn't hold my interest is because those two teams are comprised of a bunch of fat failure turtles and Kane. Kane's always been awesome, but he can't do everything.

Team ECW FTW.

[Slingshot Suplay]

My only complaints about the 7 on 7 match (besides being too close to Survivor Series) was Smackdown's representatives. I know it's reported that Trips is high on McEntyre, and that they want to do something to establish Escobar with Vickie, but those two should not be on a ppv when the Hart Dynasty hasn't even made their first ppv appearance. I'd accept Shemus on a PPV before those 2 nobodys.

[Lancers]

Oct 21, 2009 21:06:33 GMT -5 Dean-o said:

Maybe if they had, I don't know, more then 3 (!!!) weeks to build this $40 wallet rape, I would care.

There's nothing funny about wallet rape.