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Post by maxx420 on Dec 25, 2006 21:35:17 GMT -5
I read about this in PWI (or a sister publication) a few years ago. Usually the mags are all kayfabed, so when they include a tidbit like this it's truthful. There were other factors too, though. Paul Heyman, who felt betrayed by Awesome when Mike left for WCW (because Awesome was owed alot of money by ECW), was working in WWF/E at that point & was tight with Vince. PRO WRESTLING ILLUSTRATED?!?!? Laughable, and if my memory serves me correct, a publication ran by jealous bastards because the Internet has provided a forum for the insider fans to not have to wait three months for all the "leaked info" that these publications had. And if my memory serves me correct again, I remember reading in one of the oh so respected magazines that Heyman actually PUSHED for Awesome, knowing that it would be good business despite what had happened a little over a year earlier. The Undertaker thing is something I've heard many other times as well. Doubt it if you wish. The Heyman thing was part rumor, part theory on my part.
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"IcePic" Rick Cobos
Don Corleone
www.ericbischoff.com - some great comedy material!!!
Posts: 2,002
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Post by "IcePic" Rick Cobos on Dec 25, 2006 21:41:43 GMT -5
I've read and heard many stories about Undertaker holding guys back.
Here's the deal with him:
There was a time in which I fell into the anti-Taker cancer crap as well. Thankfully, once I got away from relying on the Official Workrate Fetish Group (led by Scott Keith) and went to guys who actually DO get insider news (Meltzer and Scherer to be specific), I realized just how much Undertaker has given to the business.
Before I share what Undertaker has done, I will admit that I DO wish he would demand to work with guys who are actually extremely talented in the ring. I also DO wish that he would not allow himself to be in so many wrestlecrap-defining angles (the Dudleyz feud for example). However, to not give him credit for trying to make something out of the likes of Yokozuna, Giant Gonzalez, Kama Mustafa, Kamala, Mark Henry, Khali, and many others, and for his willingness to at least build up the younger guys (btw, Taker winning a feud over a young gun does not equal burial) is a display of ignorance and blind dislike just because he isn't the most exciting wrestler in the world.
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 25, 2006 21:44:26 GMT -5
Taker is INSANELY protective of his spot, from what I've heard. And a guy like Awesome, with all his talent and ability is only going to aggravate that jealousy further.
I also tend to think that Vince dropped the ball on Jerry Lynn, too. He'd have been another great candidate for taking the WWECW strap off of Van Dam had Vince not soured that relationship as well.
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Post by maxx420 on Dec 26, 2006 11:50:05 GMT -5
Taker is INSANELY protective of his spot, from what I've heard. And a guy like Awesome, with all his talent and ability is only going to aggravate that jealousy further. I also tend to think that Vince dropped the ball on Jerry Lynn, too. He'd have been another great candidate for taking the WWECW strap off of Van Dam had Vince not soured that relationship as well. Damn right. I couldn't believe that Lynn was stuck on Metal & Heat during the InVasion angle, on the WWF side of things too. They REALLY could have played upon him sticking with the WWF despite his past with ECW... instead he was wasted. Why not have him reignite his feud with RVD during that period? And in response to Supersonic; don't misunderstand me. I do realize that 'Taker deserves alot of credit for at least trying to get some guys over.
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4real
Wade Wilson
Posts: 27,837
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Post by 4real on Dec 26, 2006 11:53:21 GMT -5
Right To Censor. If they had just gotten that big name that they needed they might just have survived for longer.
They pretty much died when they stopped recruiting members for no apparent reason.
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Post by maxx420 on Dec 26, 2006 11:59:18 GMT -5
Right To Censor. If they had just gotten that big name that they needed they might just have survived for longer. They pretty much died when they stopped recruiting members for no apparent reason. The whole thing with The Kat was damn confusing too. Remember when King left over that storyline? That just messed up the whole thing. But they seemed like such a mis-matched group to begin with. Stevie Richards, Bull Buchanan & The Go(o)dfather? Whenever they got Ivory on board Bull & Goodfather receded even further into the background. Then came InVasion & RTC vanished as the entire WWF (bar X-Pac) turned babyface.
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Post by Sawylent White on Dec 26, 2006 12:12:57 GMT -5
1) Raven - it hurt that they changed his look in WWF/E...among other things. 2) Nation of Domination -- yes, they spawned Rocky's push, but had they been as "militant" as LAX, they would have been much more appealing as a stable. 3) Hassan - they screwed it up with the "terrorist" angle. That "victim of 9/11" gimmick was a thing of beauty, and if they wanted to do the terrorist thing anyway, they blew the load way too quickly. 4) Sean O'Haire -- the guy's promos were gold. 5) "Black Heart" Owen Hart -- back when DX "screwed" Bret. This could have been WWF's answer to "Crow" Sting. 6) Heel Orton -- yes, he's heel now, but wasn't he a much better heel when he was with Evolution/feuding with Foley and Benoit. They turned him face way too soon, and now he's forgotten what made him a good heel to begin with. 7) Invasion angle....yeah, don't need to explain that one. 8) Hardys Split -- this should have been the "Rockers break-up" of our time. Too bad Jeff got tired of the business for a while. 9) Matt Hardy, V1 -- cleverly made gimmick, cut short once they moved him to RAW and made him more generic. 10) HHH & Austin (2 man power trip) -- was hoping they'd turn on Vince and make his life a living hell (as sadistic heels with Vince turning face). Too bad H tore his quad. I agree with all of these. I'm sure there's a ton more I'm just not thinking of right now, but there's two that sticks out in my mind right now. I always felt like they should have had a Mean Street Posse tag title run, having Shane help them win and defend the titles. Also the Kaientai "Indeed/Evil" gimmick was hillarious, but I always felt like they should have played it up more/longer, possibly having a heel run with the tag titles while relying slightly less on the comedic value of the gimmick and more on the fact that they were both actually really good in the ring DESPITE being so goofy in their evil-ness.
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4real
Wade Wilson
Posts: 27,837
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Post by 4real on Dec 26, 2006 12:14:39 GMT -5
I never understood why they didn't push Val as a main event star when he was in RTC. If they weren't gonna get Benoit or Taker or Austin, they could have at least tried to push Val as their star.
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Post by maxx420 on Dec 26, 2006 12:25:20 GMT -5
I never understood why they didn't push Val as a main event star when he was in RTC. If they weren't gonna get Benoit or Taker or Austin, they could have at least tried to push Val as their star. He seemed to be their "go to guy" as far as singles matches were concerned. But, for some reason, WWE are blind to Val's abilities, that's why he was jerked all over the place fr about 3 years. Val Venis: Pornstar to Val Venis: Right to Censor member to Val Venis: Pornstar, again to The Big Valbowski (why change his name?) to Val Venis: Pornstar, yet again to Chief Morley to Val Venis: Pornstar a-bloody-gain! All these switches hampered Val's momentum somewhat. Hard to believe he's a former two-time IC champion as well as a former tag-team champion (with Lance Storm).
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 26, 2006 13:33:54 GMT -5
Ok...someone explain THIS to me:
I know the guy is a BONA FIDE LEGEND and all.....but why the HELL did Curt Hennig never get past midcard in the WWF? Why was Vince never more behind Mr. Perfect? He could have been an AWESOME heel WWF Champ.
Any ideas as to why Mr. Perfect was never pushed further?
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Post by maxx420 on Dec 26, 2006 13:36:49 GMT -5
Ok...someone explain THIS to me: I know the guy is a BONA FIDE LEGEND and all.....but why the HELL did Curt Hennig never get past midcard in the WWF? Why was Vince never more behind Mr. Perfect? He could have been an AWESOME heel WWF Champ. Any ideas as to why Mr. Perfect was never pushed further? I know that during his return in 2002, Hennig was really hampered by injuries sustained through out his career. But during his initial run, well, Hogan was THE star. No one else really had much of a chance of getting over back then.
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 26, 2006 13:52:48 GMT -5
Yeah...and no WAY was Hogan going to work with a Hennig or a Hart that could possibly expose him to the world for the poor worker he is.
But when Hogan left to do movies, Hennig had the (No pun intended) PERFECT chance to shine, and even had some great IC battles with Bret Hart. So why the lack of confidence?
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Post by skskillz on Dec 26, 2006 14:05:20 GMT -5
Yeah...and no WAY was Hogan going to work with a Hennig or a Hart that could possibly expose him to the world for the poor worker he is. Hogan worked with Hennig a number of times, both on TV and house shows. They also worked a mini angle in late-1989 involving Perfect crushing the world title with a hammer. That feud helped Perfect a lot. It legitimized him to the fans and later he went on to become one of the best IC champions ever. Hogan left in 1992. Perfect began wrestling again in late-1992, but after retiring Flair (in kayfabe) in went on to lose a feud with Luger (WM IX), lose a KOTR match against Bret, and have a disappointing IC title run with Shawn Michaels. In other words, they didn't want him at the top of the card. Ever. Whether Hogan was on top or Bret was on top. By 1993, the WWF was going head-on with the "New Generation", and nearly every established name from the '80's was being phased out. Perfect was one of them. He was phased out (along with Savage, Dibiase, etc) to make room for Bret, Taker, Yokozuna, Michaels, Diesel, Razor, etc.
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Post by Danimal on Dec 26, 2006 14:28:26 GMT -5
I remember the Taker/Awesome stuff as-well. Taker has done plenty for the business but he is also a guy with plenty of backstage power that he will use on occasion to get what he wants. Awesome was about the same size as Take but significantly more athletic. Meh hosses aren't really a threat to Taker and he knows it, of course he'll work with them. Awesome was a threat so Taker took action.
Power tends to corrupt and be abused. It is an unfortunate fact of life. You can see it anywhere. Just the other day a friend was telling me about being kept out of his own house and from seeing his kids by his wife's brothers, who are cops. They weren't upholding justice just using their clout to play bully.
Taker, like most of us, is a mixed-bag. Capable of good and bad. It would be dumb to gloss-over all Taker has done for wrestling but just-because he has done so much doen't mean he he hasn't used his backstage-pull on occasion to get what he wants.
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Post by Rorschach on Dec 27, 2006 3:35:44 GMT -5
Yeah...and no WAY was Hogan going to work with a Hennig or a Hart that could possibly expose him to the world for the poor worker he is. Hogan worked with Hennig a number of times, both on TV and house shows. They also worked a mini angle in late-1989 involving Perfect crushing the world title with a hammer. That feud helped Perfect a lot. It legitimized him to the fans and later he went on to become one of the best IC champions ever. Hogan left in 1992. Perfect began wrestling again in late-1992, but after retiring Flair (in kayfabe) in went on to lose a feud with Luger (WM IX), lose a KOTR match against Bret, and have a disappointing IC title run with Shawn Michaels. In other words, they didn't want him at the top of the card. Ever. Whether Hogan was on top or Bret was on top. By 1993, the WWF was going head-on with the "New Generation", and nearly every established name from the '80's was being phased out. Perfect was one of them. He was phased out (along with Savage, Dibiase, etc) to make room for Bret, Taker, Yokozuna, Michaels, Diesel, Razor, etc. GOD that sucks. Man, how the hell did I miss the Hennig/Hogan stuff? I used to watch WWF all the damn time back then, with my Grandpa. I just never remember them wrestling each other in a full match. I remember Perfect smashing the title......but I thought that was done more for Andre/Heenan/Savage or somesuch than for Perfect himself. Regardless.....Curt Hennig deserved a WWF Title run.
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HRH The KING
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
HIS ROYAL HIGHNESS
Posts: 15,079
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Post by HRH The KING on Dec 27, 2006 3:54:33 GMT -5
Oddly, I'm glad that Perfect never was a main-eventer in 1989-1992
Because it would have meant endless jobbing to Hogan.
As IC champion, he made that division very strong.
That was of course back when all the titles in the WWE meant something
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EvilMasterBetty, Esq.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bird...Birdie...birdie......Tiger...Tiger Tiger.....
R2C2 Reporting for duty
Posts: 17,355
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Post by EvilMasterBetty, Esq. on Dec 27, 2006 4:15:25 GMT -5
Also, think about this with Awesome. He's retired. The Undertaker's still wrestling. Maybe Taker was being protective, but who's still able to wrestle. Even if they pushed Awesome, they only had maybe 2-3 years tops, and of that maybe one good year, before his knees gave out under the WWE schedule, especially if he was at the top. I know that Awesome, is well, awesome, but blame WCW for him not getting his push when his time came, not WWE. He was already on the decline when that happened.
Some I can think of off the top of my head...
1 - Chief Morley - Val Venis doesn't have much depth to it. However, this one did. Not only was he the muscle to the boss, but he was a damn good wrestler to boot. He could have become the big road block to whoever the face was going for the belt, or be the guy to get the belt of the face. But all of a sudden *poof* he's gone.
2 - Ultimate Warrior - Now hear me out. Warrior was insanely over in his prime. Hell, it was damn near impossible to steal any thunder from Hogan in the 80's, let alone turn half of the Toronto crowd against Hogan at Wrestlemania. Not only that, he showed that, with the right preparation and the right opponents, he could put on some pretty good matches, at least better than Hogan's. However, WWE/F forsight being what it is/was, they forgot to build a heel up to challenge Warrior. Their best bet was Rick Rude who, no offense to his incredible talent and charisma, only got a title shot because he beat Warrior once thanks to help from Heenan. That's not a lot to build up a heel challenger. If they had planned it better, Warrior could have gotten them going for a couple more years, at least until the steroid thing broke.
3 - Rick Rude - He could have been a great heel champ. Just never got the right build up to be it.
4 - Razor Ramon - Could have been WWF Champion. Too bad his habits wouldn't allow it.
5 - 123 Kid - Man, that upset was huge to me. That's still the first Raw I remember and they could have really built off of that more. Waltman had a ton of talent and a great underdog look. He could have been a great story to build around to maybe a very quick title run, like maybe 2 months tops, which would have been short at the time.
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Boku AKA Da Green Guy
El Dandy
WC's Resident Pirate Otaku and Official Scapegoat
Always and Forever, Hurricane.
Posts: 8,371
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Post by Boku AKA Da Green Guy on Dec 27, 2006 4:39:34 GMT -5
"Pirate" Paul Burchill: It had a load of possible storylines and a chance to get a great talent over. But then I was a huge fan of it, so go figure.
"The Cat" Ernest Miller's James Brown Gimmick in the WWE: I thought that the gimmick was interesting and I loved the theme. I really thought it could have gone somewhere. Oh, and RIP James.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Dec 27, 2006 4:49:04 GMT -5
Wasn't the reason O'haires advocate gimmick was dropped because he was having problems delivering them live?
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EvilMasterBetty, Esq.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bird...Birdie...birdie......Tiger...Tiger Tiger.....
R2C2 Reporting for duty
Posts: 17,355
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Post by EvilMasterBetty, Esq. on Dec 27, 2006 5:03:41 GMT -5
Wasn't the reason O'haires advocate gimmick was dropped because he was having problems delivering them live? Not sure on that (although it wouldn't surprise me). But to (un)creative his gimmick was attached at the hip to Piper. So when Piper left, apparently they had no f***ing clue what to do with him, although there had to be plans in place before piper left that could have been tweeked.
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