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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 3, 2009 1:26:59 GMT -5
And, last but not least, let's not ignore the adults who actually not only enjoy the thing, but LOVE it to near obsession. I've actually asked them "So, you don't mind the image of a helpless/hapless female lead who falls for a borderline-abusive boyfriend and can't live without him, you don't mind the flat-out poor quality of the writing", etc., and many of them actually own up to the writing being poor, the story being awful, the characters being wooden, etc., yet say "be nice, it's to me what Star Wars is to guys." To which I usually say "Yeah, but Star Wars actually carried positive messages of growth and accepting responsibilities, and was steeped in the storytelling traditions as discussed in the works of Joseph Campbell...yet 99% of the world will completely own up to the fact that the prequels were poorly written and sucked ass, and thus not like them." What Star Wars is to guys? I guess they just ignore the massive cultural impact Star Wars had on everyone. It's the biggest movie franchise of all time, Star Wars was for everyone. How the hell can someone compare Twilight to Star Wars? Also ignore that Star Wars was huge for both genders? Like you said Star Wars carried positive messages of growth and accepting responsibility. It also carried the message that someone can be redeemed. Star Wars is still popular over 30 years after the first movie was released. Twilight hasn't even been around for a decade. Star Wars has engaging interesting characters, Luke, Darth Vader, Han, Chewie, Yoda, Leia, Obi-Wan, R2 and 3PO. Twilight not so much. Star Wars has a legit kick ass female in Leia. It's ridiculous for those people to compare Twilight to something that had the huge impact Star Wars has. And to ignore the fact that Star Wars is loved by both genders and all generations. I'll be fair to a certain degree: Star Wars, while carrying a huge cultural impact and other honors, could still be looked at as little more than a fun escapist piece of pop art. Also, whether or not you find the characters engaging is up to opinion, not fact. Now, I think that would be a narrow way of viewing it, but while Star Wars drew from some very heavy influences and what have you, it was, at heart, originally meant to be a fun popcorn flick that hearkened back to the days of 50's sci fi serials. Still, what made Star Wars last was the fact that it drew on universal messages and appeal. The messages of growth, temptation, redemption, internal struggles, and the archetype of the hero's journey are all things that massive amounts of people can identify with, and have for generations. Star Wars took those messages and ideas, played around with them a bit, and executed them well. Again, though, you could still choose to view Star Wars as simple escapism. And that's fine! There's nothing wrong with that point of view, narrow though it may seem. And there's nothing wrong with liking something that's silly, that's simple, that's not meant to be grand art. I like cheesy movies as much as anybody else. But I agree that Twilight is different; it doesn't utilize effective storytelling, it doesn't attempt to appeal to people at a strong, foundational level, and it doesn't execute much of anything well, at least of what I've read and what I've learned about it since. Rather, it comes off as a barrage of catchy images meant to get somebody's attention: "brooding loner!", "clumsy girl next door who's also beautiful and perfect!", "vampires!", "sexual tension!"...these aren't storytelling themes and archetypes, they're just buzzwords. And, often, people fall for buzzwords. But my larger point was this: many adult recognize the ENORMOUS flaws of Twilight, yet get engrossed in it like children who don't know any better. Meanwhile, Star Wars fans, even the most ardent, were given a poor product in the prequel trilogy; poorly written, lacking the strong human messages and themes found in the original, chock full of wooden characters and poor acting/direction, etc. Did Star Wars fans react with squeals of delight and by hanging up posters of the prequel movies in their rooms, ala Twilight fans? Not many that I've seen. In fact, most Star Wars fans have little but disappointment over the prequels, due to their poor execution. So, we agree in principle: comparing Twilight to Star Wars is very weak. However, let's also look at all things fairly.
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Triple Kelly
Vegeta
Not once, twice, but three times a Kelly
Posts: 9,470
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Post by Triple Kelly on Nov 3, 2009 1:30:20 GMT -5
One of the most cringe-worthy moments of my life is going to DragonCon in September of this year and seeing an ADULT fat black chick wearing a "Team Edward" t-shirt. Facepalm...mixed with laughter picturing the MAD-TV sketch that would make.
There was also a huge programming track for Twilight and adverts for some special "Twilight Con" were all over the place. Double facepalm. It made me ashamed of my species.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Nov 3, 2009 1:31:03 GMT -5
I heard she's gonna write the same story from another characters perspective. Am I alone in thinking when you do that you're saying "I'm a total hack and only have one story in me"? If she does this, I REALLY hope it is from Edward's view so she can show everyone just how perverted and how big of a stalker he is. I mean just from the story from Bella's view we can tell he is NOT boyfriend material and in real life would be in jail in a heartbeat.
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Post by Rorschach on Nov 3, 2009 1:32:12 GMT -5
One of the most cringe-worthy moments of my life is going to DragonCon in September of this year and seeing an ADULT fat black chick wearing a "Team Edward" t-shirt. Facepalm...mixed with laughter picturing the MAD-TV sketch that would make. There was also a huge programming track for Twilight and adverts for some special "Twilight Con" were all over the place. Double facepalm. It made me ashamed of my species. The only Twilight I endorse is Jefferson Twilight: Blacula hunter.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Nov 3, 2009 1:33:26 GMT -5
That's the other thing that got me about the wolf transformation from the few seconds I saw-- it seemed to happen in an instant, if that's the case it doesn't make any sense in any way you think that kinda metamorphosis would 'in real life' or even in ANY werewolf movie ever Dude, this is the same damn series that has David Bowiepires.... I think it is clear all previous story telling methods for these creatures have been thrown out the window.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 3, 2009 1:39:42 GMT -5
I heard she's gonna write the same story from another characters perspective. Am I alone in thinking when you do that you're saying "I'm a total hack and only have one story in me"? If she does this, I REALLY hope it is from Edward's view so she can show everyone just how perverted and how big of a stalker he is. I mean just from the story from Bella's view we can tell he is NOT boyfriend material and in real life would be in jail in a heartbeat. Somebody on the boards here had a great idea awhile back; the series could ALMOST be forgiven if it turned out that, without her realizing it, he had made the girl into his ghoul, ala Dracula and Renfield. It would explain her sick, demented obsession with a guy she meets one minute and is in love with the next (and her apparent devotion to him despite his ridiculously awful treatment of her), and would turn him into a true villain for manipulating an innocent girl like that.
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Post by Rorschach on Nov 3, 2009 1:40:07 GMT -5
That's the other thing that got me about the wolf transformation from the few seconds I saw-- it seemed to happen in an instant, if that's the case it doesn't make any sense in any way you think that kinda metamorphosis would 'in real life' or even in ANY werewolf movie ever Dude, this is the same damn series that has David Bowiepires.... I think it is clear all previous story telling methods for these creatures have been thrown out the window. A friend told me that according to the books and all...they're more like shapeshifters than real, honest to God werewolves anyway. So almost like Sam Merlot from TRUE BLOOD moreso than Lon Chaney from the WOLFMAN.
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mcmahonfan85
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 24,085
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Nov 3, 2009 1:40:57 GMT -5
LOL at emo vampires being compared to Star Wars. Star Wars is part of life. Twilight is a fad that will be hanging with Beanie Babies and the Macerana any minute now. Star Wars is a part of life if you're a huge nerd. i like the movies (and even the prequals) but they are far from being a part of life. they're movies.
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Post by The Charismatic Enabeler on Nov 3, 2009 1:43:47 GMT -5
LOL at emo vampires being compared to Star Wars. Star Wars is part of life. Twilight is a fad that will be hanging with Beanie Babies and the Macerana any minute now. Star Wars is a part of life if you're a huge nerd. i like the movies (and even the prequals) but they are far from being a part of life. they're movies. Pfft. Nonsense. Your grandmother knows who Darth Vader is.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Nov 3, 2009 1:44:56 GMT -5
Dude, this is the same damn series that has David Bowiepires.... I think it is clear all previous story telling methods for these creatures have been thrown out the window. A friend told me that according to the books and all...they're more like shapeshifters than real, honest to God werewolves anyway. So almost like Sam Merlot from TRUE BLOOD moreso than Lon Chaney from the WOLFMAN. Werewolves are shapeshifters. If you go from a human to an animal form, you are a were-whatever you turn into. Interesting fact, the were-creature most prominent in an area is the dominant predatory creature there. In America and Europe, it is the Werewolf(and Werebear in parts of America), India has Weretigers, Africa has Werelions, Werecheetahs, Wereleopards, Werecrocodiles, China has Werebears, etc. Just a side note.
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Post by Chuckie Finster on Nov 3, 2009 1:54:57 GMT -5
As far as the Star Wars argument goes, Star Wars in itself is essentially a Greek Tragedy. I see no way that as far as storytelling, characters or plot go that Twilight has any roots in classical storytelling. The only thing it falls under is "fanfiction".
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Nov 3, 2009 2:11:02 GMT -5
As far as the Star Wars argument goes, Star Wars in itself is essentially a Greek Tragedy. I see no way that as far as storytelling, characters or plot go that Twilight has any roots in classical storytelling. The only thing it falls under is "fanfiction". More specifically, under the "Bad fanfiction that was basically just created so the creator can live their fantasy."
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Post by Rorschach on Nov 3, 2009 2:17:41 GMT -5
A friend told me that according to the books and all...they're more like shapeshifters than real, honest to God werewolves anyway. So almost like Sam Merlot from TRUE BLOOD moreso than Lon Chaney from the WOLFMAN. Werewolves are shapeshifters. If you go from a human to an animal form, you are a were-whatever you turn into. Interesting fact, the were-creature most prominent in an area is the dominant predatory creature there. In America and Europe, it is the Werewolf(and Werebear in parts of America), India has Weretigers, Africa has Werelions, Werecheetahs, Wereleopards, Werecrocodiles, China has Werebears, etc. Just a side note. So the Venture Bros. episode about the Were-o-diles wasn't full of crap? Wow. Did not know that. However...I thought the difference was that shifters can be ANYTHING...whereas were-creatures are limited to that one form?
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Nov 3, 2009 2:19:09 GMT -5
Werewolves are shapeshifters. If you go from a human to an animal form, you are a were-whatever you turn into. Interesting fact, the were-creature most prominent in an area is the dominant predatory creature there. In America and Europe, it is the Werewolf(and Werebear in parts of America), India has Weretigers, Africa has Werelions, Werecheetahs, Wereleopards, Werecrocodiles, China has Werebears, etc. Just a side note. So the Venture Bros. episode about the Were-o-diles wasn't full of crap? Wow. Did not know that. However...I thought the difference was that shifters can be ANYTHING...whereas were-creatures are limited to that one form? Shifters could be anything, if they had that ability. Lycanthropy is a form of shapeshifting.
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Post by Cry Me a Wiggle on Nov 3, 2009 2:21:06 GMT -5
In fact, most Star Wars fans have little but disappointment over the prequels, due to their poor execution. So, we agree in principle: comparing Twilight to Star Wars is very weak. However, let's also look at all things fairly. I've met a few Star Wars prequel fans who will defend the prequels so passionately, they'll disparage the original films in order to do so. That's like me saying Revolution 9 was a bigger achievement than that piece of trash Strawberry Fields Forever, but I digress. Twilight really bugs me. I don't mind pop trash, but when it takes on this level of cultural relevance, it really begins to get under the skin. Maybe it's the writer in me. There are so many brilliant ideas out there that aren't gaining traction. Meanwhile, Meyer is the hackiest hack who's ever hacked and has effectively hoodwinked an entire generation (and more) into giving her more money than God. And the movies! God! Robert Pattinson and Kristin Stewart really need to bathe at least once this year, because I can practically smell their ashy body aroma from here.
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Post by Rorschach on Nov 3, 2009 2:30:25 GMT -5
So the Venture Bros. episode about the Were-o-diles wasn't full of crap? Wow. Did not know that. However...I thought the difference was that shifters can be ANYTHING...whereas were-creatures are limited to that one form? Shifters could be anything, if they had that ability. Lycanthropy is a form of shapeshifting. A funny note on that: The History Channel just did a special on Werewolves recently, and their computer animation of the bone shifting that would need to take place for a man to change to a canine form...was astonishing, to say the least. AMERICAN WEREWOLF IN LONDON seems to have gotten the process more right than anything in recent memory, according to the animations from History Channel. Needless to say, it would NOT be a seamless, painless process as shown in the NEW MOON trailers.
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Post by Kroot bringing Justice on Nov 3, 2009 2:45:29 GMT -5
Shifters could be anything, if they had that ability. Lycanthropy is a form of shapeshifting. A funny note on that: The History Channel just did a special on Werewolves recently, and their computer animation of the bone shifting that would need to take place for a man to change to a canine form...was astonishing, to say the least. AMERICAN WEREWOLF IN LONDON seems to have gotten the process more right than anything in recent memory, according to the animations from History Channel. Needless to say, it would NOT be a seamless, painless process as shown in the NEW MOON trailers. Being Human goes through a great amount of thought in showing just how painful the transformation really is.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 3, 2009 2:49:35 GMT -5
As far as the Star Wars argument goes, Star Wars in itself is essentially a Greek Tragedy. I see no way that as far as storytelling, characters or plot go that Twilight has any roots in classical storytelling. The only thing it falls under is "fanfiction". Well, it COULD have attempted the whole classical "Romeo and Juliet" angle of a doomed romance, but Meyer couldn't do that, because in her fangirl fantasy the vampire and the girl had to wind up together forever, even if it meant manipulating every other event and character in illogical and grossly uninteresting ways to get it done. But I agree; like I said before, the story doesn't come off as any form of coherent storytelling, it comes off as buzzwords meant to get attention and to stir up fantasies in the reader.
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Post by Rorschach on Nov 3, 2009 2:54:29 GMT -5
As far as the Star Wars argument goes, Star Wars in itself is essentially a Greek Tragedy. I see no way that as far as storytelling, characters or plot go that Twilight has any roots in classical storytelling. The only thing it falls under is "fanfiction". Well, it COULD have attempted the whole classical "Romeo and Juliet" angle of a doomed romance, but Meyer couldn't do that, because in her fangirl fantasy the vampire and the girl had to wind up together forever, even if it meant manipulating every other event and character in illogical and grossly uninteresting ways to get it done. But I agree; like I said before, the story doesn't come off as any form of coherent storytelling, it comes off as buzzwords meant to get attention and to stir up fantasies in the reader. Supposedly, her non TWILIGHT book is much better. I, however, am not going to waste my time finding out. I'll just take my friend's word for it.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Nov 3, 2009 3:31:14 GMT -5
HMark, I'm right there with ya in the 'attempt at reading the book, so as not to shit on something I haven't even looked at thing'.. my lil sister urged me to give it a read, and since like eighty percent of the women I know currently rave about this thing, I thought, eh give it a shot.
I've struggled through the first hundred pages of this, every few pages thinking and sometimes even saying out loud-- This, this is terrible! Within the first few pages where every guy in this chicks school apparently has the hots for her even though it states she's pretty ordinary I was thinking, Wha? It's went from there.
I'm gonna finish it, as I said I would, but I don't look forward to it; nor the arguments I'm likely to get into when asked my opinion on it.
Unrelated sidenote, two hundred pages into a book I've been workin on awhile ( fingers crossed it'll someday be available... tis my dream); and while reading this I keep thinking.. shit I hope my stuff isn't this damned hackneyed and terrible.
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