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Post by tap on Jan 9, 2010 18:37:29 GMT -5
But that still doesn't explain how the Joker would know exactly when the escort vehicle would leave the underground highway, at what part of the highway, and how he knew to set up guys in the buildings, and where, just in case a helicopter shows up. It's one of those random acts of chance that works out perfectly for the Joker, like people not noticing explosives in a hospital or hundreds of barrels of gasoline on a ferry. I still can't help but go "oh come on" at how silly everything conveniently falls into place. Actually, since he forced them into the tunnels initially, all he had to do was cover the first available exit from said tunnels that wasn't covered by the semi or the dumptruck. Eh, that's seems to be really reaching still. How'd he know they'd call a helicopter? If you have to go that far outside the movie to figure out a plothole that wasn't shown visually or discussed in the narrative, then the filmmakers have failed in that part of their storytelling. It's a minor point in context of the whole film, granted, but it's like that Cracked article about overly complicated movies: had the Joker hit a red light or something, his entire scheme would have been foiled. www.cracked.com/article_16848_the-6-most-pointlessly-elaborate-movie-murder-plots_p2.html
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Post by mcmahonfan85 on Jan 9, 2010 18:58:53 GMT -5
Actually, since he forced them into the tunnels initially, all he had to do was cover the first available exit from said tunnels that wasn't covered by the semi or the dumptruck. Eh, that's seems to be really reaching still. How'd he know they'd call a helicopter? If you have to go that far outside the movie to figure out a plothole that wasn't shown visually or discussed in the narrative, then the filmmakers have failed in that part of their storytelling. It's a minor point in context of the whole film, granted, but it's like that Cracked article about overly complicated movies: had the Joker hit a red light or something, his entire scheme would have been foiled. www.cracked.com/article_16848_the-6-most-pointlessly-elaborate-movie-murder-plots_p2.htmlhow'd he know they were going to call in a helicopter? i don't maybe he knew because...they're the f*****g police? they have standered operating procedures, its not hard to figure out what they're going to do. and how the hell is a red light going to stop the Joker?! he'll murder as many people as he can just for fun, he'll blow up several buildings just to watch them go boom, but a red light makes him go "Hold it, stop the car. We can't break the law" and that Cracked article is retarded. as far as the Joker knew, Dent was Batman, so if he had hit the armored car with Dent in it and killed him, he'd have done his goal and killed Batman. then since the crazy guy already had the bomb sewn into him all the Joker would have to do was let himself be caught and then use his one phone call to set off the bomb and make his escape with. as for the makeshift road block, since the truck hadn't looked like it'd been burning there all day its pretty safe to say the set on fire shortly before the cops planned to move Dent (and before anyone goes "Well how did he know when/where they were going to move him", we already know there were dirty cops working for them). and for the "well what if there were cops in front of the buildings where Rachel and Dent were kept", he picked to deserted spots. he's got dirty cops working for him, so he can ask them where cops usually do and don't patrol, and that helps him pick perfect locations. oh and as for the debris hitting and killing Dent, he was trying to kill him. the movie isn't overly complicated, they're the ones making it overly complicated.
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Post by tap on Jan 9, 2010 19:48:45 GMT -5
how'd he know they were going to call in a helicopter? i don't maybe he knew because...they're the f*****g police? they have standered operating procedures, its not hard to figure out what they're going to do. But they could have also sent another SWAT vehicle or cruisers or... etc., etc. But to have people perfectly placed to attack a helicopter, somehow knowing they would send a helicopter, with the right tools to do so... it doesn't add up. And then the audacity of the Joker to say he enjoys chaos. Come on. He may as well be clairvoyant. The guy is the biggest hypocrite in the film and had he just said so, fine. He obviously doesn't believe in the things he espouses, but he's oblivious to his hypocrisy. Were he to say "yeah, I do one thing and say another," fine. And to chalk up this contradiction with "he's crazy!" doesn't hold because the Joker isn't even a character: he's a force of nature. It's like watching the giant tornado chasing Helen Hunt at the end of Twister. It's contrived. My point is that if one thing didn't go the way the Joker wanted it to, the entire 2 plus hours of the film would be for nothing. The film escalates to the point of absurdity, how NO ONE could notice that a hospital is full of explosives, or even ferries when some guy has THREATENED THE CITY ALREADY. Applying the same type of non-diegetic logic that people use to defend the plotholes, then people should have been checking public transportation to make sure there were no explosives aboard. But I don't make an issue of this really because... ... again, my point is: if it's not visually shown or narratively incorporated, it's a defense of the film that goes outside the film world to somehow justify the film world for existing. That doesn't make any sense. And it's more or less akin to bad storytelling. The Cracked article isn't the first thing to ask a lot of questions about how the internal world of Gotham works in The Dark Knight, so they aren't complicating it. Sure, I can suspend my disbelief, but the further the movie goes on, it gets harder and harder to as the dilemmas become sillier and sillier. And all this ignores the fact that in Batman Begins Gordon tells Batman about the Joker, and then in between the span of BB and TDK (which is about a year, year and a half perhaps) has done NOTHING whatsoever to apprehend the Joker, to the point that he only takes notice that the Joker even exists when the video of the Batman wannabe gets out (and this much is actually shown in the film). That's a plot failure as much as a visual failure, that the Joker is set up in BB and then our protagonist really couldn't be bothered to deal with him until a third of the way into the sequel. The flick itself is hardly complicated, but it sure as hell tries to overcomplicate things to somehow seem deep or relevant or dark, and I know for me it doesn't hold up. Less is more, but TDK is too much and is incredibly messy and, for me, still not very enjoyable because of it (I've warmed up to it since I first saw it, but it's still a very weak entry into the live action Batman catalogue).
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Dr. T is an alien
Patti Mayonnaise
Knows when to hold them, knows when to fold them
I've been found out!
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Jan 9, 2010 20:35:06 GMT -5
You know what? Any time something about the Joker fails to make sense, I revert to the established 4th wall knowledge that he has and say that he stole the screenplay to know these things. ;D
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Jan 9, 2010 22:05:36 GMT -5
And all this ignores the fact that in Batman Begins Gordon tells Batman about the Joker, and then in between the span of BB and TDK (which is about a year, year and a half perhaps) has done NOTHING whatsoever to apprehend the Joker, to the point that he only takes notice that the Joker even exists when the video of the Batman wannabe gets out (and this much is actually shown in the film). That's a plot failure as much as a visual failure, that the Joker is set up in BB and then our protagonist really couldn't be bothered to deal with him until a third of the way into the sequel. "Do you want one man or the whole mob?" "Some two-bit whack-job. Wears a cheap purple suit and make-up. He's not the problem. He's a nobody." "What would I do without you? Go back to ripping off mob dealers?" See the Joker is just a small time bank robber for the most part who happens to wear clown makeup. Until he decides to kill Batman one day, he's not worth botheriing with. There are bigger fish to fry. And for the record, TDK is set 6 months after BB.
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livetowin
Dennis Stamp
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Don't be negatin'!
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Post by livetowin on Jan 10, 2010 17:02:48 GMT -5
Remember, the mob had cops working for them. Maybe that's how it was so easy to formulate a plan. Or to not formulate a plan.
You know what i'm getting at.
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Post by G✇JI☈A on Jan 10, 2010 17:27:33 GMT -5
What about this one from Batman Begins:
There was a machine that vaporised water from about 20 feet away. And it is used in Gotham. But the Human body is mostly compised of water. So if this machine was turned on in a urban area it would be catastrophic because it would do more then just evaparate the water supply.
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Post by hypnoticgenes on Jan 10, 2010 17:28:09 GMT -5
I got a question. How was Joker able to rig and wire that much explosives in a crowded hospital with nobody noticing?
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Post by Alucard on Jan 10, 2010 17:34:26 GMT -5
I got a question. How was Joker able to rig and wire that much explosives in a crowded hospital with nobody noticing? Honestly, with the right sort of attire on, you'd be amazed at what you can get away with doing in a hospital. Wear a restaurant delivery uniform or courier service outfit, and nobody will bat an eye at you.
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
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Post by Chainsaw on Jan 10, 2010 19:24:41 GMT -5
I'm still of the mindset that Harvey's not dead, and will figure prominently in the 3rd movie. My guess is Gordon will commit him to Arkham in secret and keep him so full of Thorazine he won't remember his own name. Except he will.
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Post by millionurkle on Jan 10, 2010 20:11:03 GMT -5
Couldn't we just say the Joker is insane enough for 6 months to plan every single detail down to the final task. Also that alot of his plans didnt work but he would have a backup plan in case somethin didn't work.
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TheDieselTrain
Fry's dog Seymour
Chicks Dig Hootie.
Is Stone Cold gonna have to smack a bitch?? WHAT!!!?????
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Post by TheDieselTrain on Jan 11, 2010 19:36:43 GMT -5
I know she was in the dark so we couldnt see how tight she may have been bound but Why the hell didnt Rachel attempt to save herself instead of just talking to Harvey the whole time? Anyone hear the rumor that she's not dead and will return as catwoman and the explosion was just one of her lives gone?
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Jan 11, 2010 19:44:25 GMT -5
So the cops capture a dude they can't identify, and don't take off his make-up, then leave him without handcuffs? And why did Gordon uncuff him the first place?
That was really unbelievable to me.
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TheDieselTrain
Fry's dog Seymour
Chicks Dig Hootie.
Is Stone Cold gonna have to smack a bitch?? WHAT!!!?????
Posts: 23,724
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Post by TheDieselTrain on Jan 11, 2010 19:59:16 GMT -5
So the cops capture a dude they can't identify, and don't take off his make-up, then leave him without handcuffs? And why did Gordon uncuff him the first place? That was really unbelievable to me. Bats can teleport too No I know there was a backdoor but kinda hard to think that the joker wouldnt hear a door open for bats to enter. When the door gordon left was all creaky when he left the interrogation room. What about Gamble too. So Joker tells him his story and has the knife in his mouth and says why so serious and a second or two later he falls dead unless that was a poisioned knife. I wouldnt think a knife cutting your mouth would kill you.
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Yami Daimao
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Yami Daimao on Jan 11, 2010 20:17:56 GMT -5
No one ever answered the Joker's question: Why so serious?
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Post by Slingshot Suplay on Jan 11, 2010 20:29:46 GMT -5
Couldn't we just say the Joker is insane enough for 6 months to plan every single detail down to the final task. Also that alot of his plans didnt work but he would have a backup plan in case somethin didn't work. Only if his plans were written in crayon.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2010 21:27:07 GMT -5
Dunno if it's been pointed out, but Ramirez could very well have died from that hit with the pistol. You can do a lot more damage with those than people tend to think when not shooting someone with it.
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Post by tap on Jan 11, 2010 21:50:57 GMT -5
Couldn't we just say the Joker is insane enough for 6 months to plan every single detail down to the final task. Also that alot of his plans didnt work but he would have a backup plan in case somethin didn't work. Only if his plans were written in crayon.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Jan 11, 2010 22:16:15 GMT -5
So the cops capture a dude they can't identify, and don't take off his make-up, then leave him without handcuffs? And why did Gordon uncuff him the first place? That was really unbelievable to me. I refer you to James Gordon: "Nobody touch him! I don't want anything for his mob lawyer to use." Though the fact they left him in a room for Batman to beat the snot out of him kinda goes against this.
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Jan 11, 2010 22:29:43 GMT -5
So the cops capture a dude they can't identify, and don't take off his make-up, then leave him without handcuffs? And why did Gordon uncuff him the first place? That was really unbelievable to me. Bats can teleport too No I know there was a backdoor but kinda hard to think that the joker wouldnt hear a door open for bats to enter. When the door gordon left was all creaky when he left the interrogation room. What about Gamble too. So Joker tells him his story and has the knife in his mouth and says why so serious and a second or two later he falls dead unless that was a poisioned knife. I wouldnt think a knife cutting your mouth would kill you. There are enough blood vessels in the face that it's believable for someone to bleed out from a cut like that.
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