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Post by Robbymac on Oct 29, 2009 22:27:23 GMT -5
First and better you say? I do. Vince is a terrible actor, with facial expressions that make Awesome Kong look subtle. I am aware WWE revisionist history claims that WCW made it to the top by 'stealing' WWF talent, but they never mention that WWF turned things around by stealing WCW material like their own ripoff of the nWo and their own heel authority figure. My favorite thing Bischoff ever said was that it's called 'the attitude era' because the victors write the history books and what WWF did was "Nitro-ize" their product. To paraphrase Easy E "Look all of a sudden Hunter Hearst Helmsley the blue blood is wearing jeans and a leather jacket? They're spraypainting things now?" First of all "Mr. McMahon" may be the most over heel character in wrestling history. So while he may be a horrible actor what he did worked. The poster you quoted posted a video from either 1993 or 1994 in which Vince is in Memphis doing an OBVIOUS early prototype of the Mr. McMahon character. Its clear that Vince already had the heel promoter character in his brain, and what he wanted to do with it years prior to Bischoff turning heel in WCW. I don't think Bischoff ripped off his heel turn from this incarnation of Vince (he probably didn't even know about it) but Vince certainly had his character in mind. Besides the nWo version of Bischoff and the Mr. McMahon characters while both heels were completely different. Bischoff played a kiss ass who wanted to suck up to his buddies in the nWo. In a way it was an extension of his actual personality. McMahon played a totalitarian dictator like character willing to do anything to get what he wanted. Again an extension of his actual self. When he had a faction they were hired mercanies to do his bidding. He was always in charge. In the nWo it was Hogan using Bischoff to get what he wanted. I also take to task when anyone say that DX was an nWo rip off. The concept of the two groups were completely different. The ONLY similarity that they had was that they were rebellious. The nWo was set as a separate wrestling organization attempting a takeover of WCW. DX was simply two guys (and later 4) who were doing anything possible to thumb their nose to the authority. Both companies were certainly lifting ideas from the other. Any good company would. WWE still came up with FAR more original ideas than WCW did, and that is why they won convincingly. In short...Bischoff is a damn good wrestling promoter. Vince is the greatest who ever lived. |
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Post by stingfan on Oct 29, 2009 22:38:54 GMT -5
First of all "Mr. McMahon" may be the most over heel character in wrestling history. So while he may be a horrible actor what he did worked. For some people. Not the more than 50% of fans who watched Raw or Nitro during the height of the Monday night war who quit watching after Vince bought WCW. I don't think Bischoff ripped off his heel turn from this incarnation of Vince (he probably didn't even know about it) but Vince certainly had his character in mind. Vince claims the inspirations for his Mr. Macmahon character came from the Montreal screwjob. At that time (late 97) the nWo was the most over act in wrestling and Bischoff was their storyline leader. DX was simply two guys (and later 4) who were doing anything possible to thumb their nose to the authority. Yeah, and you don't remember the nWo dropping fliers that said "tradition bites?" The nWo thumbed their noses at authority every single week. For Christ's sake DX started spray painting things! Lame Ripoff. In short...Bischoff is a damn good wrestling promoter. Vince is the greatest who ever lived. That's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it. Mine is that Bischoff saved wrestling and Vince saved his company from going bankrupt. If Vince hadn't finally realized the wrestling audience wanted something different by looking at WCW's success he would have pushed Doink the clown right to the unemployment office. |
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Post by gamblore on Oct 29, 2009 22:50:55 GMT -5
DX never came off as an nWo rip off to me, no matter how many times fans have tried to point out the similarities. They both thumbed their noses at authority, but they had very different motives. The nWo was trying to take over wCw, so it would make sense that they would refuse to recognize the authority of its management. While DX may have thumbed their noses at authority on principle, they never had aspirations to take over the WWF the way the nWo wanted to take over wCw.
As far as spray painting, I would be willing to buy that they were both stables were both "gang" gimmicks, of sorts, but still very distinct from each other.
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Post by stingfan on Oct 29, 2009 22:54:43 GMT -5
Well I give up, then.
Shawn Michaels could have spraypainted a big green "DX" on the WWF world title belt and played it like a guitar and you guys would still be all, "I don't see it."
;D
Nothing personal, we'll have to agree to disagree.
To me, it's got to be the most naked ripoff in wrestling history (tied with WCW's Renegade).
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 29, 2009 23:02:20 GMT -5
For some people. Not the more than 50% of fans who watched Raw or Nitro during the height of the Monday night war who quit watching after Vince bought WCW. Of course not to some people. Quite a few people don't like Hulk Hogan either. Doesn't change the fact that he's the most over character in history. Same applies with Vince. People didn't tune out because Vince wasn't over. His Mr. McMahon character had already peaked around this time anyway. This is a HUGE stretch. You have a link of him saying that? Anyway...that still doesn't change the fact that while the Screwjob obviously jumpstarted him playing the heel promoter in WWF he had already played the role in Memphis YEARS before Bischoff did in WCW. Again no buys. Of course...both were rebellious. We've established that. It doesn't change the fact that one was a two man stable which served no purpose other than driving the authority wild. The other was a 50 man stable which was trying to become the authority. Absolutely WCW's successes caused WWF to change direction, and they did lift some thing from WCW which were successful as any good business would do. Bischoff deserves a lot of credit for this. The difference is WWF evolved, and ended up blowing WCW's doors off. Once WWF regained the lead then WCW tried not only ripping off what WWF was doing at the time, but BLATANTLY doing so. Notice when WWF started their comeback there might have been a few things that were comparable to what WCW doing, they still had their own identity. WCW could never master that once they fell behind. Thats on Bisch. I'm not arguing facts and opinions. By any objective measure Vince McMahon is far and away the most successful wrestling promoter of all time. Taking nothing away from Bischoff though. He was damn good. |
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 29, 2009 23:05:57 GMT -5
Well I give up, then. Shawn Michaels could have spraypainted a big green "DX" on the WWF world title belt and played it like a guitar and you guys would still be all, "I don't see it." ;D Nothing personal, we'll have to agree to disagree. To me, it's got to be the most naked ripoff in wrestling history (tied with WCW's Renegade). But he didn't, because Shawn's aspirations wasn't to make the WWF Title the DX Title. It was to be the WWF Champ while driving the boss nuts. That's all we're saying. Different groups. Different objectives. Only similarities really is that they both were rebellious and DX used spray paint once. |
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livetowin
Dennis Stamp
Just Keep Walkin'
Don't be negatin'!
Posts: 4,430
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Post by livetowin on Oct 29, 2009 23:17:01 GMT -5
Guys, does it really matter if the material was stolen or not? We have some good memories to look back on (And obviously, way more to come), let's just leave it at that.
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Post by steve85uk on Oct 29, 2009 23:23:35 GMT -5
he hasnt watched TNA for a couple of months, hes bashing a show he did watch, but gave up on because of its crapness
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Post by stingfan on Oct 29, 2009 23:43:53 GMT -5
His Mr. McMahon character had already peaked around this time anyway. This is a HUGE stretch. Well I think it's a huge stretch to say fans watched WWF because of the owner's character. I don't think people stopped tuning in because of Vince the character but I also don't believe he's the reason people DID watch either. Every time I have ever asked a WWF fan "Why do you watch?" The answer was always, "Stone Cold", "The Rock" or "Habit." You have a link of him saying that? THe Monday Night War DVD. He said something to the effect of after Montreal the average wrestling fan thought he was the devil, so rather than continue to defend himself, he figured he'd play into the "evil bastard boss" cliche. I'm not arguing facts and opinions. By any objective measure Vince McMahon is far and away the most successful wrestling promoter of all time. Taking nothing away from Bischoff though. He was damn good. Well I am talking opinion. In mine, Bischoff is a better businessman than Vince and a MUCH better performer. Both are pretty much SOBs as real people though. I think (and I can never prove this, obviously) if Bischoff had OWNED WCW, WWF would have eventually gone out of business and WCW would still be around today. But Bisch got replaced, Russo got hired and the rest is Wrestlecrap. |
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Post by Asics Johnson on Oct 30, 2009 0:25:32 GMT -5
Pardon me for interjecting here, but what on Earth would "Stone Cold" Steve Austin have been without the Mr. McMahon character? He was pretty cool to begin with, and he is still number three on my all time list behind Hogan and Flair... but, really man. If it wasn't for the evil McMahon character, then Stone Cold would have had no authority figure to give the middle finger to. Furthermore, without Steve Austin, The Rock's career would have never been what it became. I'm sure you see where I'm going here. People weren't directly watching to see Vince McMahon, but they were definitely glued to the tube in droves to see him potentially get beat his ass kicked. It can't be denied.
The video clip provided earlier that proved Vince was already laying the foundation for the Mr. McMahon long before Eric Bischoff was doing his "evil owner" shtick cannot be denied either... but you denied it anyway, so I guess we'll see where this goes.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Oct 30, 2009 0:36:52 GMT -5
Agree Asics, the Mr. Mcmahon character from that era is one of the best heel characters of all time.
Sure he got stale later, but without that antagonist to go against, Austin wouldn't have been nearly as big etc.
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Post by gamblore on Oct 30, 2009 1:21:30 GMT -5
he hasnt watched TNA for a couple of months, hes bashing a show he did watch, but gave up on because of its crapness That's exactly what I meant. Storm was still watching Impact when Russo's influence was still being diluted by Jarrett, Mantell, and others. For all Storm knows, it may have been one of those guys who was responsible for the stuff he didn't like. By admitting that he hasn't watched for the last couple of months, AFTER Russo gained more control over the show, Storm has forfeited the right to make an informed opinion. |
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
Posts: 29,404
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Post by Sephiroth on Oct 30, 2009 1:54:13 GMT -5
WCW, WWF/E, and TNA are not "copying" each other per se. Rather, they are just replaying some of the tried and true methods in wrestling that have been done over and over since the very first.
DX and the NWO were similar in many ways. The two were set up as doing "realistic" things like going to locations outside the ring. They did risque things like overly violent or overly sexual antics. But honestly, the idea of a stable of characters, good guys or bad guys, is as old as the hills. And stables were hot in the mid to late 90's-lest we forget we also had The Nation, The Dungeon of Doom, at least 3 different NWO's as well as the LWO, we had the DOA and The Ministry, The Corporation-which underwent two or three incarnations itself, etc. I sometimes think part of it was that wrestling was much more targeted toward teens at the time, and the desire to split society up into "us vs. them" is very prominent in a person's thinking at that age.
Also, a "boss" character is hardly new. Different feds all over had every now and then had a "president, commissioner, owner" etc. come in to pass decisions. Jack Tunney anyone? Heck, the idea of an evil boss character wasn't especially new either. The only difference is that Mr. McMahon and heel Eric Bischoff took the involvement of said character to new heights, becoming fixtures on television and very often active ring participants.
None of these things are new. They were just done a little differently at the time.The formula is basically the same, the only thing different is the time period and the people involved.
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Warwolf
Unicron
Fear the Wolf
Posts: 2,541
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Post by Warwolf on Oct 30, 2009 4:11:29 GMT -5
Hogan and RVD are friends? Why is this not a sitcom? RVD - You got a tattoo! Hogan - You got one too! RVD - What does mine say? Hogan - Dude! What does mine say? RVD - Brother! What does mine say? And it goes on like this... Actually, when I saw the footage today on Impact I didn't believe it at first when I saw Hogan had a Tattoo, when they showed the press conference later, I was able to verify that yeah, he has one. Anyone know what it is or says? I couldn't see it that clearly from the angles and how far back they were from it. |
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Post by snugglecakes on Oct 30, 2009 4:31:34 GMT -5
I don't think you'd find many people who would agree with that opinion though. The idea that the WWF would have gone out of business if Bischoff owned WCW is flawed. As President, he had complete power, overseeing the hiring, firing, marketing and creative process of WCW. Look at the multitude of mistakes he made; hotshotting angles, hiring people to large contracts with no return, throwing money at celebrities who didn't increase ratings or exposure. Not to mention he was partly responsible for the awful New Blood-Millionaire's Club era (the other guy responsible for that mess is currrently the lead writer for TNA, by the way).
Eric is/was a great self-promoter, and he made the most of using other peoples' ideas and milking them as much as he could, but this notion that he was this extra-ordinarily creative force is overblown.
Don't get me wrong, he was the most successful head of WCW. Unfortunately, his failings and faults stand out a lot more than his accomplishments.
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Post by thatguybayne on Oct 30, 2009 5:59:53 GMT -5
Anyone know what it is or says? Brother! What does mine say? Ok, I'll knock it off now. I had no idea Hulk had a tattoo either. Didn't think he was the type. |
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 30, 2009 7:10:18 GMT -5
I don't think you'd find many people who would agree with that opinion though. The idea that the WWF would have gone out of business if Bischoff owned WCW is flawed. As President, he had complete power, overseeing the hiring, firing, marketing and creative process of WCW. Look at the multitude of mistakes he made; hotshotting angles, hiring people to large contracts with no return, throwing money at celebrities who didn't increase ratings or exposure. Not to mention he was partly responsible for the awful New Blood-Millionaire's Club era (the other guy responsible for that mess is currrently the lead writer for TNA, by the way). Eric is/was a great self-promoter, and he made the most of using other peoples' ideas and milking them as much as he could, but this notion that he was this extra-ordinarily creative force is overblown. Don't get me wrong, he was the most successful head of WCW. Unfortunately, his failings and faults stand out a lot more than his accomplishments. Exactly. As owner Bischoff would have never been in position to make some of the huge hires that he did make in order to put WCW ahead of WWF for that two year period. Even with all that money, and all those hires, and one PHENOMENAL angle, he still wasn't able to put Vince away. So I'm not sure given all that information you can come up with the conclusion that Bischoff is a better businessman. |
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 30, 2009 7:14:20 GMT -5
Well I think it's a huge stretch to say fans watched WWF because of the owner's character. I don't think people stopped tuning in because of Vince the character but I also don't believe he's the reason people DID watch either. Every time I have ever asked a WWF fan "Why do you watch?" The answer was always, "Stone Cold", "The Rock" or "Habit." So everyone was watching because of the babyface. As has been said many, many, many times by many people including in this thread. A great good guy is nothing without an equally as great bad guy. Austin was getting big when he feuded with Bret, but it was the feud with Vince that put him over the top Right, after Montreal he decided to go with a character that he had already developed long before heel Bischoff (see clip). Much like saying DX was a rip off of the nWo the only comparison that can be made between Bisch's heel character and Vince's is that they were heels. They were different in virtually every other way. |
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Krimzon
Crow T. Robot
This guy is the man!
R.I.P. Deadpool
Posts: 43,870
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Post by Krimzon on Oct 30, 2009 7:31:08 GMT -5
A 4-sided ring!? Lunacy! It'll never work.
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Post by poi zen rana on Oct 30, 2009 8:52:52 GMT -5
What is a seven sided ring doing in the impact zone?
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