hollywood
King Koopa
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Post by hollywood on Oct 30, 2009 16:13:29 GMT -5
The only reason I used the word "petty" was because it seems dangerous to want to change the infrastructure of a company just to eliminate one guy you don't like. I am not a Russo mark by any means but I warned earlier that getting rid of him in exchange of a short-term ratings boost from Hogan is quite perilous, especially given the fact that we know what happens when Hogan is given lots of contract leverage. NO WRESTLER should have that level of control. It leads to incredibly stale, predictable booking. Unless we want a return to the "All Jeff Jarrett, all the time" style, except with Hogan instead of JJ. If Hogan manages to bump Russo out of the wrestling industry forever, I'll be a Hogan mark again for the first time in over a decade. |
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Post by corndog on Oct 30, 2009 18:03:26 GMT -5
And let's not forget Raven and the Flock. Easily the most over midcard stable in the business. (Should've moved up to main event level, but that's another debate.) While I agree with your sentiment, and do believe Bischoff was better than he got credit for, both the Triple H led '98 version of DX and The Rock led version of the Nation were midcard stables and far more over than the Flock ever was. Midcard stables? The Flock was by Raven, who was a midcarder, Saturn was a midcarder and Kidman was a low end midcarder during the flock, the rest of them were jobbers. DX was led by HHH, who was a midcarder at first and then ended up becoming a main eventer pretty quickly. Heck right after Wrestlemania 14 he was main eventing against Austin at house shows, and at Summerslam won the IC title, he was pretty much a main eventer once DX restarted. The Rock was IC champion for about 3/4 of a year, had a big fued with Austin in late 97, he was definitely a main eventer pretty much the whole time he led the Nation. |
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 30, 2009 21:21:42 GMT -5
While I agree with your sentiment, and do believe Bischoff was better than he got credit for, both the Triple H led '98 version of DX and The Rock led version of the Nation were midcard stables and far more over than the Flock ever was. Midcard stables? The Flock was by Raven, who was a midcarder, Saturn was a midcarder and Kidman was a low end midcarder during the flock, the rest of them were jobbers. DX was led by HHH, who was a midcarder at first and then ended up becoming a main eventer pretty quickly. Heck right after Wrestlemania 14 he was main eventing against Austin at house shows, and at Summerslam won the IC title, he was pretty much a main eventer once DX restarted. The Rock was IC champion for about 3/4 of a year, had a big fued with Austin in late 97, he was definitely a main eventer pretty much the whole time he led the Nation. Umm...no The Rock led Nation went until about September of '98. The HHH led DX in its original incarination went until early '99. Both stables broke up when the leaders were elevated to main event status. Rock feuded with HHH over the Intercontinental Championship during this time while the two stables feuded with each other. The Intercontinental Title is, by definition, a midcard title. When Rock was put on the fast track to the WWE title the Nation broke up. When HHH became the Game DX broke up. |
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Post by Asics Johnson on Oct 30, 2009 21:35:17 GMT -5
The video clip provided earlier that proved Vince was already laying the foundation for the Mr. McMahon long before Eric Bischoff was doing his "evil owner" shtick cannot be denied either... but you denied it anyway, so I guess we'll see where this goes. I never denied anything, just pointed out the fact that Vince HIMSELF says the Mr. MacMahon character was a result of the Montreal screwjob which happened in Nov. 97, when Eric Bischoff and the nWo were the most over heels in the business. It's so bizarre the way Vince's supporters disregard Vince's own words when they don't like what he says. Another example: Vince has said over and over "WWE isn't wrestling. It's sports entertainment." I agree. But whenever I say "WWE isn't wrestling, so you can't really compare it to TNA/ROH" WWE fans get angry with me. For AGREEING with Vince. When I quote Vince directly saying"WWE isn't wrestling" they're just like, "Whatever he's just saying that." Wait a second... you might wanna pull back on those pedals, sir. I don't know where you get the impression that I am such a staunch Vince supporter, OR that I have disregarded what he said in the Monday Night Wars DVD that you act like no one else has ever seen. He does say, and he is correct, that the catalyst for Mr. McMahon becoming a full time character in WWE was the heat he garnered from the Montreal Screwjob. You said, and you were incorrect, that Vince McMahon pretty much ripped off Eric Bischoff by utilizing the heel boss gimmick. That's why people are arguing with you, I would imagine. It's certainly not because we are all dangling from McMahon's jock, it's just because we all know that Vince was doing the gimmick prior to Bischoff doing it whether it was full blown until 1997 or not. |
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Post by stingfan on Oct 30, 2009 23:37:06 GMT -5
I don't know where you get the impression that I am such a staunch Vince supporter, OR that I have disregarded what he said in the Monday Night Wars DVD that you act like no one else has ever seen. Robbymac asked me where Vince said Montreal led to his evil boss character so I told him. I'm not acting like I'm the only one who saw that dishonest piece of crap. Obviously someone had never seen it, or they wouldn't have asked me where he said it. By the way, I'm sure he's said it in more than one place. You said, and you were incorrect, that Vince McMahon pretty much ripped off Eric Bischoff by utilizing the heel boss gimmick. No, I'm not. You're kidding yourself if you think so. Give me a break. After decades of Vince rarely ever being acknowledged as WWF owner on the air after WCW President Bischoff is leader of the nWo, WCW is kicking WWF's ass and suddenly WWF's real-life owner is suddenly their top heel character? Someone called that 'coincidental.' If you want to go on believing that go ahead. Just don't expect me to. That's why people are arguing with you, I would imagine. Nobody is arguing with ME about whether WWE is wrestling or not. They are arguing with Vince about what his product is. I just happen to agree with Vince on this one issue. Getting back to the topic, I somewhat agree with Lance Storm and Hollywood. I'll take Eazy E over Russo any day. In fact, I'd take Eric over either Vince in a heartbeat. |
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Post by Asics Johnson on Oct 31, 2009 0:14:20 GMT -5
McMahon. Used. The. Gimmick. Previously.
That's all that really needs to be said. If he was doing the evil boss thing prior to Eric Bischoff then it's impossible for him to have ripped it off. Period.
As far as the WWE isn't wrestling argument goes... well... I agree with you... or Vince... or whomever said that it isn't wrestling on whatever exclusive DVD that it was most certainly quoted from.
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Post by poi zen rana on Oct 31, 2009 0:40:42 GMT -5
i don't really have an opinion either way but i think stingfan has a point. despite doing it first vince wasnt doing it in his own company at that time for whatever reason. it wasn't until bisch did it that vince decided to use that heel character he had developed as an on air antagonist in his own company on a regular basis.
i don't really care or think about whether or not he ripped that off just thought i would point out i don't think mcmahon being a heel first excludes the possibility of bisch inspiring vince to bring the character back for his own company as the center of attention.
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Post by snugglecakes on Oct 31, 2009 3:19:12 GMT -5
As President, he had complete power, overseeing the hiring, firing, marketing and creative process of WCW. Yes, until ratings slipped slightly and he was REPLACED with Russo! If Vince didn't own WWF and could be replaced whenever ratings slipped, he would have been replaced many times. Don't get me wrong, he was the most successful head of WCW. Unfortunately, his failings and faults stand out a lot more than his accomplishments. No, WCWs failings and faults stand out a lot more than their accomplishments. But the failings and faults came from Russo and others when Bischoff was sitting at home. Eric didn't put the belt on David Arquette or all the other wrestlecrap Vinny created. Biscoff had next to nothing with the millionaires club angle (which I liked) and both him and Russo admit that. After EBs first meeting with Russo he knew they could never work together and began trying to purchase WCW. He wasn't fired just because ratings slipped, he was fired because WCW was losing a large amount of money due to plummeting buy rates, live attendance and paying Master P, Kiss and other celebs ludicrous sums of money when they made no difference to ratings or the box office. Not to mention his decisions in hiring and firing members of the creative team (making Nash a booker stands out). He may not have put the belt on Arquette, but he was in charge during most of '99, when Nitro and Thunder were both abysmal. |
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Post by snugglecakes on Oct 31, 2009 3:25:51 GMT -5
Just one thing I'd care to point about Bischoff being a "one trick pony." It wasn't just the nWo and Hogan's epic heel turn that pushed WCW ahead of WWE for a time. Granted, it was a BIG part of it, but that wasn't the only thing. Something that seems long forgotten is WCW's Cruiserweight Division, something that no one's managed to recreate since the company folded. Some might point to TNA's X-Division, which, yea, it's kinda similar. But TNA's always tried to make it clear the X-Division isn't a weight class ("It's not about weight limits; it's about no limits! blah blah"). And there's really no point in considering WWE's Light-Heavyweight Division or repackaged Cruiserweight Division. And let's not forget Raven and the Flock. Easily the most over midcard stable in the business. (Should've moved up to main event level, but that's another debate.) And, of course, we can't leave out Bill Goldberg, who became one of the industry's biggest stars by literally just doing 3-minute squash matches every week. There's probably even a few others I'm not thinking of right now. So, in retrospect, Bischoff made a TON of mistakes, and people may not agree with all of his decisions, strategies, or ideas. But he's hardly a "one-trick pony." If Bischoff's a one trick pony, then Russo's barely even a one-hit wonder. (Best I could come up with.  ) You do realise the Cruiserweight division existed before Nitro even came along, don't you? WCW already had a history of light heavyweights being showcased, with Liger/Pillman/Armstrong/Flamingo all featured in the early 90s. It wasn't something that Bischoff plucked out of thin air. As for Goldberg, WCW lucked into him. They didn't expect him to get that over. Watch how they booked him when his first debuted, he was feuding with Mongo. The Streak gimmick was an organic process, cultivated by the wrting team of Sullivan & Taylor. |
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Oct 31, 2009 3:27:33 GMT -5
He wasn't fired just because ratings slipped, he was fired because WCW was losing a large amount of money due to plummeting buy rates, live attendance and paying Master P, Kiss and other celebs ludicrous sums of money when they made no difference to ratings or the box office. Not to mention his decisions in hiring and firing members of the creative team (making Nash a booker stands out). He may not have put the belt on Arquette, but he was in charge during most of '99, when Nitro and Thunder were both abysmal. Yeah, it was Bischoff '99 that drove alot of the audience away. Russo's run was a Hail Mary that didn't work to try to repair the damage Bischoff caused in the first place. Yet Russo always gets the entire blame for some reason. |
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Post by Bubble Lead on Oct 31, 2009 4:27:34 GMT -5
This is sorta like denying the cruiserweight division did not inspire Vince to create a Light Heavyweight division because Vince at some point beforehand had used wrestlers on his shows that weighed less than 230 pounds.
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hollywood
King Koopa
the bullet dodger
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Post by hollywood on Oct 31, 2009 9:21:51 GMT -5
This is sorta like denying the cruiserweight division did not inspire Vince to create a Light Heavyweight division because Vince at some point beforehand had used wrestlers on his shows that weighed less than 230 pounds. I don't think anyone's suggesting Vince never used smaller guys. But he never managed to get an entire division of them over the way Bischoff did. And still hasn't. |
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Post by stingfan on Oct 31, 2009 9:41:54 GMT -5
McMahon. Used. The. Gimmick. Previously. That's all that really needs to be said. McMahon. Had. The. Idea. To. Use. The. Gimmick. In. Late. 1997. That's all that really needs to be said. If you don't agree on that point than leave me alone and go argue with Vince about when he decided to become WWF's top heel character. Here's a hint: He didn't decide to become WWF's top heel BEFORE the nWo had him on the verge of bankruptcy. So go argue with Vince, I'm done. |
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Post by BitterAF on Oct 31, 2009 10:26:16 GMT -5
McMahon. Used. The. Gimmick. Previously. That's all that really needs to be said. McMahon. Had. The. Idea. To. Use. The. Gimmick. In. Late. 1997. That's all that really needs to be said. If you don't agree on that point than leave me alone and go argue with Vince about when he decided to become WWF's top heel character. Here's a hint: He didn't decide to become WWF's top heel BEFORE the nWo had him on the verge of bankruptcy. So go argue with Vince, I'm done. Did you not watch the video? Vince clearly did the gimmic in 93/94. If the Screwjob never happened, I don't think would have went with the evil boss at all, but in the middle of the MNW, it was perfect timing. Yeah, Eric was a heel boss as well, but I think after the Screwjob, Vince and co realized what just fell in their lap and ran with it. And saying Vince had the idea in 97. Yeah, to USE the gimmic, yes, not completely coming up with the idea from scratch. The video posted earlier shows that he had an evil boss/character idea years before. |
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Post by BitterAF on Oct 31, 2009 10:31:19 GMT -5
I don't think DX was a copy of the nWo either. If there were any direct similarities, like the spray paint, I would consider that more as a nod to the Kliq ties the two factions had. Comparing DX and the NWO is like saying "the NWO ripped off the Horseman because they were guys who did some stuff and yeah." My guess is Vince saw how the NWO, a group in WCW, was getting over. I think Vince or HBK/HHH took the idea for a group, since it was working in WCW, but it was a differently heel group who was maybe penis references every 20 seconds and poking fun at everyone they worked with, while the NWO tried to take over WCW. |
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Post by BitterAF on Oct 31, 2009 10:32:36 GMT -5
Just one thing I'd care to point about Bischoff being a "one trick pony." It wasn't just the nWo and Hogan's epic heel turn that pushed WCW ahead of WWE for a time. Granted, it was a BIG part of it, but that wasn't the only thing. Something that seems long forgotten is WCW's Cruiserweight Division, something that no one's managed to recreate since the company folded. Some might point to TNA's X-Division, which, yea, it's kinda similar. But TNA's always tried to make it clear the X-Division isn't a weight class ("It's not about weight limits; it's about no limits! blah blah"). And there's really no point in considering WWE's Light-Heavyweight Division or repackaged Cruiserweight Division. And let's not forget Raven and the Flock. Easily the most over midcard stable in the business. (Should've moved up to main event level, but that's another debate.) And, of course, we can't leave out Bill Goldberg, who became one of the industry's biggest stars by literally just doing 3-minute squash matches every week. There's probably even a few others I'm not thinking of right now. So, in retrospect, Bischoff made a TON of mistakes, and people may not agree with all of his decisions, strategies, or ideas. But he's hardly a "one-trick pony." If Bischoff's a one trick pony, then Russo's barely even a one-hit wonder. (Best I could come up with. ) You do realise the Cruiserweight division existed before Nitro even came along, don't you? WCW already had a history of light heavyweights being showcased, with Liger/Pillman/Armstrong/Flamingo all featured in the early 90s. It wasn't something that Bischoff plucked out of thin air. If you want to get into it, there would have been no cruiserweight division in 96 if it wasn't for ECW  |
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Post by stingfan on Oct 31, 2009 12:18:29 GMT -5
If the Screwjob never happened, I don't think would have went with the evil boss at all, but in the middle of the MNW, it was perfect timing. Yes, it was perfect timing BECAUSE THE OTHER SIDE WAS ALREADY DOING IT SUCCESSFULLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We totally agree. Discussion over. |
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Post by Citizen Snips on Oct 31, 2009 15:00:05 GMT -5
Hogan and RVD are friends? Why is this not a sitcom? RVD - You got a tattoo! Hogan - You got one too! RVD - What does mine say? Hogan - Dude! What does mine say? RVD - Brother! What does mine say? And it goes on like this... This reply became 100x funnier when the thread itself turned into this joke with the whole McMahon Heel Character debate. To paraphrase Alan Moore's "From Hell", you made it all up...and it all came true anyway. Bravo. |
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Post by nerdinitupagain on Oct 31, 2009 15:11:54 GMT -5
Stop the debates. WWF reacted to WCW by taking ideas (sometimes liberal, sometimes subtle) at times. McMahon won because he was able to sustain for a longer period.
But this a stupid debate because it will never be finished. So let's stop now.. and go back to loving Lance Storm like the IWC should.
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Post by BitterAF on Oct 31, 2009 15:21:11 GMT -5
If the Screwjob never happened, I don't think would have went with the evil boss at all, but in the middle of the MNW, it was perfect timing. Yes, it was perfect timing BECAUSE THE OTHER SIDE WAS ALREADY DOING IT SUCCESSFULLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We totally agree. Discussion over. No, we don't agree. We have been debating about who came up with the idea. Clearly, it was Vince. And with the Screwjob, if it never happened Vince wouldn't have had a reason to use it. The way things worked out with Bret, it would have been silly not to use it. There was a legit situation and with Stone Cold forming, the puzzle pieces fit together. The reason you don't get what I said is because if there was no event (Screwjob), the evil boss character would have not been brought up, since there was no reason for it. If there was a WCW screwjob then an evil boss, okay, but it has nothing to do with WCW, but the situations that arose within the WWF at the time with Bret and Stone Cold's character. EDIT Back to Lance Storm. If you watch a program and don't like it, you pretty much stop watching it and following it, which is what he has done. If he didn't like TNA's product, how should he know what's going on with it? Just because he's in wrestling isn't an answer. Just because you like cars doesn't mean you have like every type of car and follow what ever car company does. He didn't like the product so he stopped watching it. After a couple of months have past and the product has had time to show some change, he may watch it again and reevaluate it again. Can you blame the man for not keeping up with a product he doesn't like? |
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