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Post by stingfan on Oct 30, 2009 8:58:23 GMT -5
The video clip provided earlier that proved Vince was already laying the foundation for the Mr. McMahon long before Eric Bischoff was doing his "evil owner" shtick cannot be denied either... but you denied it anyway, so I guess we'll see where this goes. I never denied anything, just pointed out the fact that Vince HIMSELF says the Mr. MacMahon character was a result of the Montreal screwjob which happened in Nov. 97, when Eric Bischoff and the nWo were the most over heels in the business. It's so bizarre the way Vince's supporters disregard Vince's own words when they don't like what he says. Another example: Vince has said over and over "WWE isn't wrestling. It's sports entertainment." I agree. But whenever I say "WWE isn't wrestling, so you can't really compare it to TNA/ROH" WWE fans get angry with me. For AGREEING with Vince. When I quote Vince directly saying"WWE isn't wrestling" they're just like, "Whatever he's just saying that." |
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Post by stingfan on Oct 30, 2009 9:04:58 GMT -5
As President, he had complete power, overseeing the hiring, firing, marketing and creative process of WCW. Yes, until ratings slipped slightly and he was REPLACED with Russo! If Vince didn't own WWF and could be replaced whenever ratings slipped, he would have been replaced many times. Don't get me wrong, he was the most successful head of WCW. Unfortunately, his failings and faults stand out a lot more than his accomplishments. No, WCWs failings and faults stand out a lot more than their accomplishments. But the failings and faults came from Russo and others when Bischoff was sitting at home. Eric didn't put the belt on David Arquette or all the other wrestlecrap Vinny created. Biscoff had next to nothing with the millionaires club angle (which I liked) and both him and Russo admit that. After EBs first meeting with Russo he knew they could never work together and began trying to purchase WCW. |
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Post by glorydays on Oct 30, 2009 10:25:16 GMT -5
If Hogan does bring his friends along, I would guess the ones who can still work would be in the forefront (RVD in particular). The Beefcake's of the world, not so much. Hogan and RVD are friends? Why is this not a sitcom? RVD and Warrior look like they might be buddies as well (they are on some YouTube videos together). The sitcom ideas are limitless. |
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Post by glorydays on Oct 30, 2009 10:35:58 GMT -5
I think the WWF stealing ideas from WCW is a fairly accurate statement. The nWo becomes the hottest angle of the 90's, and all of a sudden "gang warz" start taking place on WWF TV. Bischoff is a corrupt promoter, then one year later Vince turns into one (although he had no choice with the screwjob). The nWo do a memorable Horseman skit/parody on live TV and then DX does the same thing to the Nation a year later. The Cruiserweight championship in WCW.....the lightweight championship in the WWF shortly after that. Nitro live every week....soon enough the WWF follows. Scott Hall does a crotch chop as early as Bash at the Beach 96 during Hogan's speech, and then DX makes an entire marketing catch phrase around it two years later (although that might be a Kliq thing more than a WCW/WWF thing). You can even say aspects of the Sting character were ripped a bit as he was one of the first full blown tweeners in that era who attacked both faces and heels until he eventually just focused on the nWo. And so on.
Now I am not saying WCW didn't copy ideas either, but I always thought it was very transparent that the WWF took ideas from WCW around that time (95-97) and it is kind of sad that the WWF's stuff is remembered more just because they are still in business.
I think Bischoff has a good mind for the business, but he just got carried away with the money aspect. Put him on creative or marketing and he can be very good.
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hollywood
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Post by hollywood on Oct 30, 2009 12:01:19 GMT -5
Just one thing I'd care to point about Bischoff being a "one trick pony." It wasn't just the nWo and Hogan's epic heel turn that pushed WCW ahead of WWE for a time. Granted, it was a BIG part of it, but that wasn't the only thing. Something that seems long forgotten is WCW's Cruiserweight Division, something that no one's managed to recreate since the company folded. Some might point to TNA's X-Division, which, yea, it's kinda similar. But TNA's always tried to make it clear the X-Division isn't a weight class ("It's not about weight limits; it's about no limits! blah blah"). And there's really no point in considering WWE's Light-Heavyweight Division or repackaged Cruiserweight Division. And let's not forget Raven and the Flock. Easily the most over midcard stable in the business. (Should've moved up to main event level, but that's another debate.) And, of course, we can't leave out Bill Goldberg, who became one of the industry's biggest stars by literally just doing 3-minute squash matches every week. There's probably even a few others I'm not thinking of right now. So, in retrospect, Bischoff made a TON of mistakes, and people may not agree with all of his decisions, strategies, or ideas. But he's hardly a "one-trick pony." If Bischoff's a one trick pony, then Russo's barely even a one-hit wonder. (Best I could come up with.  ) |
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AriadosMan
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Post by AriadosMan on Oct 30, 2009 12:02:15 GMT -5
So basically, Lance only likes this because it may get Russo fired?
Petty.
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Post by hollywood on Oct 30, 2009 12:03:21 GMT -5
So basically, Lance only likes this because it may get Russo fired? Petty. Unless he honestly thinks Russo is bad for TNA. Which, right or wrong, isn't petty.  |
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Post by AriadosMan on Oct 30, 2009 13:33:33 GMT -5
So basically, Lance only likes this because it may get Russo fired? Petty. Unless he honestly thinks Russo is bad for TNA. Which, right or wrong, isn't petty. And you seriously think Bischoff and Hogan would be better? Remember, they were just as involved in WCW's fall as Russo was. |
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Post by MichaelMartini on Oct 30, 2009 13:41:49 GMT -5
I don't think DX was a copy of the nWo either. If there were any direct similarities, like the spray paint, I would consider that more as a nod to the Kliq ties the two factions had.
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 30, 2009 13:43:43 GMT -5
And let's not forget Raven and the Flock. Easily the most over midcard stable in the business. (Should've moved up to main event level, but that's another debate.) While I agree with your sentiment, and do believe Bischoff was better than he got credit for, both the Triple H led '98 version of DX and The Rock led version of the Nation were midcard stables and far more over than the Flock ever was. |
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Post by AriadosMan on Oct 30, 2009 13:45:40 GMT -5
And let's not forget Raven and the Flock. Easily the most over midcard stable in the business. (Should've moved up to main event level, but that's another debate.) While I agree with your sentiment, and do believe Bischoff was better than he got credit for, both the Triple H led '98 version of DX and The Rock led version of the Nation were midcard stables and far more over than the Flock ever was. Those groups weren't constantly jobbed though. |
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 30, 2009 13:49:10 GMT -5
The video clip provided earlier that proved Vince was already laying the foundation for the Mr. McMahon long before Eric Bischoff was doing his "evil owner" shtick cannot be denied either... but you denied it anyway, so I guess we'll see where this goes. I never denied anything, just pointed out the fact that Vince HIMSELF says the Mr. MacMahon character was a result of the Montreal screwjob which happened in Nov. 97, when Eric Bischoff and the nWo were the most over heels in the business. It's so bizarre the way Vince's supporters disregard Vince's own words when they don't like what he says. Another example: Vince has said over and over "WWE isn't wrestling. It's sports entertainment." I agree. But whenever I say "WWE isn't wrestling, so you can't really compare it to TNA/ROH" WWE fans get angry with me. For AGREEING with Vince. When I quote Vince directly saying"WWE isn't wrestling" they're just like, "Whatever he's just saying that." The idea that the Montreal incident is what caused them to run with the Mr. McMahon character in WWF isn't what is in question. The idea that the Mr. McMahon character is a ripoff of Bischoff's heel character is. Clearly, as evidenced in the video, Vince had his heel mannerisms down long before Bischoff turned heel. The fact that Bischoff was a heel character in another promotion is really coincidental in regards to McMahon playing a completely different type of heel promoter. A character he had already portrayed in another promotion. |
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 30, 2009 13:50:24 GMT -5
While I agree with your sentiment, and do believe Bischoff was better than he got credit for, both the Triple H led '98 version of DX and The Rock led version of the Nation were midcard stables and far more over than the Flock ever was. Those groups weren't constantly jobbed though. Probably because they were more over as midcard stables. |
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Post by AriadosMan on Oct 30, 2009 14:01:36 GMT -5
True, but they were also given the chance to get over. I remember alot of DX shirts back in the day. I don't think the Flock had merch or even (other than Raven) discernible personalities.
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 30, 2009 14:17:50 GMT -5
True, but they were also given the chance to get over. I remember alot of DX shirts back in the day. I don't think the Flock had merch or even (other than Raven) discernible personalities. You'd have an easier time comparing The Nation to the The Flock as they were both heel factions. There wasn't much Nation merchandise, and none of them had discernable personalities until the very end. The difference is Raven faded into WCW obscurity and Rock got the Jesus push. |
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Post by hollywood on Oct 30, 2009 14:26:26 GMT -5
Unless he honestly thinks Russo is bad for TNA. Which, right or wrong, isn't petty. And you seriously think Bischoff and Hogan would be better? Remember, they were just as involved in WCW's fall as Russo was. I never said that. I'm only pointing out that calling Storm "petty" might be innacurate. And let's not forget Raven and the Flock. Easily the most over midcard stable in the business. (Should've moved up to main event level, but that's another debate.) While I agree with your sentiment, and do believe Bischoff was better than he got credit for, both the Triple H led '98 version of DX and The Rock led version of the Nation were midcard stables and far more over than the Flock ever was. You make a fair point. I'd be willing to grant DX was more over as midcarders than the Flock. But I'm not so sure the Nation ever was, unless you count the months just prior to the Rock's push--in which case the remaining Nation members were really only over by standing next to the Rock. Still and all, I was just trying to say Eric's not a "one trick pony." I'm not saying he's perfect (Lord knows, he isn't), just that he did a lot more than create the nWo. |
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Post by AriadosMan on Oct 30, 2009 14:30:35 GMT -5
The only reason I used the word "petty" was because it seems dangerous to want to change the infrastructure of a company just to eliminate one guy you don't like. I am not a Russo mark by any means but I warned earlier that getting rid of him in exchange of a short-term ratings boost from Hogan is quite perilous, especially given the fact that we know what happens when Hogan is given lots of contract leverage. NO WRESTLER should have that level of control. It leads to incredibly stale, predictable booking. Unless we want a return to the "All Jeff Jarrett, all the time" style, except with Hogan instead of JJ.
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Post by Robbymac on Oct 30, 2009 14:45:15 GMT -5
And you seriously think Bischoff and Hogan would be better? Remember, they were just as involved in WCW's fall as Russo was. I never said that. I'm only pointing out that calling Storm "petty" might be innacurate. While I agree with your sentiment, and do believe Bischoff was better than he got credit for, both the Triple H led '98 version of DX and The Rock led version of the Nation were midcard stables and far more over than the Flock ever was. You make a fair point. I'd be willing to grant DX was more over as midcarders than the Flock. But I'm not so sure the Nation ever was, unless you count the months just prior to the Rock's push--in which case the remaining Nation members were really only over by standing next to the Rock. Still and all, I was just trying to say Eric's not a "one trick pony." I'm not saying he's perfect (Lord knows, he isn't), just that he did a lot more than create the nWo. Couldn't you say the same thing about the other members of the Flock as you could about the other members of the Nation? Weren't they just over by virtue of being with Raven? |
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Post by AriadosMan on Oct 30, 2009 14:47:00 GMT -5
Couldn't you say the same thing about the other members of the Flock as you could about the other members of the Nation? Weren't they just over by virtue of being with Raven? Pretty much. Nobody cared about Kidman and Saturn while they were in the Flock. And the other guys who left it didn't have particularly good careers. |
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Post by Spudz on Oct 30, 2009 15:41:56 GMT -5
The video clip provided earlier that proved Vince was already laying the foundation for the Mr. McMahon long before Eric Bischoff was doing his "evil owner" shtick cannot be denied either... but you denied it anyway, so I guess we'll see where this goes. I never denied anything, just pointed out the fact that Vince HIMSELF says the Mr. MacMahon character was a result of the Montreal screwjob which happened in Nov. 97, when Eric Bischoff and the nWo were the most over heels in the business. It's so bizarre the way Vince's supporters disregard Vince's own words when they don't like what he says. Another example: Vince has said over and over "WWE isn't wrestling. It's sports entertainment." I agree. But whenever I say "WWE isn't wrestling, so you can't really compare it to TNA/ROH" WWE fans get angry with me. For AGREEING with Vince. When I quote Vince directly saying"WWE isn't wrestling" they're just like, "Whatever he's just saying that." TNA is Sports Entertainment too.. They have been since they been on SpikeTV, With Russo currently writing the shows its hard to argue it isn't with all the skits they do. Hogan even said that he was going to make TNA the #1 Sports Entertainment company at the press conference. WWE is also wrestling not just sports entertainment, I have seen several good to great wrestling matches from WWE this year alone. So I think it safe to say we can compare WWE & TNA when it comes to both "Sports Entertainment" and "Professional Wrestling" |
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