andrew8798
FANatic
on 24/7 this month
Posts: 106,084
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Post by andrew8798 on Jan 6, 2010 19:09:09 GMT -5
Sources tell Buster Olney of ESPN.com that the Yankees and Mets are not in on Cuban left-hander Aroldis Chapman.
Telling. According to one talent evaluator, he expects the bidding for the 21-year-old southpaw to go to $20 million. That's nearly half of what we expected months ago, but according to Olney, there is concern in some quarters that he'd be better suited as a reliever
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,585
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jan 6, 2010 21:17:08 GMT -5
The Pete Rose deal is relly stupid. What he did on the field has NOTHING to do with his gambling off of it. The guy was a revolutionary hitter. He should be recognized as such
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Post by ani on Jan 6, 2010 21:21:43 GMT -5
The Pete Rose deal is relly stupid. What he did on the field has NOTHING to do with his gambling off of it. The guy was a revolutionary hitter. He should be recognized as such They'll let him in...once he's six feet under. I really hate Baseball sometimes ![:P](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/tongue.png)
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H-Fist
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,485
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Post by H-Fist on Jan 6, 2010 22:26:07 GMT -5
Why is it wrong to turn in an empty ballot if the voter believes that none of the players on the ballot belong in the Hall of Fame? I can see an argument that says the Hall is crowded with history's 'very good,' and at some point the 'very good' need to be excluded as opposed to voted in according to some antiquated principle. I'm far from a defender of the current voting process (the veterans' committee is even more of a joke, as far as I'm concerned). But a blank ballot can also simply mean "No one deserves it." To be perfectly honest, I am a true-life supporter of Bill Simmons' 2002 " Pyramid Scheme" for the Baseball Hall of Fame. Rebuild the thing as a literal pyramid, with each higher level being a higher caliber of player. I think that lowering the bar for a first-floor "Hall of Very, Very Good" - generally those players who will linger on the ballot between 50-65% for years - would accommodate a lot of the problems. Take your Lee Smiths and Andre Dawsons and Bert Blylevens and Jack Morrises and the like, and put them on Level One. Show the visitors to the Hall what the baseline is for being included in the first place. Borderline Hall of Famers go here. Level Two is definite Hall of Famers who just...lack something that would put them in a level above. His examples include Puckett, Sandberg, Yount and Glavine. I believe that 300 wins post-1980 is that "something special" in an of itself, so Tommy jumps. Level Three is the No Doubters, the guys who were The Best at their position for a significant portion of their career, but lacking a certain "greatness" needed for L4. Simmons uses Maddux, Joe Morgan, Ozzie Smith, Alomar, and the Big Unit. Again, the 300-game winners mean so much now, so I'd rethink their spot. And I think Ryno, Robbie and Morgan belong together. But this'd be the elite either way. Level Four is still more selective. This is the cutoff for the guys you talk about in any discussion of the best _____ ever. Of course, written in 2002, he says Maddux and Johnson had a chance. 3000 hits/300 wins/500 homers is a part of it. Transcendence, really, is the name of the game. Simmons tosses out Ripken and Koufax as well as Bonds and Clemens, though the latter two may be just as blackballed as McGwire. Level Five is what Simmons calls "The Pantheon:" It'd be pretty easy to have Hall of Fame voting if the baseline criteria allowed for these borderline players who by all means had memorable and significant careers without the Greatness of a definite Hall of Fame. Why should we argue about if they belong when we could more fruitfully argue about where they belong? Level 4 guys - Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey for sure; Pujols realistically needs 4 more seasons so that he gets to 500 homers, then he'll be up here; Glavine's 300 wins might merit consideration given his career's timeframe; A-Rod and Jeter are closing in; Clemens, Bonds and Sosa obviously have the numbers, but their giant foreheads preclude them. Level 3 guys - Pujols, A-Rod and Jeter for now; Vladimir Guerrero, Ichiro, Schilling and Pedro Level 2 guys - Bagwell, Chipper, [Thome, Sheffield --> 500 homer test cases, as Palmeiro will be next year; also the combo of steroid era numbers AND DH-positional stats will be considered; so they could either be 3s or 1s, really], Mussina (borderline 2-3 guy - he's an "oh right, him...wow, didn't know he was that good" guy) Level 1 guys - Biggio, Helton, Oswalt
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Post by Insomniac on Jan 6, 2010 22:38:40 GMT -5
Why is it wrong to turn in an empty ballot if the voter believes that none of the players on the ballot belong in the Hall of Fame? Are there really voters out there that don't think Robbie Alomar and Barry Larkin aret deserving of being enshrined at Cooperstown? I think their numbers and career accolades speak for themselves. I'm all for people having different opinions and feeling differently, but I'd have to hear one hell of a compelling argument against those guys to think differently. And I don't agree at all with any kind of pyramid scheme that puts one player above another. Too gimmicky.
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BRV
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants him some Taco Flavored Kisses.
Posts: 17,094
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Post by BRV on Jan 6, 2010 22:40:06 GMT -5
Level 2 guys - Bagwell, Chipper, [Thome, Sheffield --> 500 homer test cases, as Palmeiro will be next year; also the combo of steroid era numbers AND DH-positional stats will be considered; so they could either be 3s or 1s, really], Mussina (borderline 2-3 guy - he's an "oh right, him...wow, didn't know he was that good" guy) Level 1 guys - Biggio, Helton, Oswalt I would argue that Craig Biggio is more of a sure-thing than Jeff Bagwell, or at least that he's more deserving. Biggio played four different positions (C, CF, 2B and LF) exceptionally well, he has almost 700 more hits and he went to three more All-Star Games. Sure Bagwell was more of a feared power hitter, but Biggio was the consummate professional and he's arguably the most underrated player in modern baseball history.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,585
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jan 6, 2010 22:55:32 GMT -5
Why is it wrong to turn in an empty ballot if the voter believes that none of the players on the ballot belong in the Hall of Fame? A) Because I cant fathom any supposedly intelligent baseball writer not believing that ANY of the names a given year are not worthy B) Because it smacks of grandstanding. It comes off to everyone as a "look at me, Im making a statement! I'm important!" For example: talk radio and tv talking heads will now spend time talking about Marriotti NOT voting for anyone.
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Post by ani on Jan 6, 2010 23:09:11 GMT -5
Why is it wrong to turn in an empty ballot if the voter believes that none of the players on the ballot belong in the Hall of Fame? I can see an argument that says the Hall is crowded with history's 'very good,' and at some point the 'very good' need to be excluded as opposed to voted in according to some antiquated principle. I'm far from a defender of the current voting process (the veterans' committee is even more of a joke, as far as I'm concerned). But a blank ballot can also simply mean "No one deserves it." To be perfectly honest, I am a true-life supporter of Bill Simmons' 2002 " Pyramid Scheme" for the Baseball Hall of Fame. Rebuild the thing as a literal pyramid, with each higher level being a higher caliber of player. I think that lowering the bar for a first-floor "Hall of Very, Very Good" - generally those players who will linger on the ballot between 50-65% for years - would accommodate a lot of the problems. Take your Lee Smiths and Andre Dawsons and Bert Blylevens and Jack Morrises and the like, and put them on Level One. Show the visitors to the Hall what the baseline is for being included in the first place. Borderline Hall of Famers go here. Level Two is definite Hall of Famers who just...lack something that would put them in a level above. His examples include Puckett, Sandberg, Yount and Glavine. I believe that 300 wins post-1980 is that "something special" in an of itself, so Tommy jumps. Level Three is the No Doubters, the guys who were The Best at their position for a significant portion of their career, but lacking a certain "greatness" needed for L4. Simmons uses Maddux, Joe Morgan, Ozzie Smith, Alomar, and the Big Unit. Again, the 300-game winners mean so much now, so I'd rethink their spot. And I think Ryno, Robbie and Morgan belong together. But this'd be the elite either way. Level Four is still more selective. This is the cutoff for the guys you talk about in any discussion of the best _____ ever. Of course, written in 2002, he says Maddux and Johnson had a chance. 3000 hits/300 wins/500 homers is a part of it. Transcendence, really, is the name of the game. Simmons tosses out Ripken and Koufax as well as Bonds and Clemens, though the latter two may be just as blackballed as McGwire. Level Five is what Simmons calls "The Pantheon:" It'd be pretty easy to have Hall of Fame voting if the baseline criteria allowed for these borderline players who by all means had memorable and significant careers without the Greatness of a definite Hall of Fame. Why should we argue about if they belong when we could more fruitfully argue about where they belong? Level 4 guys - Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson, Ken Griffey for sure; Pujols realistically needs 4 more seasons so that he gets to 500 homers, then he'll be up here; Glavine's 300 wins might merit consideration given his career's timeframe; A-Rod and Jeter are closing in; Clemens, Bonds and Sosa obviously have the numbers, but their giant foreheads preclude them. Level 3 guys - Pujols, A-Rod and Jeter for now; Vladimir Guerrero, Ichiro, Schilling and Pedro Level 2 guys - Bagwell, Chipper, [Thome, Sheffield --> 500 homer test cases, as Palmeiro will be next year; also the combo of steroid era numbers AND DH-positional stats will be considered; so they could either be 3s or 1s, really], Mussina (borderline 2-3 guy - he's an "oh right, him...wow, didn't know he was that good" guy) Level 1 guys - Biggio, Helton, Oswalt Absolutely NO WAY did Bagwell have a better career then Biggio. I'm not even sure Bagwell is a HOF'er. I don't think Helton or Oswalt are going either.
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Post by Insomniac on Jan 6, 2010 23:24:02 GMT -5
I think Helton can get in. His numbers are skewed because of the Coors Effect, but even on the road he had a near-.900 OPS (.294/.395/.489), and he was a pretty damn good glove. Oswalt's numbers are solid (3.23 ERA, 1.20 WHIP, 3.58 K:BB ratio), and he was top-5 in the Cy Young voting five times, but it seems like he's on the decline. His next five years are make or break.
Unfortunately for both of them, HOF voters are infatuated with counting categories (HR, RBI, Hits, Wins) and neither really impress all that much in that area. I'd say Helton has a much better chance than Oswalt at this point.
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H-Fist
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,485
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Post by H-Fist on Jan 7, 2010 0:02:48 GMT -5
I was just throwing my quick-list together, really. I look at Bagwell and see a player whose degenerative shoulder condition severely hampered him and shortened his career. He wasn't Puckett-levels of great, surely, but it's worth considering he could have played another 4 years as a .275/.375/.500 guy. He had an MVP, a GG, 4 ASGs, 3 SS's, a career triple-slash of .297/.408/.540, played over 2100 games, 488 doubles and 449 homers (injury prevented 500), two 30 HR/30 Steal campaigns, 4200 career total bases, 1500 RBI, and BaseballReference.com's "similar batters" top 3 are Chipper, The Big Hurt and Carlos Delgado.
I also really respect what Biggio did. I should definitely have put him up as a "2" for sure. I brain-cramped on how good he was, to be honest. But still, his triple-slash was .281/.363/.433 - appreciably lower than Bagwell. Both are Hall-of-Famers. Let's bump him up, and toss Delgado on the maybe pile given the devaluation of numbers in this era. Great numbers, but it's so easy to produce in the AL compared to the NL (a cleanup hitter has the pitcher's spot ahead of him 3 times a game in the NL, as opposed to a position player in the AL, where CD spent 9 of his 13 full seasons).
Something about Biggio and Bagwell say "Hall of Fame," while Delgado says "yeah, he was really really good but..." Larkin, in my mind, should have gone in this year as well as Alomar. And Omar Vizquel better get enshrined, too. I say Oswalt as an example of someone who exemplifies 2000s-onward pitchers who merit consideration. He's 137-70 (.662) in his career with a low ERA and WHIP and hurt in the win category by the specialization of the bullpen and the apparently increasing fragility of the arm (Orel Hershiser argues that pitchers used to last a lot longer because they could sort of rest when they faced the bottom third of most lineups; frankly, shortstops and catchers used to suck across the board as hitters with rare exceptions like Fisk; they weren't going full-bore all the time in terms of speed or stuff, in the bigs or at lower levels). You could sub Sabathia (136-81, .627) or even Mark Buerhle if he throws a third no-hitter. The standards for 2000-forward starting pitching has to be based on a weird combo of SABR stats and gut feel. If a pitcher goes 8+ innings a start, his win tally will generally reflect his performance given a league-average offense. But cut that down to 6.1 innings per start, and the reliability of wins (and ERA and Ks and ...) goes down the tubes. There is no way that a Great Closer is worth the same as a Great Starting Pitcher. Roy Oswalt or Billy Wagner? Johan Santana or K-Rod? Gotta go for 195 innings as opposed to 70 in almost all cases.
I also think that the Hall of Fame should offer a full-on era-to-era separation that the current ballot (or thereabouts) delineates. Guys whose careers were made in the steroid era have numbers that aren't worth the same in comparison to those of (using Cubs for the hell of it) Ferguson Jenkins and Ernie Banks, just as those players' power and games pitched numbers are so different from those of the pre-modern era. The "Modern Era" went from 1900 to 1997. From 1998 onward, the game changed.
And for the love of all things good - JAY MARIOTTI HAS NO BUSINESS WITH A BALLOT.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2010 13:38:52 GMT -5
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Steveweiser
Dalek
Mickie Mickie You're So Fine... Hey Mickie!
THE GRAPS
Posts: 50,249
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Post by Steveweiser on Jan 7, 2010 13:51:39 GMT -5
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Post by ani on Jan 7, 2010 14:06:03 GMT -5
Yeah...no. We already have the World classic, don't do another one. These guys are going to be playing 12 months a year soon if this keep up.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2010 14:20:34 GMT -5
Rangers sign Matt Brown Jays claim Brian Bocock off waivers A's sign Jack Cust
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Post by Tyfo on Jan 7, 2010 14:27:27 GMT -5
Enrique Rojas of ESPN.com reports that the Rangers offered free agent outfielder-designated hitter Vladimir Guerrero a one-year, $7 million contract.
SIGN DAMNIT!
saveusvlad.27
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Franchise
Hank Scorpio
No you didn't.
Ronnie Garvin, you idiot! I like steak, not soup, Ronnie Garvin!
Posts: 6,879
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Post by Franchise on Jan 7, 2010 14:58:29 GMT -5
Yeah...no. We already have the World classic, don't do another one. These guys are going to be playing 12 months a year soon if this keep up. I'm gonna have to disagree with you, good sir. I think it's a good idea, and won't add too much more time to the schedule. The only issue is where said series will be played. I'm not sure what the weather is like in Japan in November, but in most places in the US it starts getting mighty chilly by the time the World Series is over. They would have to figure out a fair location to play the games, without going back and forth from the USA to Japan. Other than that issue, yeah, I think it's cool.
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The Line
Patti Mayonnaise
Real Name: Bumkiss. Stanley Bumkiss.
Peanut Butter & JAAAAAMMMM!
Posts: 36,698
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Post by The Line on Jan 7, 2010 15:30:35 GMT -5
Yeah...no. We already have the World classic, don't do another one. These guys are going to be playing 12 months a year soon if this keep up. I'm gonna have to disagree with you, good sir. I think it's a good idea, and won't add too much more time to the schedule. The only issue is where said series will be played. I'm not sure what the weather is like in Japan in November, but in most places in the US it starts getting mighty chilly by the time the World Series is over. They would have to figure out a fair location to play the games, without going back and forth from the USA to Japan. Other than that issue, yeah, I think it's cool. Quite a few of the Japanese teams play in domed stadiums(or similar). At least more than American teams. And off-topic, but dang, I didn't realize how awesome it must have been for Lincecum to pitch with The Big Unit last year(For those who don't know, Lincecum is from Bellevue, Wa(which, anymore, is basically just an extension of Seattle). So he basically got to pitch with someone who I can assume is his hero(He's only a few years older than me, and believe me, if you were a "normal" boy in the state of Washington in the 90's, your hero was either Griffey or Johnson).
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Lino
Samurai Cop
We are one.
Posts: 2,301
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Post by Lino on Jan 7, 2010 16:08:17 GMT -5
Royals sign 19 year old Cuban LHP Noel Arguelles to a 5 year deal worth 7 mil.
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Post by Tyfo on Jan 7, 2010 17:19:46 GMT -5
Royals sign 19 year old Cuban LHP Noel Arguelles to a 5 year deal worth 7 mil. Poor guy. Defects out of Cuba to get a chance in the US and gets conned into a deal with the Royals. Whoever his agent is, fire him.
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Post by Drillbit Taylor on Jan 7, 2010 17:40:30 GMT -5
Royals sign 19 year old Cuban LHP Noel Arguelles to a 5 year deal worth 7 mil. Poor guy. Defects out of Cuba to get a chance in the US and gets conned into a deal with the Royals. Whoever his agent is, fire him. Royals Owner-Remember the music, beaches, warm sun, women in bikinis, fresh seafood etc that you had in Cuba? Well we have none of that.
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