Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 42,388
|
Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jan 5, 2010 13:48:24 GMT -5
Hey Paul Jay, you know that documentary you've been doing on me for the past year? Turns out I'm leaving the WWF. You probably aren't interested in that footage. My last night in the Fed I spent the last 14 years in.
Vince had previously given Hart's camera crew permission to be there backstage. There footage looks "convenient" because you've never seen what wasn't in the movie.
Why have so many family members worked for Vince over the years. Because, for better or worse, WWE is the stage for wrestling. Yeah, there's other places, but one could be a pro hockey player without being in the NHL too, but the NHL is The Show and so too is the WWE, The Show. It's where you go.
-----------
Stampede was operating about, oh, 5 years or so ago. Not sure of the time line, but Harry Smith was working there when he signed with WWE. So whenever that was. No idea if Harts were involved and it didn't last long, but Stampede kicks up every once in a blue moon and runs a few shows until the cash runs out.
|
|
Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 42,388
|
Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jan 5, 2010 13:49:32 GMT -5
Stampede has been dead for years. Stu sold it to Vince a very, very long time ago. You do make a good argument though. However, I still maintain it was legit, right up there with Backlund losing the title in '83. Backlund losing the title was a work wasnt it? Backlund said he would only lose the belt to a great amateur wrestler. Iron Sheik was it. And for Vince To put the strap on the sheik as a transitional champ and go with Hogan as the mean from 84 on? Yes, Backlund refused to put Hogan over. In someone's book, maybe Heenan's, they mention Backlund had no idea the towel would be thrown in on him. N
|
|
|
Post by foreveryoung on Jan 5, 2010 13:49:33 GMT -5
But the same can be said on the flip side as well. How was A&E able to get so much important footage? They seemed to have been in the right place at the right time for every important phone call, conversation, etc. that he, his wife, and other participants had leading up to, including, and even after the screw job. Whenever someone left the WWE for WCW, their importance to the company was downplayed on their way out (usually, in the form of being buried to some degree or another). Yet in this case, Vince did something that was guaranteed to draw tons of attention to Bret and how WCW would handle him and the Montreal incident. Why would Vince do something that had the potential to generate so much attention for their competitor? Why weren't lawsuits filed? Vince might have been able to get Bret for assault, but Bret had a "reasonable creative control" clause in his contract and there were still weeks before the contract expired. Bret could have potentially won a breach-of-contract lawsuit that would have easily trumped any assault charges that Vince could have filed. He *might* have also been able to get defamation of character based on the skits that they did with the midget later on. Why have so many members of the family been so willing to work with Vince since the incident? I understand people like Owen still had contractual obligations to fulfill, but why the hell would the ones that signed up later (up to and including ones like Nattie and DH) be so willing to work for someone who already (repeatedly) screwed their family? What we saw on TV last night proved nothing one way or the other. If it was real, any issues between Bret, Shawn, Hunter, and Vince are being (or have been) handled behind the scenes. Plus, Bret and Shawn (apparently) hated each other for years before Montreal, yet were always still able to put on great matches and work well togther. Why would last night be any different? Why would Bret even want to come back? I'm not saying he'd need to dwell on Montreal until he dies, but at the same time, I wouldn't want to go back to work for a guy who screwed me so hard the first time around. I've heard reports that Bret is "bored", which is understandable. But why not work with TNA or ROH? Or Stampede (is that still in business)? Stampede has been dead for years. Stu sold it to Vince a very, very long time ago. You do make a good argument though. However, I still maintain it was legit, right up there with Backlund losing the title in '83. Backlund losing the title was a work wasnt it? Backlund said he would only lose the belt to a great amateur wrestler. Iron Sheik was it. And for Vince To put the strap on the sheik as a transitional champ and go with Hogan as the man from 84 on? Vince Sr was the one who wanted Backlund to be champion. But by 83-84 Jr. began taking over and took the business to the entertainment larger than life characters hence the beginning of Hulk
|
|
|
Post by The Booty Disciple on Jan 5, 2010 14:15:58 GMT -5
Hey Paul Jay, you know that documentary you've been doing on me for the past year? Turns out I'm leaving the WWF. You probably aren't interested in that footage. My last night in the Fed I spent the last 14 years in. Vince had previously given Hart's camera crew permission to be there backstage. There footage looks "convenient" because you've never seen what wasn't in the movie. Why have so many family members worked for Vince over the years. Because, for better or worse, WWE is the stage for wrestling. Yeah, there's other places, but one could be a pro hockey player without being in the NHL too, but the NHL is The Show and so too is the WWE, The Show. It's where you go. ----------- Stampede was operating about, oh, 5 years or so ago. Not sure of the time line, but Harry Smith was working there when he signed with WWE. So whenever that was. No idea if Harts were involved and it didn't last long, but Stampede kicks up every once in a blue moon and runs a few shows until the cash runs out. Are we talking about the same Stampede? Not doubting you, just, I recall in Bret's DVD him talking about Stu selling Stampede to McMahon. EDIT: Upon further research, you are correct. Ross Hart reopened it in 1999. Strangely enough, Stampede ran a show in April of last year, in Calgary, of all places.
|
|
|
Post by romafan87 on Jan 5, 2010 15:14:59 GMT -5
Why would it not be a work? It's pro wrestling.
|
|
|
Post by The Booty Disciple on Jan 6, 2010 3:39:50 GMT -5
Why would it not be a work? It's pro wrestling. The facts stand against it, to start with. 12 years of working the fans, after Vince won the war? What sense does that make? WCW folded in '01, not in '09. What purpose would keeping this thing going past that serve?
|
|
|
Post by Janitor From Mars on Jan 6, 2010 3:45:07 GMT -5
It was not a work. There's just no way it could be.
It would be a hell of a terrible business decision to work fans like that and knowing how much Vince likes to gamble, I don't think he'd look this game horse in the face.
|
|
Dave at the Movies
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
VINTAGE D-DAY DAVE! Always cranking dat thing.
Posts: 18,228
|
Post by Dave at the Movies on Jan 6, 2010 5:48:44 GMT -5
It is amazing to me how people can possibly think that it was a work. Absolutely amazing. I'd believe JFK getting shot by aliens before believing the whole thing was set up and dragged out for almost fifteen years.
|
|
|
Post by bitteroldman on Jan 6, 2010 7:59:18 GMT -5
"How was A&E able to get so much important footage? They seemed to have been in the right place at the right time for every important phone call, conversation, etc. that he, his wife, and other participants had leading up to, including, and even after the screw job."
More evidence that it's a work, this is just too convenient.
"Whenever someone left the WWE for WCW, their importance to the company was downplayed on their way out (usually, in the form of being buried to some degree or another). Yet in this case, Vince did something that was guaranteed to draw tons of attention to Bret and how WCW would handle him and the Montreal incident. Why would Vince do something that had the potential to generate so much attention for their competitor?"
Vince repaid a favor to Brett. Brett had signed a long term contract, somehing like 10 years at $1 million a year which Brett voided at Vince's request.
"Why weren't lawsuits filed? Vince might have been able to get Bret for assault, but Bret had a "reasonable creative control" clause in his contract and there were still weeks before the contract expired. Bret could have potentially won a breach-of-contract lawsuit that would have easily trumped any assault charges that Vince could have filed. He *might* have also been able to get defamation of character based on the skits that they did with the midget later on."
The assault was part of the work. Brett had no reason to claim breech of contract as the result of winning such a lawsuit would be to nullify a contract that was expired or about to expire. The midget was parody, which is protected by freedom of speech.
"Why have so many members of the family been so willing to work with Vince since the incident? I understand people like Owen still had contractual obligations to fulfill, but why the hell would the ones that signed up later (up to and including ones like Nattie and DH) be so willing to work for someone who already (repeatedly) screwed their family?"
Cause they know it was a work and/or they thought this was the way to make the most money.
"What we saw on TV last night proved nothing one way or the other. If it was real, any issues between Bret, Shawn, Hunter, and Vince are being (or have been) handled behind the scenes. Plus, Bret and Shawn (apparently) hated each other for years before Montreal, yet were always still able to put on great matches and work well togther. Why would last night be any different?"
More evidence that this was a work by all parties involved.
"Why would Bret even want to come back? I'm not saying he'd need to dwell on Montreal until he dies, but at the same time, I wouldn't want to go back to work for a guy who screwed me so hard the first time around. I've heard reports that Bret is "bored", which is understandable. But why not work with TNA or ROH? Or Stampede (is that still in business)?"
He needs the money after going thru a divorce, and more evidence that he really wasn't screwed.
|
|
|
Post by Piccolo on Jan 6, 2010 10:26:13 GMT -5
Hasn't Meltzer apparently said that we'll find out what really happened once someone "close" to the events that night passes away? Has he, really? That would be further evidence of it being a work, for me. Everyone asks why they would draw it out for twelve years. My question would be, why the hell not? Kayfabe was falling apart at a rapid pace back then, and is essentially dead today. For people who grew up with that as the backbone of professional wrestling, I imagine it would be extremely tempting to see how long they could keep the facade going for the fans... to see if it's really true that nothing can be a work anymore without someone finding out, or whether they could pull the wool over everyone's eyes as long as they were committed to it. It would be a terrific accomplishment, and the hope would be, I imagine, that their legacy wouldn't be that they lied to the fans, but that they managed to preserve one little piece of the magic... they managed to keep one thing real for the fans, over all those years. I'd be pretty excited to do it, if I were them.
|
|
|
Post by angryfan on Jan 6, 2010 10:36:03 GMT -5
Hasn't Meltzer apparently said that we'll find out what really happened once someone "close" to the events that night passes away? Has he, really? That would be further evidence of it being a work, for me. Everyone asks why they would draw it out for twelve years. My question would be, why the hell not? Kayfabe was falling apart at a rapid pace back then, and is essentially dead today. For people who grew up with that as the backbone of professional wrestling, I imagine it would be extremely tempting to see how long they could keep the facade going for the fans... to see if it's really true that nothing can be a work anymore without someone finding out, or whether they could pull the wool over everyone's eyes as long as they were committed to it. It would be a terrific accomplishment, and the hope would be, I imagine, that their legacy wouldn't be that they lied to the fans, but that they managed to preserve one little piece of the magic... they managed to keep one thing real for the fans, over all those years. I'd be pretty excited to do it, if I were them. You hit the nail, my friend. This was Lawler/Kaufman to a higher level, and they didn't break kayfabe on THAT feud for twenty years.
|
|
|
Post by The Booty Disciple on Jan 7, 2010 18:52:50 GMT -5
Has he, really? That would be further evidence of it being a work, for me. Everyone asks why they would draw it out for twelve years. My question would be, why the hell not? Kayfabe was falling apart at a rapid pace back then, and is essentially dead today. For people who grew up with that as the backbone of professional wrestling, I imagine it would be extremely tempting to see how long they could keep the facade going for the fans... to see if it's really true that nothing can be a work anymore without someone finding out, or whether they could pull the wool over everyone's eyes as long as they were committed to it. It would be a terrific accomplishment, and the hope would be, I imagine, that their legacy wouldn't be that they lied to the fans, but that they managed to preserve one little piece of the magic... they managed to keep one thing real for the fans, over all those years. I'd be pretty excited to do it, if I were them. You hit the nail, my friend. This was Lawler/Kaufman to a higher level, and they didn't break kayfabe on THAT feud for twenty years. Except that'd be a logical thing to do in the interest of pro wrestling's history. Logic, preserving pro wrestling history, and Vince McMahon don't generally go together in the same sentence. Am definitely enjoying the discussion about it though. Some interesting arguments, in a conspiracy theory sort of way, are definitely being brought to my attention. I maintain it wasn't a work, but hey, there's never anything wrong with talking about it and exchanging ideas.
|
|
|
Post by Lionheart on Jan 7, 2010 18:54:00 GMT -5
It's still (not) real to me, damnit!
|
|
Dave at the Movies
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
VINTAGE D-DAY DAVE! Always cranking dat thing.
Posts: 18,228
|
Post by Dave at the Movies on Jan 7, 2010 19:51:40 GMT -5
You hit the nail, my friend. This was Lawler/Kaufman to a higher level, and they didn't break kayfabe on THAT feud for twenty years. Except that'd be a logical thing to do in the interest of pro wrestling's history. Logic, preserving pro wrestling history, and Vince McMahon don't generally go together in the same sentence. Am definitely enjoying the discussion about it though. Some interesting arguments, in a conspiracy theory sort of way, are definitely being brought to my attention. I maintain it wasn't a work, but hey, there's never anything wrong with talking about it and exchanging ideas. I agree with you. There is just no way it was a work. Keeping up something that long with no payoff? Nuh uh. It was real. Everyone in the wrestling industry has said it was real. The documentary guys got it all on tape because they had been following Bret for like a week. It was his thing and he got permission for them to be in the locker room. if it had really been a work someone would have spilled the beans by now. There is just no way Hart would have done this voluntarily. it pretty much killed his career for the most part.
|
|
|
Post by The Booty Disciple on Jan 7, 2010 19:58:26 GMT -5
Except that'd be a logical thing to do in the interest of pro wrestling's history. Logic, preserving pro wrestling history, and Vince McMahon don't generally go together in the same sentence. Am definitely enjoying the discussion about it though. Some interesting arguments, in a conspiracy theory sort of way, are definitely being brought to my attention. I maintain it wasn't a work, but hey, there's never anything wrong with talking about it and exchanging ideas. I agree with you. There is just no way it was a work. Keeping up something that long with no payoff? Nuh uh. It was real. Everyone in the wrestling industry has said it was real. The documentary guys got it all on tape because they had been following Bret for like a week. It was his thing and he got permission for them to be in the locker room. if it had really been a work someone would have spilled the beans by now. There is just no way Hart would have done this voluntarily. it pretty much killed his career for the most part. Just to play devil's advocate... When he got WCW, it was headed into decline. Yes, he wore the strap twice, and the U.S. Title (and cut that hilarious promo that we, here at the 'Crap still talk about today), but it wasn't like he was headed to the company that was on the rise. But you're right...it still makes absolutely no sense to keep up the work, particularly knowing Vince McMahon's penchant for illogical decisions, to maintain it 8-9 years AFTER he won the WCW/WWF war.
|
|
|
Post by nerdinitupagain on Jan 7, 2010 21:38:49 GMT -5
Occam's Razor - The simplest explanation is more often than not the right one. Everyone points to McMahon screwing Bret legit as the simplest, however... when it comes down to it, it was a pro-wrestling show with pro-wrestlers and a pro-wrestling booker. Why would you not by default think it was a work? Because other pro-wrestlers have said so since?
Seriously go to a friend of yours that does not like pro-wrestling or doesn't watch it. Explain the Screwjob to them.. and tell them that it was all real and legit. They will laugh at you because they are thinking with common sense.
It was two guys who grew up on pro-wrestling and the magic of kayfabe. They knew kayfabe was dieing, they were both smart. These were guys that knew that when fans truly believed, they were better marks for an angle.
It was the last great act of kayfabe. The two guys that came up with it are the only two people that know that for sure.
|
|
|
Post by valiens on Jan 7, 2010 22:09:14 GMT -5
If it was a work, McMahon would have bought the rights to "Wrestling With Shadows" and released it years ago.
|
|
|
Post by nerdinitupagain on Jan 7, 2010 22:23:35 GMT -5
If it was a work, McMahon would have bought the rights to "Wrestling With Shadows" and released it years ago. Why? If it was a work tried to look like a shoot, he'd want to distance himself from anything that said otherwise.
|
|
|
Post by Citizen Snips on Jan 7, 2010 22:52:02 GMT -5
I can just imagine the three of them sitting Taker down one day to explain to him that it was all a work, like a kid finding out about Santa Claus...only the kid starts taping his fists after hearing it.....
|
|
randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
|
Post by randomranter on Jan 7, 2010 23:31:55 GMT -5
I agree with you. There is just no way it was a work. Keeping up something that long with no payoff? Nuh uh. There are a ton of reasons to believe that it was real, and there are a just as many valid reasons to believe it was a work. I would say the chances of it being a work are "unlikely", but there are too many questions about the whole incident to entirely write off the possibility. There's a thing about "following him around" for a week and conveniently being in the right place at the right time for every little conversation that they got. Further, we've had other documentaries on what goes on backstage in the WWE, and when it came time to sit down and do business, the camera crews were all kicked out -- except in this case, where it would be more important than ever to make sure the cameras weren't around. Yet they were allowed to keep filiming. No, bad booking by WCW and a kick to the head killed his career. At the time of the incident, Bret was pretty much being put into a better financial position than he ever had been in his life up to that point. At that point, he had no reason to believe that moving to WCW would be the career-killer it ended up being. The screwjob actually helped his career. Normally, when you leave the WWE, you end up going out being buried in some form and leaving with as little momentum as possible. In Bret's case, he left with a LOT of momentum heading into WCW, as fans were wondering how WCW was going to follow up the montreal incident. Real or work, the screwjob ended up being a win-win for everybody involved. HHH got bumped into the main event, Michaels became an even bigger heel, it led to the birth of "Mr. McMahon", which led into the Austin/McMahon feud, it gave WCW a boost and an instant storyline for Bret, and it let Bret leave the company in a way that gave him momentum, instead of the usual burial that most wrestlers got.
|
|