Brain Of F'n J
Hank Scorpio
Not that cool enough to have one of these....wait.
We Discodians must stick apart.
Posts: 6,890
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 10, 2010 16:33:13 GMT -5
Understood. What do you think of my Jake suggestion above? Has prospects. Need to do more research. What happened or was supposed to that fateful night? Hogan appeared on The Snake Pit. It was to test the waters for a Hogan/Snake feud. The crowd split, some chanting for Hogan, some chanting for the DDT. They did the segment, Jake went to the back, and Vince said "I'm sorry, we can't do the feud, not if you're getting face pops". It's in the Jake DVD, in the documentary, which I highly recommend just because. Jed Shaffer ~For the record, I don't think they would've put the belt on Jake even if the crowd had been solidly behind Hogan. They were making BANK with Hogan as champ. No need to rock the boat.
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Post by garretta on Aug 10, 2010 18:21:34 GMT -5
I actually agree with Jed, but putting the belt on Jake would give the senario a longer lifespan by allowing Jake to have another program or two while he was champion. It's Simon's call, though, if he should choose to do it.
I also like the Gulf War idea. The challenge would be to make it believable that Sarge would be pushed over Sting and Luger, who were the future of WCW at the time. Hogan-Warrior II is a no-brainer on the WWF side, but just for something different, I for one would like to see one of them (Simon's choice) turn heel, preferably with Heenan in the corner.
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Brain Of F'n J
Hank Scorpio
Not that cool enough to have one of these....wait.
We Discodians must stick apart.
Posts: 6,890
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 10, 2010 21:17:54 GMT -5
Oh, yeah, for RTB purposes, put the belt on Jake. That's the purpose of the column: what MIGHT have been, not would logically would've happened. That'd be boring.
Jed Shaffer ~If we go with logic, my Higher Power storyline would've ended two weeks later with Jake in rehab.
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Post by garretta on Aug 12, 2010 4:38:33 GMT -5
Just finished reading the one about the aftermath of the Montreal "non-screwjob".
It was interesting to see all the various shoes on the other feet, but I have a question: Isn't assuming that Bischoff somehow stumbled across a clue about how to run a wrestling company and more importantly, told Hogan what to do instead of the other way around, a wee bit of a stretch, especially since according to the piece WCW had its own share of missteps that were negated by the WWF's more colossal ones? Given what we know about Bischoff's relationship with Hogan, it doesn't seem logical that he'd all of a sudden find, kidnap, or otherwise appropriate a backbone and tell Hogan where to get off. I know you hate defending the logic of the pieces, Jed, but other than reversing the fortunes of the two companies, what were you thinking here? Surely Vince wouldn't have lost all of his ability to run a company overnight, even if Bret had humiliated him on national TV like he did here. I could see the rough patches, especially with Shawn being so unspeakable, but surely at some point Vince would have gone real-life Mr. McMahon on him and told him to find his smile in a hot hurry or be gone. And remember, he still had Steve Austin, whom you acknowledge was still one of the brightest stars in the business at the time this was taking place.
Maybe somebody who read this and found it to flow better than I did could explain what they liked, because I'm sort of at a loss. It was well-written, but there are just too many things I didn't understand the thinking behind. (I wasn't a regular watcher by then, but I've read enough about the events at Survivor Series and afterward to have a clue about what was going on.)
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Brain Of F'n J
Hank Scorpio
Not that cool enough to have one of these....wait.
We Discodians must stick apart.
Posts: 6,890
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 12, 2010 15:44:41 GMT -5
Just finished reading the one about the aftermath of the Montreal "non-screwjob". It was interesting to see all the various shoes on the other feet, but I have a question: Isn't assuming that Bischoff somehow stumbled across a clue about how to run a wrestling company and more importantly, told Hogan what to do instead of the other way around, a wee bit of a stretch, especially since according to the piece WCW had its own share of missteps that were negated by the WWF's more colossal ones? Given what we know about Bischoff's relationship with Hogan, it doesn't seem logical that he'd all of a sudden find, kidnap, or otherwise appropriate a backbone and tell Hogan where to get off. I know you hate defending the logic of the pieces, Jed, but other than reversing the fortunes of the two companies, what were you thinking here? Surely Vince wouldn't have lost all of his ability to run a company overnight, even if Bret had humiliated him on national TV like he did here. I could see the rough patches, especially with Shawn being so unspeakable, but surely at some point Vince would have gone real-life Mr. McMahon on him and told him to find his smile in a hot hurry or be gone. And remember, he still had Steve Austin, whom you acknowledge was still one of the brightest stars in the business at the time this was taking place. Maybe somebody who read this and found it to flow better than I did could explain what they liked, because I'm sort of at a loss. It was well-written, but there are just too many things I didn't understand the thinking behind. (I wasn't a regular watcher by then, but I've read enough about the events at Survivor Series and afterward to have a clue about what was going on.) I think the issue I have in defending these is, you seem to be looking at these as if I'm writing them as what WOULD have happened, like they're opinion pieces. They're not. It's what MIGHT have happened. And MIGHT is a huge umbrella that allows for most anything. Is it likely that this might've happened? Not very (I'll be the first to admit, some of my stories and what happens in them are downright preposterous). But hey, you never know ... WWF was bleeding money at the time. Vince didn't want to let Bret go, for business as well as personal reasons. It may have disheartened Vince. Couple that with some catastrophic injuries or talent insurrections (Shawn had already staged one in June of 1997), and it's conceivable. As for Bischoff suddenly knowing how to book? Unlikely, yes ... but if he's got Vince on the ropes and Bret's coming in having just buried Vince on national TV, maybe that would inspire Bischoff to book smarter. And while Vince had Austin, a strong face is only as good as the heel he's fighting ... would Austin have caught fire without being the everyman being screwed with by the tyrannical boss? If there's no Mr. McMahon, Austin's defiant act has no validity, no one to bounce off of, and he becomes just another obnoxious hard-ass ... he's a white Bad News Brown, in other words. So having Austin may not have mattered, if he didn't have the authority figure to bounce off of (and please don't say Commissioner Slaughter ... just ... no). The point I'm making is that the stories I wrote (and Neil and Simon do currently) aren't opinion pieces, and they aren't meant to be logical assumptions of what would have been ... only one possible outcome. They hold the same water as the alt-history fiction of guys like Harry Turtledove, or movies like White Man's Burden or Fatherland or CSA. They should have a touch of real feeling in them so you get sucked in, but never confused for anything more than a fun ride. Jed Shaffer ~Hope that didn't come off antagonistic.
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Post by garretta on Aug 12, 2010 16:34:22 GMT -5
Not at all, Jed. It's just that some of them are further off the wall than others. I have an easy time, for instance, believing that Orndorff could have been a successful WWF Champion, or DiBiase, for that matter, because we all know that they were talented enough to pull it off, but didn't. I can buy that if Tully and Arn had come back to WCW after being successful for Vince, they would be anxious to prove that they could make it without Flair, because we all know that they could have. Whether the booker chose to book it that way is another matter.
In this case, though, we've seen almost no credible evidence before, during, or since that Bischoff knows the first thing about booking successfully. I haven't seen TNA since he took over, but if even half of what people are saying is true, then he hasn't learned how even now. And the idea that he could actually find the guts to assert authority over Hogan, who by all accounts he's the world's biggest mark for, is too hard to believe even in an alternate universe.
The explanation you gave above is what I was looking for. Taken in that context, I can see how the downfall of the WWF would have built up. In fact, I wish you would have included some stuff between Austin and Sarge just to show how ludicrous it would have been. You also did a great job with the backstage politics, which has always fascinated me even when the stuff in the ring hasn't.
Maybe this piece would have been easier to understand if it had been longer, like your D-Generation X piece, which was excellent (I'll go more into detail another time). This must have been one of your first, because it was a lot shorter and less detailed than your other ones later.
I guess we just have two equally valid approaches to these: you see them as wrestling fanfic (which of course they are), while I see them as a booking exercise, kind of a "submitted for your approval" type of deal. I get that they're fun, but I get a kick out of debating the logic of them too, not just with you, but with anyone who chooses to chime in.
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Brain Of F'n J
Hank Scorpio
Not that cool enough to have one of these....wait.
We Discodians must stick apart.
Posts: 6,890
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 12, 2010 20:21:58 GMT -5
Not at all, Jed. It's just that some of them are further off the wall than others. I have an easy time, for instance, believing that Orndorff could have been a successful WWF Champion, or DiBiase, for that matter, because we all know that they were talented enough to pull it off, but didn't. I can buy that if Tully and Arn had come back to WCW after being successful for Vince, they would be anxious to prove that they could make it without Flair, because we all know that they could have. Whether the booker chose to book it that way is another matter. In this case, though, we've seen almost no credible evidence before, during, or since that Bischoff knows the first thing about booking successfully. I haven't seen TNA since he took over, but if even half of what people are saying is true, then he hasn't learned how even now. And the idea that he could actually find the guts to assert authority over Hogan, who by all accounts he's the world's biggest mark for, is too hard to believe even in an alternate universe. Hard to believe, yes, even for me. But competition does strange things to people. Especially when one's opponent is falling apart before one's very eyes. Sometimes, it might inspire someone to put their bootheel on their opponent's throat and press. Maybe Bischoff might've. Not likely. But maybe's enough for RTB to work. I'll be honest, I didn't even think about Austin/Sarge when I wrote it. Not just one of my first, THE first. And the one posted on 'Crap was a re-write of it, a director's cut of sorts to fix the original narrative, expand on a few ideas and trim up some others. The original had size limitations on the website, and on the re-write, I couldn't get past the format of the original (some kind of writer's block), so ... yeah, it could've benefited from being longer. And that's fine. I wrote RTB for two reason: I'm a wrestling fan (so, they were written for me, primarily), and because a lot of moments in wrestling made me wonder "what if?". Most of the time, I wrote the stories with little in the way of strict outlines; just the necessary historical research (which was never infallible) and a brief idea of some plot points. That way, it was a surprise to me, too. If others, such as yourself, take it as more of a booking exercise, that's cool; as long as readers enjoy them, that's all I care about. I just never meant for them to be serious things is all. However you get your mileage out of them is aces with me. Jed Shaffer ~The D-X story is one of my personal favorites. Wrote it in five days, no outlines whatsoever, all improv'ed on the fly. Anything I didn't know off-hand, I worked out at the moment. Wish I could've done more in that style.
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Post by garretta on Aug 12, 2010 22:29:15 GMT -5
While I've got the floor, so to speak:
As yiou know, I've done reviews of the "older" RTBs for KM. I haven't agreed with everything you've done, Jed, but I've understood most of it. There's one omission you made, however, that still perplexes me, to the point where I had to rebook it just to keep from bring driven up the wall by it. In the Orndorff story, you put the belt on Hogan after Mania IV, which would have been wonderful (no pun intended), except that that was when he was 1) filming No Holds Barred and 2) spending time with Linda and Brooke after Brooke was born. I could understand you ignoring the movie, which could have been filmed earlier or later, but why ignore Brooke's birth? Did you just forget about it, does she never exist, or are we to assume that Hogan valued having the World title more than his family at that point? I just think that that was too big an event to ignore, even in an alternate universe.
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mlsq42
Trap-Jaw
Someone online thinks I can't wrestle?
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Post by mlsq42 on Aug 13, 2010 2:40:31 GMT -5
Well, not to speak for Jed, but I think you can argue that at the time, it would be pitched as that since this is the all time final blow off, you kinda need to have Hogan go over. There's no law to state you can't then come on TV and say "Hogan's touring the world, representing the WWF" or something, give Hogan/Linda/Brooke a trip around the world to film some bits say, have Savage V Orndorff for #1 contendership and then have Hogan come back to lose the belt to however at the next SNME.
At least, that's an out I can see.
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Post by garretta on Aug 13, 2010 3:24:31 GMT -5
I rebooked it for KM, and I had Hogan win, then relinquish the belt to set up the tournament we actually had in real life, with Savage going over. He'd already pinned Orndorff twice, so he'd proven he was World title caliber. And remember, by that time Orndorff was incapable of working due to nerve damage in his neck, which happened before the scenario started, and thus should have been acknowledged by Jed in some way (maybe by saying that he was working through pain that nobody knew about because being champion meant so much to him, which would have fit Orndorff's real-life personality perfectly).
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Brain Of F'n J
Hank Scorpio
Not that cool enough to have one of these....wait.
We Discodians must stick apart.
Posts: 6,890
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 13, 2010 8:10:30 GMT -5
Honestly, I forgot about both the movie and Brooke. Simple as that.
Jed Shaffer ~That said, I'd go with Sforcina's idea: "Hogan's on a world tour!".
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Post by garretta on Aug 13, 2010 10:50:34 GMT -5
Vince probably would have too, Jed. He never acknowledged Linda or Brooke. it made it easier for the marks to believe that he just might care for Liz as more than a "sister".
(Incidentally, given how much of a real-life maniac Savage was about Liz, I wonder what he thought about Vince having an on-air orgasm every time he saw her when he was in the booth. I know he'd have never gotten rough with the boss, but it had to tear him apart deep down inside.)
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Aug 15, 2010 10:24:09 GMT -5
I rebooked it for KM, and I had Hogan win, then relinquish the belt to set up the tournament we actually had in real life, with Savage going over. He'd already pinned Orndorff twice, so he'd proven he was World title caliber. And remember, by that time Orndorff was incapable of working due to nerve damage in his neck, which happened before the scenario started, and thus should have been acknowledged by Jed in some way (maybe by saying that he was working through pain that nobody knew about because being champion meant so much to him, which would have fit Orndorff's real-life personality perfectly). they could have had Orndorff sell the belt to Dibiase. And do it just before a Hogan Orndorff match which could be used to get them off TV
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Post by garretta on Aug 15, 2010 12:28:47 GMT -5
In other words, the old bait-switch-and-flush routine, the flush being the WWF going straight down the toilet.
First of all, an Orndorff-DiBiase deal was already blocked by Jack Tunney earlier in the secenario, if you'll remember. For him all of a sudden to let something like that go through makes him corrupt, and opens up a whole other can of worms. Second, you just can't do that to the paying customers, no matter how banged up Orndorff is, unless he literally can't move. If he can work at all, you send him out there and do the best you can. Looking back on it, I probably should have redone Jed's finish so that Paul didn't have to take a piledriver, but knowing him, he'd have probably agreed to it.
You might be able to pull off your suggestion if Paul's declared unable to work a few weeks ahead of Mania IV, but if that's the case, why not book the tournament as in real life, which you'd have to anyway; Teddy wins, the match is null and void because the belt wasn't his to defend, and if Hogan wins, he's going on paternity leave/filming NHB?
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,319
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Post by mrjl on Aug 15, 2010 19:29:46 GMT -5
In other words, the old bait-switch-and-flush routine, the flush being the WWF going straight down the toilet. First of all, an Orndorff-DiBiase deal was already blocked by Jack Tunney earlier in the secenario, if you'll remember. For him all of a sudden to let something like that go through makes him corrupt, and opens up a whole other can of worms. Second, you just can't do that to the paying customers, no matter how banged up Orndorff is, unless he literally can't move. If he can work at all, you send him out there and do the best you can. Looking back on it, I probably should have redone Jed's finish so that Paul didn't have to take a piledriver, but knowing him, he'd have probably agreed to it. You might be able to pull off your suggestion if Paul's declared unable to work a few weeks ahead of Mania IV, but if that's the case, why not book the tournament as in real life, which you'd have to anyway; Teddy wins, the match is null and void because the belt wasn't his to defend, and if Hogan wins, he's going on paternity leave/filming NHB? Hmmm.... well if Tunney already prevented it then I'd have to say the only way to deal with that is to.... not write that part of the RTB
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Post by garretta on Aug 16, 2010 19:50:50 GMT -5
So if a booker can't find his way out of a problem, he just ends the program? Not acceptable. Every problem, whether in a hypothetical context like this or a real life one, has a workable solution. It's just up to someone to find it. The problem is that in the real world, especially today, there aren't that many people willing to take the time to develop and execute a good one.
Sorry, mrjl. Just using your answer to make a point, I guess. This one was messed up from the beginning, because once you put Hogan's real-life leave into the mix, everything changes; the happy ending you're building toward, the only satisfying solution, is all of a sudden worthless. Even putting the belt on Savage really doesn't hit the spot, although it's the best you could do if you wanted to keep the belt on a face, which Vince undoubtedly would have in that era. Vince had one advantage that Jed didn't; he knew Hogan was leaving, while Jed had forgotten. It would be interesting to see how he'd rewrite this one with the caveat that Hogan can't get the belt back.
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Brain Of F'n J
Hank Scorpio
Not that cool enough to have one of these....wait.
We Discodians must stick apart.
Posts: 6,890
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 16, 2010 22:02:31 GMT -5
I'd honestly go with what Sforcina said: have Hogan win, take his time off and say he's on a world promotional tour. Meanwhile, have the top contenders war with each other, so when Hogan comes back, boom, insta-contender. Not like Hogan never pulled disappearing acts before, and they didn't have monthly PPV's then. No big deal.
Jed Shaffer ~Or, put the belt on Jake. Why? Cause Jake's cool.
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Post by garretta on Aug 16, 2010 22:17:55 GMT -5
Either one of those works for me. Maybe Neil or Simon would want to turn it into a full-blown piece. I'd be interestd to see what programs they'd come up with. Or maybe The Master can come out of retirement for a one-shot?
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mlsq42
Trap-Jaw
Someone online thinks I can't wrestle?
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Post by mlsq42 on Aug 17, 2010 8:15:02 GMT -5
A RTB sequel? Well, it would be a first.
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Must... Not.... Commit....To....Anything....
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Brain Of F'n J
Hank Scorpio
Not that cool enough to have one of these....wait.
We Discodians must stick apart.
Posts: 6,890
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Post by Brain Of F'n J on Aug 17, 2010 16:29:16 GMT -5
Either one of those works for me. Maybe Neil or Simon would want to turn it into a full-blown piece. I'd be interestd to see what programs they'd come up with. Knowing what I know of Neil and Simon's upcoming schedules, their dockets are stuffed to the gills with their own ideas. Something tells me they'd be hesitant to re-tackle something I already did. If I ever came out of semi-retirement (I'm holding onto that semi for dear life), it'd be for one of two things: One of the few story ideas I started and never finished (I got two or three in varying stages of incompletion), or -- A collaboration with one or both of the crew. Jed Shaffer ~Sforcina, you have no idea how many people have asked me to do sequels. Montreal, especially.
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