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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Aug 20, 2010 16:16:50 GMT -5
You missed the entire point of Kingdom Come if all you took away from it was that Superman felt you were either with him or against him. Early on that was so, but that failed and he adapted; and learned that the MAN part was just as important as the SUPER. No, no, I got that. But Supes didn't learn that himself until the VERY END OF THE BOOK. It wasn't till after most of the heroes went boom and Supes went ape shit that he, himself, truly grasped that concept. I mean he kinda got it about midway through the book, but it wasn't until he went crazy with rage did he fully grasp it, after he was talked out of his rage, of course.
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Post by hossfan on Aug 20, 2010 16:23:05 GMT -5
I don't see Superman as a Mary Sue type character at all, at least not since Frank Miller got his grimy mitts on him in Dark Knight Returns. When paired up with other heroes he's more likely than not getting his ass kicked or made to look like some out of touch goof.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 20, 2010 16:32:06 GMT -5
The way I read him, Superman judges based on actions more. He's a little like Frank Castle. It doesn't matter who the perp is, there's simply a right and a wrong in the world and people choose to take their actions. Where they differ, of course, is in their world views. A lot of heroes (Frank Castle, for example) take on a Rorshach viewpoint, where the world is filthy and dirty and people are animals, Superman is the opposite. He thinks the world is good, people are good, and while they may falter, people can change. It doesn't take fear or grievous injury to change people, they can be shown the error of their ways and change on their own. He thinks this often to a fault. A good example, I find, is Kingdom Come. It may be an Elseworld's comic, but I think it represents his viewpoint in the world well. Just because people masquerade as heroes doesn't make them good, or better than the villains. And because he can do so much more than the average person, he puts it all on himself to change things and is devastated when he can't. He puts the highest standards of all on himself. The thing with Kingdom Come, though, is that all the new heroes were also the new villains. In that world's post-Magog era, there were no more clean cut heroes and villains, everyone just fought everyone, and they were doing it for FUN. And I'm actually amazed Supes still has the world view he has. I mean does the dude need to take a tour of the world with The Spectre to learn that, at least in the DC-verse, his world view is naive(not necessarily wrong, just something a child would think)? It wasn't for fun, really. They all still had causes, they just had no boundaries. Superman wasn't around saying everyone had to be like him, he was saying that heroes had boundaries and standards they had to live up to. The new breed of heroes were the villains, yes, but the story was a message about what we believe heroes to be.
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Post by Koda, Master Crunchyroller on Aug 20, 2010 16:35:51 GMT -5
The thing with Kingdom Come, though, is that all the new heroes were also the new villains. In that world's post-Magog era, there were no more clean cut heroes and villains, everyone just fought everyone, and they were doing it for FUN. And I'm actually amazed Supes still has the world view he has. I mean does the dude need to take a tour of the world with The Spectre to learn that, at least in the DC-verse, his world view is naive(not necessarily wrong, just something a child would think)? It wasn't for fun, really. They all still had causes, they just had no boundaries. Superman wasn't around saying everyone had to be like him, he was saying that heroes had boundaries and standards they had to live up to. The new breed of heroes were the villains, yes, but the story was a message about what we believe heroes to be. Oh, I'm pretty sure it was for fun, at least partially. Or at least at the beginning, cause when we first see the new "heroes" fighting, they are all laughing and having a jolly good time. It isn't until the old heroes come back that they get really pissy and are serious with their fighting. Of course then you have Van Braun who was a dictator ass hat who was killing just to strengthen his rule.
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Post by hollywood on Aug 21, 2010 0:10:21 GMT -5
I've been reading Superman regularly for almost 10 years. I've never once seen him "judge" anyone.
Batman on the other hand......
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Post by Legion on Aug 21, 2010 8:38:50 GMT -5
I've been reading Superman regularly for almost 10 years. I've never once seen him "judge" anyone. Batman on the other hand...... Yeah, Superman never judges. He always listens and cares about people, especially one of his supposed best friends who was saving the world from a possessed him.... ![](http://filipinovoices.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/scan0029-0030.jpg) Sure, Batman does it as well, I never said he didn't, but Superman doesn't even realise he is doing it, and that's what makes him so much worse to me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2010 9:21:14 GMT -5
Bruce is a judgemental f***.
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Post by Cela on Aug 21, 2010 12:42:39 GMT -5
I've been reading Superman regularly for almost 10 years. I've never once seen him "judge" anyone. Batman on the other hand...... Yeah, Superman never judges. He always listens and cares about people, especially one of his supposed best friends who was saving the world from a possessed him.... ![](http://filipinovoices.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/scan0029-0030.jpg) Sure, Batman does it as well, I never said he didn't, but Superman doesn't even realise he is doing it, and that's what makes him so much worse to me. I see that more as DC writers desperately trying to justify their no kill rule. Character assassination to save non kayfabe interests. Same with Kingdom Come to an extent. If someone killed the Joker, would the DC universe immediately turn into a second Gommorah, hell no. But you'd lose a great antagonist and thus real life money. So anytime someone dies in comics via the hand of a hero, its because they are a monstrous evil person, not because they are fulfilling the greater good.
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Post by hollywood on Aug 21, 2010 15:44:00 GMT -5
I've been reading Superman regularly for almost 10 years. I've never once seen him "judge" anyone. Batman on the other hand...... Yeah, Superman never judges. He always listens and cares about people, especially one of his supposed best friends who was saving the world from a possessed him.... ![](http://filipinovoices.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/scan0029-0030.jpg) Sure, Batman does it as well, I never said he didn't, but Superman doesn't even realise he is doing it, and that's what makes him so much worse to me. You're welcome to dislike him, that's fine. I only took exception to calling characters you don't like "broken" like there's something inherently wrong with them if they don't appeal to you. As for the panels...I'm really not sure what it's supposed to prove. Wonder Woman just killed a man...BIG no-no for DC heroes. Batman's responsible for an army of OMACS scouring the globe, killing metahumans and enslaving normal ones. And the only stand Superman, who's one sin was beating the s**t out of Bats under the control of Max Lord (but let's be honest, Bats needs someone to be the s**t out of him now and then), is taking is that killing is wrong (something most every DC hero agrees with) and that he shouldn't act like a god as Batman's suggesting. Fact is, they were all pretty damn guilty of past discretions here (which was kinda the point of the story), but Supes has the least blood on his hands. If anything, the least judgemental person at this particular point in this particular story (Infinite Crisis, for those who don't know) is Superman.
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Post by big nasty on Aug 21, 2010 16:52:37 GMT -5
![](http://cdn.fd.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Superman-is-a-dick.gif) he certainly judges jimmy's gifts
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Post by Legion on Aug 22, 2010 9:00:48 GMT -5
Yeah, Superman never judges. He always listens and cares about people, especially one of his supposed best friends who was saving the world from a possessed him.... ![](http://filipinovoices.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/scan0029-0030.jpg) Sure, Batman does it as well, I never said he didn't, but Superman doesn't even realise he is doing it, and that's what makes him so much worse to me. You're welcome to dislike him, that's fine. I only took exception to calling characters you don't like "broken" like there's something inherently wrong with them if they don't appeal to you. As for the panels...I'm really not sure what it's supposed to prove. Wonder Woman just killed a man...BIG no-no for DC heroes. Batman's responsible for an army of OMACS scouring the globe, killing metahumans and enslaving normal ones. And the only stand Superman, who's one sin was beating the s**t out of Bats under the control of Max Lord (but let's be honest, Bats needs someone to be the s**t out of him now and then), is taking is that killing is wrong (something most every DC hero agrees with) and that he shouldn't act like a god as Batman's suggesting. Fact is, they were all pretty damn guilty of past discretions here (which was kinda the point of the story), but Supes has the least blood on his hands. If anything, the least judgemental person at this particular point in this particular story (Infinite Crisis, for those who don't know) is Superman. I called him 'broken' because someone else called the Surfer 'broken' and I wanted to make the point that if the Silver Surfer is classed like that, then Superman surely must be, as he fits the bill for what 'broken' is just as much as the Surfer does, if not more, imo. And the panels show, again, in my opinion, the Superman can't stand that someone did something he disagreed with, but unlike Diana who is taking responsibility and Bruce who just doesnt care, Superman doesn't even realise he's being a dick.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 22, 2010 16:32:51 GMT -5
Silver Surfer is broken compared to terrestrial heroes. The Marvel Cosmic characters need to have their own standards of power, because a lot of them are like (or greater than, imo) Superman in sheer numbers of and magnitude of powers. The power cosmic has powers Superman couldn't dream of, the extent of it just depends on Galactus's will.
And I don't really get that at all from the panels.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 23, 2010 15:32:43 GMT -5
I also have to wonder something else. What exactly is he doing that makes him excessively judgmental?
All heroes judge. That's just the nature of being a hero. They judge people to determine if they are villains and, if they are, they will fight them. But Superman is hardly alone in complaining if another hero does something in a manner that he doesn't like, nor it is a DC thing by any measure. Hell, what Superman did there is way more peaceful than what happened when Iron Man and Captain America had a difference in opinion regarding being a hero. Scarlet Witch nearly wiped all mutants because she was judgmental. The Illuminati shot the Hulk into space because they were judgmental. Cyclops is a judgmental prick, as is The Punisher.
Superman will voice his opinions when other heroes do things he doesn't like, but most heroes do. He's not really even the worst when it comes down to it.
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Post by Legion on Aug 23, 2010 20:16:03 GMT -5
It isn't so much that he judges a bit here and there, it is the fact that he does it all the time. His entire gimmick is based on the premise that he is better than everyone. He tries, obviously, to act like that isnt it, and he even walks away, but in the end, he comes back to judge everyone and look down his nose and pretend like there is always a better way, nominally 'his way' and if you don't subscribe to Superman's way, you're off his Christmas card list.
Sure, other heroes do it, but because Superman is meant to be a nicer and brighter character, when he does it, not only do people not tend to notice, but he is rarely written as being wrong in his opinion.
Just not a fan.
As for Cosmic guys (there is a reason they are Cosmic, sure they dont fit in on Earth, but they are cosmic, they shouldn't be on Earth) being 'broken', I would ask you to please give some recent examples not involving abstract beings (ie, Celestials or Galactus) to prove your point?
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 24, 2010 0:00:05 GMT -5
The thing is though, the DC heroes see him as the standard bearer, the one to look up to etc. If anything, I've seen the character himself have more doubts about his role that his peers thrust him into than being the sorta smug bastard you're painting him as.
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Post by Legion on Aug 24, 2010 8:52:50 GMT -5
The thing is though, the DC heroes see him as the standard bearer, the one to look up to etc. If anything, I've seen the character himself have more doubts about his role that his peers thrust him into than being the sorta smug bastard you're painting him as. Those doubts always seem very forced to me. He knows he can do it, we know he can do it, I'd even go so far as to suggest his enemies know he can do it which is why they tend to want him out the way first. I just don't like the character, I'm sure I like guys others dislike (Surfer being a prime example in this thread), but me and Superman just don't click.
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Post by 'Foretold' Joker on Aug 25, 2010 18:03:44 GMT -5
Shuma-Gorath would seemingly demolish all the DC heroes of the original line up suggested as not one magic user was put forward.
So on that note.
Doctor Fate vs Doctor Strange?
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 25, 2010 19:06:51 GMT -5
No one is saying you can't dislike the guy, as people have said before, that'd be stupid. You're welcome to like and dislike anyone you want. I don't like most of the X-men. I don't completely disagree with a lot of what you said. Most of the arcs that don't introduce a Marvel-esque villain basically have to start with Superman being taken out of the action. Compared to many other DC characters, he is extremely powerful. But, compared to a lot of Marvel characters, he's not.
We just disagree with your portrayal of him. He's no more judgmental than most other heroes, and given that the worst you tend to get with him are stern words (as opposed to, say, releasing a long secret clone of a god who kills another hero just because you disagree with someone's ideologies), I simply don't see why what he does is so much worse. All heroes are supposed to be better than the normal population (that's why they're heroes) and many of them are just as judgmental.
As for the Cosmic characters, the superpower toolkit given to many of the main characters is far beyond what Superman gets. I have a hard time considering Superman overpowered when much of the Marvel Universe could take him him out with a thought, and there's such a reliance on vague artifacts, powers and entities with immeasurable power. I love Silver Surfer, but unless you remove the power cosmic from him, I don't believe anyone else in the Marvel universe aside from other cosmic characters should stand a chance against him. They've boosted up the powers considerably enough that anyone beating him (or any other heralds of Galactus) just raises the stock of the people who beat them in my eyes.
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Post by Red Impact on Aug 25, 2010 19:27:06 GMT -5
Shuma-Gorath would seemingly demolish all the DC heroes of the original line up suggested as not one magic user was put forward. So on that note. Doctor Fate vs Doctor Strange? Before his injuries, Doctor Strange easily. Dr. Fate is a good sorcerer, but he's not the strongest in the DC universe. Strange has done a lot more with magic.
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Post by Goldenbane on Aug 25, 2010 20:18:10 GMT -5
My two cents on the Superman thing: No, I don't feel he's normally overly judgemental. In fact, I was rather ticked off with the "Bill" character from Kill Bill Volume two and his take on how Superman feels towards humanity. The absolute worst time I've ever seen Superman as out of character and extremely judgemental was in the Avengers/JLA crossover. But as I said, I felt he was mistreated in that story as far as his attitude goes (and the fact that he "defeated" Thor...but that's another arguement for another day).
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