randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Dec 22, 2010 8:41:04 GMT -5
I don't think WWE cares that much about continuity, unless they want to give someone a chance. They gave him a chance. He screwed up. And I'll say it again....it would not have mattered. He did not have 'a chance'. He has never had 'a chance'. WWE has booked him into oblivion from day one and made sure that he had no chance to go over long before he kicked Ziggler. There's no reason to think that they'd have magically changed their minds had he not hit that kick. Kaval is far from the first person to stiff someone, and he certainly won't be the last. People far higher up the card have botched moves and spots before without getting depushed, and people have botched moves and injured people far more important than Dolph Ziggler and walked away unscathed. It's a damn big stretch to think that Kaval's WWE run was torpedoed due to one errant kick, especially when he's being booked now the exact same way he was before survivor series -- a jobber who doesn't matter.
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Post by Brian Suntan on Dec 22, 2010 8:45:58 GMT -5
They're hardly booking Riley like Goldberg, so that goes out of the window.
The one thing Kaval has got going for him is that there's a story behind his losses. The story might be that he's an idiot, but it's a story.
If they had no interest outside of jobbing him out and releasing him, they wouldn't go to the trouble of having him prove himself to be a warrior. He'd just turn up and lose quietly like Zack.
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Fang
Bubba Ho-Tep
Posts: 543
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Post by Fang on Dec 22, 2010 8:49:27 GMT -5
Ok, it has to be said… People who say "wins and loses don't matter" truly have no concept of the business and what draws money. Matches draw money. Conflicts between “winners” draw money. People suspend disbelief and view it, in that moment, as a combat sport. And if you don't "win", or at least project a sense of being credible, no one reacts to you unless you do so in a spectacularly ridiculous manner like Santino – which became his gimmick. No one buys Wrestlemania and says, “I don’t care who wins or loses”. People bought Hogan vs. Andre because both were booked as unbeatable. And now, doing battle, someone had to lose. Same with Hogan vs. Warrior. Same with Rock vs. Austin. Same with Rock vs. Hogan. Same with any match that moved numbers and created interest. Kids love Cena, not because he shows Respect & hustles or whatever the f***, but because he’s perceived as a winner. We gravitate to the successful – and lament their bad luck when inferior people cheat them. Credibility SELLS. Because we pretend its real. That’s the point. That’s how it works. And while he’ll never be a top guy, if a Kaval is perceived as a joke, and worthless, due to the fact he’s seen consistently losing, NO ONE WILL CARE ABOUT HIM. No one cares about bland vanilla guys who get killed. There’s nothing relatable or entertaining about it. It’s just a scrub getting demolished. And looking stupid in the process because he’s too dumb to see these ambushes and blind-sides coming. What’s to support? What’s there to rally behind? Who would hope this clueless jobber finally wins? Now, if it leads to a disgruntled heel-turn, I’ll commend WWE. But if not, and they release him for “not getting over”? That’s their fault. Oh, and must everything disintegrate into the moronic “You guys all want your Internet darlings to be World Champions!!!111” shtick? Why can’t I just want to see a guy, who is more talented than the fudge beanpoles they lose to, getting a break? There’s no reason on earth Kaval can’t be a decent IC –level mid-carder. Not everything is “us vs. them!” “Indy vs. Establishment!” You are not part of the WWE. I don’t represent the Indies or little dudes with kick-pads everywhere. The whole thing is big floppy clown shoes and makes you look like either a mark (the true meaning), or a forum gimmick. It’s beyond lame. THIS. A thousand times over. Thank you.
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randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Dec 22, 2010 8:53:28 GMT -5
In regards to the first comment, I agree. It's not like Riley, McGillicutty and Harris are doing that much better than Kaval anyway. Sure, Riley gets to hang around with the WWE Champion, but he's taking all the bullets right now. And McGillicutty and Harris were little more than warm bodies for Cena to demolish over and over. I agree that the ones you mentioned aren't doing all that much better than Kaval. But at the very least, they're cannon fodder that's involved in storylines. Kaval is just cannon fodder. I think the whole "feud with mysterio" thing is fantasy booking/wishful thinking/grasping at straws. Remember all the stuff that was supposed to happen with Bryan that never materialized? Or how the Survivor series match was supposed to jumpstart his push? Some people just latch onto educated guesses/wild speculation/dirtsheet rumors/fantasy booking and refuse to let go.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Dec 22, 2010 8:55:05 GMT -5
He can always go back to TNA and job for half the payday. Or go to Japan and be stuck as junior heayweight. This is why I wish WWE would never hire "indy darlings". Would there be the same amount of rage if he wasn't a big name in the indies? If it was Trent Barretta jobbing, would you care as much? Funny how everyone is quick to cry out buried whenever someone they like loses a match. Ziggler. Miz. Bryan. Sheamus. Morrison. CM Punk. People who according to folks would never recover from losing key matches. And look where they are now. Still jobbing but higher on the card. Wait, you're telling me people are likely to get more angry when someone they like loses a match over someone they don't care about? Thanks for the newsflash.
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Post by Loser troll. Please ban me on Dec 22, 2010 8:56:08 GMT -5
WWE Fact: No one has ever been burried ever, your obviously missing the bigger picture where he's going to get a huge fued and mega push. Ok, it has to be said… People who say "wins and loses don't matter" truly have no concept of the business and what draws money. Matches draw money. Conflicts between “winners” draw money. People suspend disbelief and view it, in that moment, as a combat sport. And if you don't "win", or at least project a sense of being credible, no one reacts to you unless you do so in a spectacularly ridiculous manner like Santino – which became his gimmick. No one buys Wrestlemania and says, “I don’t care who wins or loses”. People bought Hogan vs. Andre because both were booked as unbeatable. And now, doing battle, someone had to lose. Same with Hogan vs. Warrior. Same with Rock vs. Austin. Same with Rock vs. Hogan. Same with any match that moved numbers and created interest. Kids love Cena, not because he shows Respect & hustles or whatever the f***, but because he’s perceived as a winner. We gravitate to the successful – and lament their bad luck when inferior people cheat them. Credibility SELLS. Because we pretend its real. That’s the point. That’s how it works. And while he’ll never be a top guy, if a Kaval is perceived as a joke, and worthless, due to the fact he’s seen consistently losing, NO ONE WILL CARE ABOUT HIM. No one cares about bland vanilla guys who get killed. There’s nothing relatable or entertaining about it. It’s just a scrub getting demolished. And looking stupid in the process because he’s too dumb to see these ambushes and blind-sides coming. What’s to support? What’s there to rally behind? Who would hope this clueless jobber finally wins? Now, if it leads to a disgruntled heel-turn, I’ll commend WWE. But if not, and they release him for “not getting over”? That’s their fault. Oh, and must everything disintegrate into the moronic “You guys all want your Internet darlings to be World Champions!!!111” shtick? Why can’t I just want to see a guy, who is more talented than the fudge beanpoles they lose to, getting a break? There’s no reason on earth Kaval can’t be a decent IC –level mid-carder. Not everything is “us vs. them!” “Indy vs. Establishment!” You are not part of the WWE. I don’t represent the Indies or little dudes with kick-pads everywhere. The whole thing is big floppy clown shoes and makes you look like either a mark (the true meaning), or a forum gimmick. It’s beyond lame. Can we please sticky this message? Im serious.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 22, 2010 8:59:27 GMT -5
I'm more pissed that Alex "Reggie" Riley loses more matches than Kaval. Sure it's against top tier guys, but it usually last a few minutes in total squash mode. It's already been established he's a joke and bullet catcher of the Miz. At least when Jericho had Lance Cade as his manservant , he won some matches here and there.
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 22, 2010 9:00:37 GMT -5
He can always go back to TNA and job for half the payday. Or go to Japan and be stuck as junior heayweight. This is why I wish WWE would never hire "indy darlings". Would there be the same amount of rage if he wasn't a big name in the indies? If it was Trent Barretta jobbing, would you care as much? Funny how everyone is quick to cry out buried whenever someone they like loses a match. Ziggler. Miz. Bryan. Sheamus. Morrison. CM Punk. People who according to folks would never recover from losing key matches. And look where they are now. Still jobbing but higher on the card. Wait, you're telling me people are likely to get more angry when someone they like loses a match over someone they don't care about? Thanks for the newsflash. You're welcome. Glad to be of service.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Dec 22, 2010 9:02:37 GMT -5
WWE Fact: No one has ever been burried ever Not according to this board there hasn't. I notice nobody has been able to answer the question. If they way they treat Kaval isn't a burial, then what is? I get that you want to balance out those who scream "Burial!" at every little thing but there is a middle ground. There were even people justifying Chavo losing to Hornswoggle for what seemed like months on end for god sakes!
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Post by Loser troll. Please ban me on Dec 22, 2010 9:03:59 GMT -5
WWE Fact: No one has ever been burried ever, your obviously missing the bigger picture where he's going to get a huge fued and mega push. Not according to this board there hasn't. I notice nobody has been able to answer the question. If they way they treat Kaval isn't a burial, then what is? I get that you want to balance out those who scream "Burial!" at every little thing but there is a middle ground. There were even people justifying Chavo losing to Hornswoggle for what seemed like months on end for god sakes! It fits the definition of what I understand "burried" to mean, but thats apologists for you, some simply cannot fathom wwe doing any wrong.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2010 10:08:33 GMT -5
That's what I'm gonna call Kaval from now on.
Sorry, guys, but he is a jobber. There's no denying it.
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Post by generationxero on Dec 22, 2010 10:21:14 GMT -5
I didn't wanna believe it at first, but I think you're right.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2010 10:23:49 GMT -5
I didn't wanna believe it at first, but I think you're right. Here's the thing I don't get: McGuillicutty and Harris lost but became members of Nexus, and even though that meant a buttwhipping by Cena, it was a lot better (and more presentable) than losing to Chavo Guerrero and Tyler Reks. I was hoping that they'd do something with Ziggler, but that was merely to just get rid of that title contract and get him fixiated on that Mike Knox role (not the Snitsky role, the "guy who never wins at house shows" role).
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Post by ________ has left the building on Dec 22, 2010 11:13:22 GMT -5
Everyone is BURIED! BURIED!BURIED!BURIED! BURIED BURIED BURIED BURIED BURIED BURIED! Everyone is BURIED!
And so this is the end of WWE. And everyone is BURIED It took from me my favorite wrestler My only true highlight My only GREAT superstar(He was BURIED)
Well I'm gonna to march to Stamford Lead the fight and charge the brigades There's a mark inside of all of us I'll make them see everyone is BURIED
Kaval(BURIED) Dolph Ziggler(BURIED) Wade Barrett and the Nexus(BURIED BURIED BURIED) Daniel Bryan and Smackdown And the tag teams and the Divas
Everyone is BURIED! Todd Grisham and ol' Jerry Lawler (BURIED BURIED BURIED) The Miz is finished and so are you(BURIED BURIED BURIED BURIED BURIED) C'mon everybody we got bitching to do(BURIED BURIED BURIED BURIED BURIED) We gotta to break down the midcard, everyone is BURIED!
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Post by Trent Valentine on Dec 22, 2010 11:33:18 GMT -5
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Dec 22, 2010 11:35:04 GMT -5
Can you blame them? The guy is a ten year plus pro, and he almost knocked Dolph out with a reckless kick at Survivor Series. Come on really? There hasn't been one superstar with a decent length career that hasn't injured someone at some time. The WWE knows injuries happen and wrestlers don't get punished for every one, especially since Dolph didn't even get seriously hurt. Hell Rey Mysterio put the Undertaker on the shelf for months and got a title reign out of it. Just face it, the WWE had there mind up on how they were going to book Kaval the minute they signed him regardless of how he performed in the ring. Why... I have no idea, but I don't think a little bloody nose was the reason.
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Ian Austin
Don Corleone
All will be well
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Ian Austin on Dec 22, 2010 11:42:01 GMT -5
You do realise Rey injured The Undertaker eight years after he started in the WWE, right?
Beside, you're comparing a headliner to Kaval. Mysterio makes the WWE money. He's proven to be a dedicated worker who took his chance working with Angle and made himself into a marketable wrestler. Kaval hasn't done that. The first real PPV match he gets, and he kicks Dolph directly in the face to the extent where people here were genuinely concerned over Dolph's health.
They may have been booking him badly, but the guy hardly helped his cause by being as reckless in 2010 as he was on the independent circuit.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2010 11:44:01 GMT -5
I do have to point out that I never expected Kaval to ever be a contender for the World titles, but at best he'd be a high midcarder who would fight for the IC belt. Essentially, he could've been a guy that could bring a crowd to life and add some spice to the undercard to help set up more buys to a PPV in which fans can expect a decent match. That, my friends, is the business of wrestling: people pay money and watch TV to see competition, even if it is all set up.
I agree with Sean Caress 100%. While we all know about wrestling, the presentation of winners and losers determine how the audience feels about them. If a guy keeps losing, then fans don't buy him seriously and eventually don't care what he does. I mean, Mike Knox (my reliable example) is almost 300 pounds and he got no heat because everyone expected him to lose to Evan Bourne every time (and he did every time) because they booked him to lose to everyone. At best, Knox could've served as that roadblock for a person to overcome to prove that they are ready to take on the title holder, but he was merely used so that many wrestlers can have that token "I Beat a Big Guy" victory. And bear in mind that they wanted him to look like a monster heel. Does anyone ever get scared of a monster that can't even take out one house before being pummeled to death by wiffle bats? No.
Same with Kaval. The idea of an "underdog babyface" may have worked for Rey Mysterio (although it is an oxymoron in his case), but it doesn't help that he gets annihalated every time and that 2 of his 3 wins on SmackDown are because of a tag match where the other guy got the job done, and the third was made to look like a fluke at "Survivor Series" (also add to the fact that he might've come close to knocking Ziggler's head off put him in more bad graces with the bookers). And the idea that he is being a warrior is instead making him look like a dumbass because the beatdowns he got essentially lead to quick squashes for the guy that only make things look worse.
It also doesn't help who Kaval is losing to. While the other NXT guys are being fodder, at least they are being fodder to John Cena and Randy Orton in storylines (Nexus and the Miz as WWE Champ). Losing to Jack Swagger and Drew McIntyre may not sound bad at first, losing to them continuously without anything behind it makes it worse (kinda like the Hart Dynasty and Cryme Tyme fighting for a year). And let's not forget him losing his "Bragging Rights" spot to Tyler Reks, and guess what that amounted to? Nothing, since Reks doesn't get any heat whatsoever and he himself is spending time on Superstars.
But, like I said, I don't consider him to be World title-worthy. He just doesn't have "it" (sadly, I don't know what "it" is), and while he may be a better worker than some guys on the roster, it just won't happen. But that doesn't mean he shouldn't be at the very bottom of the totem pole or pecking order.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Dec 22, 2010 11:55:22 GMT -5
You do realise Rey injured The Undertaker eight years after he started in the WWE, right? Beside, you're comparing a headliner to Kaval. Mysterio makes the WWE money. He's proven to be a dedicated worker who took his chance working with Angle and made himself into a marketable wrestler. Kaval hasn't done that. The first real PPV match he gets, and he kicks Dolph directly in the face to the extent where people here were genuinely concerned over Dolph's health. They may have been booking him badly, but the guy hardly helped his cause by being as reckless in 2010 as he was on the independent circuit. Umm... but Dolph Ziggler was perfectly fine Maybe I'd buy that if he seriously hurt him. And you could even argue that the kick to the head wasn't even Kavals fault. And the Rey injury was just an example. When Chris Masters was a rookie he broke Stephen Richards nose in his first match and still got a push until he was wellnessed. I could list more instances but seeing as how this argument is getting silly it's moot.
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randomranter
Dennis Stamp
When you grow up....... YOU'RE GONNA BE WROOOOOONG!!!!
Posts: 4,804
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Post by randomranter on Dec 22, 2010 11:57:01 GMT -5
You do realise Rey injured The Undertaker eight years after he started in the WWE, right? Beside, you're comparing a headliner to Kaval. Mysterio makes the WWE money. He's proven to be a dedicated worker who took his chance working with Angle and made himself into a marketable wrestler. Kaval hasn't done that. The first real PPV match he gets, and he kicks Dolph directly in the face to the extent where people here were genuinely concerned over Dolph's health. They may have been booking him badly, but the guy hardly helped his cause by being as reckless in 2010 as he was on the independent circuit. That does not change the fact that he was being booked as a complete jobber for three months before that kick even happened. He was booked to lose that match anyway. We have absolutely no reason to believe that he'd have been booked as anything but a jobber even if he hadn't stiff kicked Ziggler. You keep blaming Kaval for being unable to get himself over, but how the hell is he supposed to get himself over while he's being booked the way he's been? You keep saying that that kick is the reason for him continuing to be booked as a jobber, yet there is no reason to believe that he'd have been booked any other way. And keep in mind that Rey might be a headliner, but if there's anybody on Smackdown's roster who's a bigger headliner, is more important, and sells more merchandise than Rey Mysterio, it's the Undertaker. Yet Rey suffered no punishment -- and in fact, in a way got rewarded -- for breaking his face.
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