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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2012 17:33:17 GMT -5
Was the fog ship really necessary though? I don't recall it ever being mentioned before, just that he had wandered around for all those years. It seemed like an easy way to make a connection to the rest of the series beyond a time traveling teleporter and whatever the hell Jeane is, since none of the other characters could do it. If the main character had been in any of the first three they probably wouldn't have even used Ted.
I'm nearing the end of SIV and I can't think of why I thought the game was even okay to begin with. It is bad, and not just bad for a Suikoden. The gameplay is okay, but missing most of what Suikoden games were about. Four-person parties and no short/mid/long ranges most importantly. You have the duels and the naval battles but both are really easy to win. The locations are mostly bland, so much of the story and sub-plots are left unexplained or explained poorly, you have to infer a lot of the context, and story events just sort of happen with little connection from one scene to the next. The game does a poor job of making you care about anything, from the nations you're supposed to unite to the Stars of Destiny. Which is a shame because I like a lot of the character designs, it's just that I have no attachment to any of them. And since the only other game any of them were in, besides the three mentioned above, is Suikoden Tactics, there is even less reason to care. By the time the rest of the series happens, everyone but the main character (presumably), Jeane, Ted, and Viki is dead.
Harmonia was interested in the Rune of Punishment, they tried to get Cray to exchange it for military purposes. I don't think the RoP cares too much about where it goes, as no one holds it for very long other than the hero. And like Untouchable mentioned, there was the Howling Voice guild around by then, and they go all over the place. Clive is hanging around Toran and Dunan, and Elza is also running around in Dunan, Cathari is in Falenas which is south of the Island Nations entirely. I'm pretty sure Nash is connected to the Howling Voice guild also, so they were also out in the Grasslands and Zexen.
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Fundertaker
Vegeta
Hideo Kojima should direct every ending ever!
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Post by Fundertaker on Aug 10, 2012 18:43:25 GMT -5
It's more that he "disappeared" during that time and it was mentioned that the Rune Of Life And Death changed hands during that short period before Ted got it back. I never said that they weren't interested in it. Just that it was low on their to get list. They would need quite a few bodies just to have it "controlled" over centuries and it's one of those that I can see backfiring on them over time, giving it's punishing traits ("pun" intended). Clive's Quest tells us that she wasn't just "running around". Also, Clive was just around the Toran/Dunan regions to track down Elza, not as an agent looking for info or something like that (unless Harmonia likes to see their guys kill each other, what with Sasarai appearing alongside Highland). Nash was already out of the guild come the Suikogaidens too (his mission of searching for True Runes in Dunan already came has a member of the Southern Frontier Defence Force). So, the only one really being used as an agent for Harmonia was Cathari in Suikoden V (and there the interest seems more in monitoring the relationships between Falena, New Armes and Nagarea and acessing the situation with Nether Gate then to get their hands on runes or plot something). So the guild being around doesn't mean that much. I mean, there's teleporting ninjas in SIV for cryin' out loud. If anything they should have an explanation for that!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2012 22:13:59 GMT -5
Was that bit about Ted in the first game? I don't remember it at all.
I would think that any True Rune would be high on Harmonia's list since a major focus for them is getting all of the True Runes together for some reason. Granted they are doing a horrible job at it since I think they only have 2 now, Circle and True Earth, unless any of the 9 unknown runes are in Harmonia. And that's if they have the Circle Rune still, as no one's seen it in a long time. For all their military power Harmonia has a terrible track record of actually getting things done, now that I think about it.
By running around I just meant she is in the Dunan area. She's the only one not on official business though - Clive was sent to track her down and Cathari was sent to monitor everything in Falena. Regardless, that Harmonia has such little involvement in Suikoden IV is odd, because they would have the means to get involved. Plus, Kooluk is a big mess and the Island Nations are too spread out to do anything meaningful beyond a naval war. I guess maybe Harmonia was already weakening by that point, as Scarlet Moon had rebelled several decades prior, putting a big enemy right in the way of getting to the Island Nations.
The teleporting ninjas, and the other non-Viki characters for that matter, always bother me because why don't they just teleport behind the main villain and knife him in the back. It would have made things so much simpler. Or why doesn't Luc's group just teleport up to Hugo while he's sleeping and kill him and take the True Fire Rune. At least with Viki it's established that she's a bit ditzy and prone to making mistakes. I figured the ninjas were just thrown in because hey it's a mid-90s JRPG, better have some ninjas all over the place.
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Fundertaker
Vegeta
Hideo Kojima should direct every ending ever!
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Post by Fundertaker on Aug 11, 2012 9:19:12 GMT -5
Yeah, but I was talking about the SIV ninjas, who teleport from the sea to land because... why not?
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Post by Chronos on Aug 13, 2012 17:38:48 GMT -5
Didn't remember the whole "Harmonia bartering with Graham Cray" bit. I thought he was just using the Rune of Punishment as a bargaining chip with Kooluk, hence the high position he and his Trading Company got within the country after he left the Scarlet Moon Empire. I would think that any True Rune would be high on Harmonia's list since a major focus for them is getting all of the True Runes together for some reason. Granted they are doing a horrible job at it since I think they only have 2 now, Circle and True Earth, unless any of the 9 unknown runes are in Harmonia. And that's if they have the Circle Rune still, as no one's seen it in a long time. For all their military power Harmonia has a terrible track record of actually getting things done, now that I think about it. Even a nation like Harmonia and its staggering military/espionage power needs a very heavy dose of caution while trying to capture even one True Rune, due to the very real possibility of catastrophe if an attempt to capture one is botched. What's more, many of the Runes are national treasures or have bearers that are great and significantly powerful leaders in their own right, so that's another element of delicacy that has to be taken into consideration. They could send assassins, but even Howling Voice Guild members would probably be found and run off/killed. So it's really down to Harmonia relying on their information network and waiting for an opportunity. Although, sometimes the "opportunity" blows up in their faces like the events of Suikoden III. On top of this, the True Runes themselves have wills of their own, and if they don't want to stay in Harmonia they won't. (The Beast Rune, for example, refused to be confined in Harmonia so its settling in L'Renouille was disguised as a gift to Highland IIRC.) On the DDS front, my new cycle save on DDS2 was also a "midway save," right before the Airport this time. Sigh. At least I can beat them and get "proper" new cycle saves set up now.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2012 20:17:59 GMT -5
Graham Cray dealing with Harmonia got about two or three lines, and it was never spoke of again.
What I really dislike about IV, besides it being so far apart from the rest of the series, is that there is so much there that could potentially be an awesome game, but none of that is fleshed out too well. Too find out most of the subplots you have to talk to all the NPCs hanging around, story events just kind of happen out of the blue, the ocean is basically empty with a ton of random encounters, the Island Nations are at best Island Small Cities. It's a frustrating game to play because it could be so much more than it is. And while Tactics does expand on SIV's story it doesn't make SIV less frustrating to play.
I think I'm going to go right to Suikoden V instead of Tactics, but I'll take a break for a couple of days as my copy of Growlanser: Wayfarer of Time came in the mail a few days ago.
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Post by Chronos on Aug 13, 2012 23:52:07 GMT -5
Still need to get on Gungnir and Growlanser. Not just because they're almost certainly very good games, but also because I want to see Persona 2 EP over here. I wanna do whatever I can to increase its chances for an English release.
The Island Small Cities Federation has a ring to it, you may be onto something. It's funny that what feels like the "biggest" town in Suikoden IV is a ruin by the time you get to actually visit it (Iluya Island). Na-Nal doesn't feel like there's anything there at all, it just feels like a green field dotted with a few houses here and there. The hot springs are inconsequential, and the elven settlement is nonexistent. Middleport is more ghost town than vibrant trading hub. Razril feels like a bunch of unpopulated streets alongside a barely inhabited castle. Even the mighty Kingdom of Obel feels more like a sleepy coastal town than the majestic, thriving heart of a potential new unified country. Lino en Kuldes's casual choice in clothing fits the stature of the place he rules.
The Island Nations Federation Fleet might be the most invincible navy in videogame history by the time of Suikoden V, too, what with the unending torrent of monster attacks they have to constantly endure while on patrol. They don't need to bluff with their Rune Cannons, those soldiers have gotta be absurdly strong by now. Heck, "Island Nations" may as well refer to the different colonies of sea monsters and other aquatic life around the islands instead, as they outnumber the human population about 250 to 1. It'd be a much more populous set of "nations," at least, if a bit lacking in diplomatic skills.
You're also right in that story events can just pop up like a typical random encounter. At times it seems like you're just going along, maybe trying to explore around a little, and then the main character will stumble across a wandering story snippet. Rather than the story being focused and moving itself along with any sort of consistent pace, it seems to sort of jump around in fits and starts. And the final boss really is A WILD FINAL BOSS APPEARS, one of the worst cases this side of Necron.
Thanks for the info on Cray too, guys. The way it's handled doesn't surprise me at all, I guess there had to be a token mention of Harmonia somewhere.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2012 8:54:09 GMT -5
From about 1:00 to 1:15 in this video is the extent of Harmonia in Suikoden IV.
It would have been nice to get to go Iluya first, before it gets destroyed. Instead, I have no real reason to care about the place at all. Plus, just from the ruins it looked like it might be a little more visually interesting than the other places, with the big circle center of town. It seems like there should have been a story segment there with the temporary Kooluk base and all, but I'm not sure you even need to go there aside from recruiting some characters.
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Post by lockedontarget on Aug 14, 2012 12:20:20 GMT -5
So if you are a fan of Persona 3/4, get Arena. Even if you hate fighting games. It's a genuine sequel to both, with a 25+ hour story mode that's basically a visual novel with some fights here and there. And it's really good.
And it's pretty clear Mitsuru's operatives and the Investigation Team will both be back in another game.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2012 13:33:04 GMT -5
Now that I found a job I'll probably get Arena at some point. It was easy to justify not getting it without a steady source of income, but it does look really cool.
Wayfarer of Time is really good so far. The story is kind of neat because you don't really have a clear picture of what all is happening, and you don't get to see exposition scenes of the major players so you have to put together the pieces of story by yourself. The battle system is fun - it's sort of like a RTS but not too complex.
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Fundertaker
Vegeta
Hideo Kojima should direct every ending ever!
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Post by Fundertaker on Aug 17, 2012 14:49:13 GMT -5
Just got FFXII today (had a few extra points on my GAME card and it was dirt cheap used, so I got it for free), although dunno when I'll be able to play it regularly.
I did play like half a day of it back when it came out (my cousin bought it, he knows I'm a big RPG fan and lends me some of them when he buys 'em) and wasn't overly impressed. Let's see if all those years later (and Xenoblade coming out, speaking about games with similar gameplay) it gets better.
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Post by Chronos on Aug 22, 2012 14:41:27 GMT -5
I've gone back to Tactics Ogre and reading the wrestling autobiographies I've just gotten (Jericho's 2nd, Foley's 1st, Bret's) to try and cheer myself up a little. I've been a bit down lately, though there's no real reason for it. I've been thinking about playing FFVII again too, it's been awhile.
I read a summary of Arena's story and, no offense to lockedontarget, it sounds like bad fanfiction. I hope it's better in practice, but then again I'm one of those who think that P4's and especially P3's original endings are perfect and don't need followed up on. There's money to be made though, so what can you do I guess.
FFXII's battle system is worse than Xenoblade's, but that doesn't mean it's bad per se. I had a lot of fun thinking up gambit setups, some of them incredibly specific for certain mark battles. And a lot of storyline bosses made me do things pretty much by hand, as the situation tends to change too quickly mid-fight for your static gambit setups to keep up. Some of the optional battles are among my personal favorites in RPG history, but there's no denying it's polarizing.
Xenoblade is absolutely superior at making your party an actual team with well-defined roles and such. FFXII is like FFX in that the characters are blank slates that start on different ends of the license board but can eventually learn anything and everything. The International Zodiac Job System version of FFXII remedied this, of course, but Square Enix doesn't like to release things like that outside of Japan so we never got it.
This makes me wanna play FFXII again too, haha. It's more-or-less totally outclassed by Xenoblade now, but I still love the world of Ivalice and it's been a while since I've last been.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2012 16:37:55 GMT -5
Growlanser: Wayfarer of Time is a son of a bitch. Some of the fights are ridiculous, even when you go in prepared. That said, it is also a lot of fun and highly rewarding when you get the strategy just right. The fights aren't just using your best attacks over and over, which is nice. There are a lot of escort missions which are about as terrible as they are in every other video game ever. I get that it adds another layer of strategy to a fight, but the NPCs are beyond stupid.
Like one mission, I'm escorting a merchant from one city to another one, with a flock of transport birds in tow. He gets attacked by monsters along the way, and rather than, you know, HIDE BEHIND THE MASSIVELY OVERPOWERED AND ARMORED CHARACTERS WITH MAGICAL WEAPONS THAT SHOOT OUT OF RINGS THAT DESTROY EVERYTHING, he chooses to walk right into them, gets poisoned, and dies.
I'm really liking the game, STUPID MERCHANTS WHO DESERVE EVERYTHING THEY GET aside. The character designs get a bit weird and the female designs are pretty much all fanservice all the time, but they are distinct. The story took a turn into political and military maneuverings which was fun.
I also thought both Persona 3 and 4 had satisfying endings, though I haven't read much about Arena. I'm more interested in it as a fighter which generally have disappointing stories. Plus I feel compelled to get every SMT release, no matter how much of an obvious cash-in it is.
I forced myself to specialize the FFXII characters, as I didn't want everyone to do everything. I remember I had Penelo as an awesome magic user, with a gambit set up for every weakness and throwing Ardor and Scathe all over the place.
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Post by Chronos on Aug 22, 2012 18:06:11 GMT -5
Oh, make no mistake, had I a PS3/360 I'd get P4A. It's an Arc System Works fighter featuring characters I absolutely love first and foremost, even if it is a cash-in. I'm just a bit uncomfortable with that story (given the summary that I read is accurate) being called a "genuine sequel" to P3/4, with the ramifications such a label carries. I do hope they develop and stick with a totally new cast for P5, though, the P3 and 4 characters have definitely had their time in the spotlight.
Growlanser's female designs load on the fanservice because series artist Satoshi Urushihara is a hentai legend. His art's fantastic either way, but that particular aspect of it is well-explained. Sucks to hear that the "Rafa complex" afflicts this game's NPCs too, it's always one of the worst things about any escort/protection mission. Especially in SRPGs. Other than that, I'm looking forward to when I can play it. The moment when you finally get a perfect strategy down pat on a particularly tough map is such a great feeling.
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Fundertaker
Vegeta
Hideo Kojima should direct every ending ever!
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Post by Fundertaker on Aug 22, 2012 18:11:55 GMT -5
Well, having got the time to actually play a good portion of the game over the last couple of days, yeah totally this. Actually, I think the game tries to do too much with the battle, license and gambit systems and they fall flat 80% of the time. Also, it seems tthe game begs you to farm when you have a chance (which is helpful, but I prefer to do RPG-ing as smooth as possible, always going, not as much as *lots of story*lots of farming*BOSS BATTLE*lots of story*lots of farming*BOSS BATTLE* that the game seems to go until now). Also, now I remember why I didn't like the game as a Final Fantasy game back then (but still am totally OK as an RPG though). That isn't Final Fantasy. That's freakin Star Wars. The new trilogy. I mean, just look at the opening cinematics and tell me you don't see it (btw, I'm rather indiferent to Star Wars, it's just that this game gives way too much Star Wars vibes instead of Final Fantasy ones which I liked). Also, Ifrit and Shiva should've remained espers dangit!
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Post by Zabel Zarock on Aug 22, 2012 18:21:16 GMT -5
You really don't have to do to much farming to get through XII, I didn't really farm at all and I was okay for going through the main storyline. The Hunts though, man did I need to farm for those and man were they worth it. The Hunts were extremely fun to do.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
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Post by Bo Rida on Aug 24, 2012 8:43:26 GMT -5
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Post by lockedontarget on Aug 24, 2012 10:00:10 GMT -5
There is no way the Persona 3 and 4 casts do not star in another game. Arena pretty much blatantly sets that up. Wether that will be Persona 5 or a different spinoff game, who knows. But these characters are in it for the long haul.
Not to mention a P2 character looks to be joining in on the antics, too, if a certain person in Arena's story s who most people think it is.
And just reading a plot summary would make P4 look mediocre, too. You should know if you've played that game that the greatest strengths in the story is the writing and dialogue and character interaction. Arena delivers on that stuff well. The general plot is pretty simple and straightforward. It's an absolute joy if you are attached to these characters, it's like hanging out with all your old friends again.
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Post by Chronos on Aug 24, 2012 23:35:35 GMT -5
You really don't have to do to much farming to get through XII, I didn't really farm at all and I was okay for going through the main storyline. The Hunts though, man did I need to farm for those and man were they worth it. The Hunts were extremely fun to do. This is true. You don't have to license grind or farm loot much at all to get through the main game if you do a decent job of maintaining your characters and gambits. It's just a lot of the optional stuff you really have to set yourself up for, and I also agree that it's totally worth it. Many of the battles are really intense and exhilarating. I think everyone who's played the game has noted its Star Wars similarities, too. Not like they really tried to hide it. There is no way the Persona 3 and 4 casts do not star in another game. Arena pretty much blatantly sets that up. Wether that will be Persona 5 or a different spinoff game, who knows. But these characters are in it for the long haul. Not to mention a P2 character looks to be joining in on the antics, too, if a certain person in Arena's story s who most people think it is. And just reading a plot summary would make P4 look mediocre, too. You should know if you've played that game that the greatest strengths in the story is the writing and dialogue and character interaction. Arena delivers on that stuff well. The general plot is pretty simple and straightforward. It's an absolute joy if you are attached to these characters, it's like hanging out with all your old friends again. I wasn't trying to say these characters wouldn't be back for another game, that much is patently obvious from what I've read. I just hope that for Persona 5 Atlus introduces an all-new cast of characters and leaves the P3/4 characters out of it outside of references or short cameo appearances. New number, new cast. Reading a summary of P4's plot would ruin the game more than making it seem mediocre, due to the murder mystery nature of the plot. Your point's very valid about the sharp characterization and character interaction being one of P4's strongest points, P3 of course shares that strength as well. I guess that more than anything I should just be glad that the games are popular enough to get all these spinoffs and ports (and the anime adaptation) in the first place. The series isn't in danger by any means and they haven't ruined the continuity or stories of Persona 3 and 4 by a longshot so whatever bitching I do seems pretty superfluous, hahaha.
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Post by lockedontarget on Aug 25, 2012 1:43:44 GMT -5
See P4's plot is pretty underwhelming, though, if you just break it down into a summary. Barely anything even happens in the murder case for like 2/3rds of the game. Because Persona 4 isn't really a story-driven game to begin with, it's a character driven one.
Arena is essentially that, but magnified.
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