Dean-o
Grimlock
Haha we're having fun Maggle!
Posts: 13,865
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Post by Dean-o on Sept 7, 2011 21:34:29 GMT -5
We've been seeing the same guys every single week on Raw for years now. In the early to mid 90s, you would see guys like Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels, Undertaker on TV once a month in a match. Those were the days you could honestly judge who is a draw and who wasn't because every episode was different. Today's booking is so different. You're almost guaranteed to see every top star every week.
Not one single guy will boost the ratings. Cena is champion, or isn't, doesn't matter, because he's still the main event guy every episode. It will take a drastic change to the product and they way they present themselves to change their viewership.
Examples:
Vince giving away a million dollars a week didn't boost ratings The Nexus debuting didn't boost ratings HHH coming back didn't boost ratings Finding out who was Vince's son didn't boost ratings D-Grade guest hosts didn't boost ratings Ending the brand split didn't boost ratings (yet) The Rock returning didn't boost ratings long term
It seems some people are expecting the numbers to shoot up this summer simply because for once, the majority of us loved the CM Punk angle. In a community thats mostly negative (not here, i'm talking overall). our approval of the product seems to think it will equal more viewers. Sure, the MITB PPV saw an increase, but their PPV business is doing bad right now, due to very high price, internet streaming, and lack of value. Honestly, the casual fan is not missing out on much by not watching the PPVs, for a lack of fresh matches and because they give away so much on free TV.
Face it, the WWE is stuck with their built in audience for this era, which isn't going away anytime soon. Their job is to turn the roughly 5 million viewers into paying customers, not simply people who tune in for the free Raws and go on with their lives. PPV buys, live gates, merchandise, DVD sales, they have 5 million potential purchases there.
Comparing ratings from today to the beloved Attitude Era is wrong because the rating systems has changed and DVR's are everywhere these days. Sure, the point system is half what it was 10+ years ago, but the viewership isn't too far off. Besides, that was a fad, those fans were bandwagon jumpers who simply found something else "cool" to watch. They aren't coming back.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Sept 7, 2011 22:02:53 GMT -5
And unlike most I think Punk staying off TV would have been even more damaging, and that whats happening now isn't even a failure. They've got another top face close to or at Cena's level on RAW. I disagree. Punk staying off television would have made him a bigger star, IMO. On the other hand, I can see it working the other way: More viewers tuning out because the "real" champion who was put over as a huge deal isn't appearing, and the guys still on the show will feel decidedly secondary, especially when they're feuding over a "fake" world title. And assuming any new viewers hear about this angle from the word-of-mouth and decide to start watching again to find out what's going on... I think they'd be even less likely to stick around if this big, hyped-up new star doesn't even appear. It's too late now to ever really know for certain how it would've worked out, but I don't blame WWE for striking while the iron was hot.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Sept 7, 2011 22:13:38 GMT -5
He was getting attention. Common sense says he needs to be on the show.
Why on earth would you have a guy get a decent mainstream buzz, leave with the title, and keep him off the show while guys fight for another title? He was the one people wanted to see. Hell, the RAW afterwards everyone was in the RAW thread waiting for Punk, or at the very least Cena or Vince to talk about MITB. That going on for more than a few weeks would have killed any buzz the angle got. And just showing up at Comic con or other things like that wasn't enough.
Not to mention it doesn't work trying to turn him face. Imagine any other face leaving in protest and not showing up, just because. The threat of him leaving with the title worked when he was heel Punk, but his "Voice of the voiceless" would have just been bullshit if he hadn't shown pretty soon afterwards.
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 7, 2011 22:43:58 GMT -5
Why are you guys assuming that Punk would be a total non-presence?
The idea would be that Punk wouldn't "officially" be there...after all, in kayfabe, he had let his contract run out.
However, the point would be to show a situation where Punk's shadow and influence is over everything.
Think of the possibilities:
-The roster looks at the chaotic situation as a chance to make their own marks. Lower card/mid card guys start trying to go after the "big dogs" in this new, destabilized environment.
-The US Champ uses the chance to declare his title the new most important in the company now that the big gold is gone, which helps the belt prestige.
-The roster, even most of the babyfaces, turn on Cena, feeling that by trying to keep his honor intact (not letting Johnny Ace interfere at MitB) he allowed this all to happen.
-Punk still appears, but not in an official capacity. He might be in the crowd one week as a paying customer. He might appear via video tape another week. Maybe he even "pirates the transmission" one week to get his message out. Maybe he even becomes arrogant enough that he starts leaving clues/hints, hoping that some fresh talent will find him and attempt to bring the fight to him. And, obviously, he wouldn't be away forever, just long enough that the air of mystery and confusion is maintained.
Remember, people weren't JUST invested in seeing Punk himself, they were invested in seeing what he was preaching: an overturning of the status quo, the "World Turned Upside Down", things being changed forever.
Again, by doing what they did, the status quo was back in place IMMEDIATELY, completely missing the entire point.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Sept 7, 2011 22:48:24 GMT -5
The thing is Punk "showing up" ruins the illusion that he's gone. Cena already did the crowd thing.
It was played so real it had to be all or nothing. Either he's there or they don't mention him, and they chose option for basically 2 weeks. Which is why the fantasy booking was just that. Realistically I thought they did about as well as they could in handling him coming back, as that was a good moment.
And "status quo" has been so overused I'm not even sure what the hell people are trying to say when they use it, other than "Cena/Orton are important still". Punk's change he preached about is not the stuff that would change RAW's TV output in any meaningful way. He was talking primarily about backstage stuff and who they hired/fired. That doesn't exactly translate into groundbreaking television.
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,009
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Post by Celgress on Sept 7, 2011 22:50:40 GMT -5
I'll say a 2.7 next week, RAW has been bland as of late.
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,009
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Post by Celgress on Sept 7, 2011 22:52:02 GMT -5
The thing is Punk "showing up" ruins the illusion that he's gone..... bingo
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Post by HMARK Center on Sept 7, 2011 23:03:17 GMT -5
The thing is Punk "showing up" ruins the illusion that he's gone. Cena already did the crowd thing. It was played so real it had to be all or nothing. Either he's there or they don't mention him, and they chose option for basically 2 weeks. Which is why the fantasy booking was just that. Realistically I thought they did about as well as they could in handling him coming back, as that was a good moment. And "status quo" has been so overused I'm not even sure what the hell people are trying to say when they use it, other than "Cena/Orton are important still". Punk's change he preached about is not the stuff that would change RAW's TV output in any meaningful way. He was talking primarily about backstage stuff and who they hired/fired. That doesn't exactly translate into groundbreaking television. But that's what you have to do to fully capitalize on the angle. "Status quo" is pretty simple in the WWE: Raw has basically followed the same format and show layout for a decade now, and WWE has been on a consistent run of not highlighting anything but their main eventers for ages. Overturn that, and you create buzz. Am I say having Cena job to a midcarder ever week? Absolutely not, but cause some chaos! Shake it up! People like me watched a couple episodes of Raw because we thought something big was coming, now we see it's just the same show it was when we stopped watching to begin with. It's on the writers to come up with something interesting in this situation, and they flat-out failed to do it.
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Post by primetime110 on Sept 7, 2011 23:06:07 GMT -5
Last week Punk's match lost around 200,000 viewers while Cena's gained around 400,000. The "people are tired of Cena in the main event" arguement doesn't really wash with me until the numbers start backing it up. It's the midcard/diva segments that are killing the overall ratings right now. Punk's match lost viewers because it was Miz. Fans know that's a snoozefest. If punk is so over then it wouldn't matter who he wrestled. If HHH or Cena wrestled miz in the same time slot ratings wouldn't have gone down IMO. Him being without Cena or trips in the same segment and ratings went down is telling. Again, IMO.
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MrBRulzOK
Wade Wilson
Mr No-Pants Heathen
Something Witty Here.
Posts: 26,719
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Sept 7, 2011 23:07:53 GMT -5
Judging from the ratings last week WWE has completely made it to where absolutely nobody except Randy Orton, John Cena, CM Punk, and Triple H matter. Last week despite having an awesome match nearly 300,000 viewers switched over during Randy Orton vs Dolph Ziggler. And then later on 200,000 did the exact same thing with CM Punk vs Miz.
That's bad. The week before that they had even more people also fleeing in droves when the current World Champion, Alberto Del Rio, was facing John Morrison. Again, that's not a good sign.
I think WWE has been booking the midcard so badly for so long that it has gotten to the point where the audience simply doesn't have interest in watching any match that's not between the main event talents. And they have nobody to blame but themselves for it. By refusing to elevate any of their talents so stubbornly for so long aside from their chosen ones and Punk, who basically got over to the degree he did by having all of the stars align, they have made it where people simplydon't care or believe in the midcard anymore.
And why should they? In this past week's eight man tag match only Cena, Christian, and Sheamus were made to look like any sort of threat. Yeah, Swagger tapped out a few guys, but that was killed when Cena beat him in seconds by countering his ankle lock into his STFU. And then to drive the point home further they had him lay out Alberto Del Rio afterwards too for good measure.
WWE is slowly eroding away their business with decisions like this and I think it's finally starting to show. Maybe once the quarter hours for this week come out then we'll have a better idea of if this trend continues. And if it does then they better do something and do something quick.
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Sept 7, 2011 23:10:57 GMT -5
The thing is Punk "showing up" ruins the illusion that he's gone. Cena already did the crowd thing. It was played so real it had to be all or nothing. Either he's there or they don't mention him, and they chose option for basically 2 weeks. Which is why the fantasy booking was just that. Realistically I thought they did about as well as they could in handling him coming back, as that was a good moment. And "status quo" has been so overused I'm not even sure what the hell people are trying to say when they use it, other than "Cena/Orton are important still". Punk's change he preached about is not the stuff that would change RAW's TV output in any meaningful way. He was talking primarily about backstage stuff and who they hired/fired. That doesn't exactly translate into groundbreaking television. But that's what you have to do to fully capitalize on the angle. "Status quo" is pretty simple in the WWE: Raw has basically followed the same format and show layout for a decade now, and WWE has been on a consistent run of not highlighting anything but their main eventers for ages. Overturn that, and you create buzz. Am I say having Cena job to a midcarder ever week? Absolutely not, but cause some chaos! Shake it up! People like me watched a couple episodes of Raw because we thought something big was coming, now we see it's just the same show it was when we stopped watching to begin with. It's on the writers to come up with something interesting in this situation, and they flat-out failed to do it. I think they have come up with something interesting. It was just wasn't "CM Punk defends the title in the indy's" or that nonsense people were coming up with when this whole thing started. All I'm saying is the "I'm leaving" angle from Punk wasn't a good approach as a Face/tweener fighting for change. It was perfect for evil Nexus Punk on his way out the door, but when his character changed he kinda needed to be back on RAW pretty quickly. Fans in general are put off by contract situations, especially from higher paid athletes, and eventually it would have just been Punk holding out on his contract like a star football player would.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2011 23:11:22 GMT -5
I'll say it, Punk isn't a ratings draw. Going out and cutting interviews every week sounding like a whiney internet smark isn't going to bring in new viewers. WWE should've never killed R-Truth's push. Now that was a money maker. Agreed. This whole centering things on Punk approach just isn't working. And yeah, he can sell T-shirts. But so can Zack Ryder and as much as I love the guy it'd be insane to up and make him the centerpiece of Raw out of nowhere.
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,009
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Post by Celgress on Sept 7, 2011 23:13:36 GMT -5
....I think WWE has been booking the midcard so badly for so long that it has gotten to the point where the audience simply doesn't have interest in watching any match that's not between the main event talents. And they have nobody to blame but themselves for it. By refusing to elevate any of their talents so stubbornly for so long aside from their chosen ones and Punk, who basically got over to the degree he did by having all of the stars align, they have made it where people simplydon't care or believe in the midcard anymore..... Bravo my friend, I couldn't have put it better myself. There you have it folks, the most important thing that is wrong with the E summed up in nice little package.
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,009
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Post by Celgress on Sept 7, 2011 23:15:54 GMT -5
I'll say it, Punk isn't a ratings draw. Going out and cutting interviews every week sounding like a whiney internet smark isn't going to bring in new viewers. WWE should've never killed R-Truth's push. Now that was a money maker. Agreed. This whole centering things on Punk approach just isn't working. And yeah, he can sell T-shirts. But so can Zack Ryder and as much as I love the guy it'd be insane to up and make him the centerpiece of Raw out of nowhere. great point
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Post by joebob27 on Sept 7, 2011 23:31:41 GMT -5
Well, guess what, if it isn't working with him, it ain't working with Cena because Cena has presided over a long extended ratings slump, with the exception of when Batista injured him and he wasn't around.
And obviously Cena sells merch too so obviously he must be in the Zach Ryder boat with Punk.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Sept 7, 2011 23:40:55 GMT -5
The thing is Punk "showing up" ruins the illusion that he's gone. Cena already did the crowd thing. It was played so real it had to be all or nothing. Either he's there or they don't mention him, and they chose option for basically 2 weeks. Which is why the fantasy booking was just that. Realistically I thought they did about as well as they could in handling him coming back, as that was a good moment. And "status quo" has been so overused I'm not even sure what the hell people are trying to say when they use it, other than "Cena/Orton are important still". Punk's change he preached about is not the stuff that would change RAW's TV output in any meaningful way. He was talking primarily about backstage stuff and who they hired/fired. That doesn't exactly translate into groundbreaking television. But that's what you have to do to fully capitalize on the angle. "Status quo" is pretty simple in the WWE: Raw has basically followed the same format and show layout for a decade now, and WWE has been on a consistent run of not highlighting anything but their main eventers for ages. Overturn that, and you create buzz. Am I say having Cena job to a midcarder ever week? Absolutely not, but cause some chaos! Shake it up! People like me watched a couple episodes of Raw because we thought something big was coming, now we see it's just the same show it was when we stopped watching to begin with. It's on the writers to come up with something interesting in this situation, and they flat-out failed to do it. But you're basing this on the assumption that the various WWE midcarders could work as effective stars if only they were given more time and booked to look more important. What if that isn't the case? What if the reason the vast majority of WWE's audience doesn't care about Dolph Ziggler or Daniel Bryan or whoever isn't that the evil corporate management is making them look bad, but because they genuinely don't have what it takes to connect with mainstream fans? This is the same fallacy that lead to the inordinate praise for the Nexus angle around these parts; so many smarkier fans are so familiar with and tired of the "status quo" of Cena/Orton/HHH/etc. that the elevation of ANYONE up the card is heralded as a wonderful change, even when it's guys whom its blisteringly obvious aren't good enough to pull their own weight as main event draws. Hell, the only reason we're able to talk about the current product boosting buyrates at all is because they tanked so badly during last year's Nexus push that the current, still-mediocre numbers are an improvement by comparison. WWE's trusted Punk enough to elevate him into their handful of top guys. It's paid off about as well as can be expected; he's no Austin, and he's not even another Cena, but he looks set to be able to settle on around Orton's level, which is about right for taking Edge's vacant spot. And he's generated a healthy amount of buzz while moving up the card, but I think that has a lot more to do with Punk's own charisma than with there being any untapped audience that was just waiting for a pro wrestler to show up making "shoot" comments on TV and referencing people in indie promotions.
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Post by moneyman20 on Sept 8, 2011 0:09:06 GMT -5
Judging from the ratings last week WWE has completely made it to where absolutely nobody except Randy Orton, John Cena, CM Punk, and Triple H matter. Last week despite having an awesome match nearly 300,000 viewers switched over during Randy Orton vs Dolph Ziggler. And then later on 200,000 did the exact same thing with CM Punk vs Miz. That's bad. The week before that they had even more people also fleeing in droves when the current World Champion, Alberto Del Rio, was facing John Morrison. Again, that's not a good sign. I think WWE has been booking the midcard so badly for so long that it has gotten to the point where the audience simply doesn't have interest in watching any match that's not between the main event talents. And they have nobody to blame but themselves for it. By refusing to elevate any of their talents so stubbornly for so long aside from their chosen ones and Punk, who basically got over to the degree he did by having all of the stars align, they have made it where people simplydon't care or believe in the midcard anymore. And why should they? In this past week's eight man tag match only Cena, Christian, and Sheamus were made to look like any sort of threat. Yeah, Swagger tapped out a few guys, but that was killed when Cena beat him in seconds by countering his ankle lock into his STFU. And then to drive the point home further they had him lay out Alberto Del Rio afterwards too for good measure. WWE is slowly eroding away their business with decisions like this and I think it's finally starting to show. Maybe once the quarter hours for this week come out then we'll have a better idea of if this trend continues. And if it does then they better do something and do something quick. That right there, is the perfect post to show why the ratings for Raw will not get any higher than the range they are now. They've given off the impression that only the main event angles matter and nothing else and the audience responds in kind and the ratings consistently show that when poeple tune out in droves after the ME scene's segments go off.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
Posts: 5,770
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Sept 8, 2011 2:44:25 GMT -5
According to the quarter by quarter breakdowns, the highest rated segments on the show were the opening with Punk/Nash/HHH (a strong opening), Punk vs. Truth, and the main event -- although that kind of crashed a bit. So, those saying "Punk isn't drawing" are wrong in the context that out of the ratings they're currently getting (discounting the Miz match), Punk is involved in the highest rated or 2nd highest rated segments every week. He's not breaking any records, mind you, but he's not "failing" by any means.
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Post by Ryushinku on Sept 8, 2011 4:02:49 GMT -5
Footy season's gonna be nasty.
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Post by machomuta on Sept 8, 2011 5:09:06 GMT -5
.........the main event is once again Cena. Punk - HHH is still the main feud on Raw. The Punk - HHH feud have gotten way more airtime then the Rio- Cena feud. So you really cant blame Cena for the ratings drop.
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