Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2012 23:50:41 GMT -5
I think it should be left intact for people in the future to enjoy. They can watch their undertaker streak DVD with all of taker's mania matches which I'm sure they'll put out when he's done.
It isn't something that will ever happen again.
Also I don't think it'll do much for anyone that would break it anyway. It'd just disappoint a lot of people.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Mar 7, 2012 23:51:28 GMT -5
No, Good God, NO. I've said it before and I'll repeat it untill my face is purple: Not everything has to be about putting over an "up-and-coming guy" |
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Andy Martin
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Andy Martin on Mar 8, 2012 0:12:16 GMT -5
There is absolutely no reason for the streak to end. Retire with it.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Mar 8, 2012 0:28:06 GMT -5
But winning a series of matches and then retiring isn't much of a story. Going undefeated on the Grandest stage of them all, beating every top guy in his industry and going out on top isn't much of a story? Gather round kids and let me tell you the story of a guy who was awesome at mania, beat everybody for twenty years and then retired. Oh wait, that was the whole story. |
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Post by Error on Mar 8, 2012 0:33:02 GMT -5
Going undefeated on the Grandest stage of them all, beating every top guy in his industry and going out on top isn't much of a story? Gather round kids and let me tell you the story of a guy who was awesome at mania, beat everybody for twenty years and then retired. Oh wait, that was the whole story. Yeah, not like there is a story surrounding each match along with the matches themselves, how things got harder and harder and each match meant more and more yet he still kept winning. It's just he won a lot. |
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Post by MichaelMartini on Mar 8, 2012 0:50:17 GMT -5
Gather round kids and let me tell you the story of a guy who was awesome at mania, beat everybody for twenty years and then retired. Oh wait, that was the whole story. Yeah, not like there is a story surrounding each match along with the matches themselves, how things got harder and harder and each match meant more and more yet he still kept winning. It's just he won a lot. It's not like a think it's a bad idea for it remain intact. I just think it could be used for something. An undeafted streak is only impressive in a real sport |
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mattperiolat
King Koopa
Thank you, Brodie... for everything.
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Post by mattperiolat on Mar 8, 2012 0:53:04 GMT -5
I cannot believe we're even having this debate.
The Streak is something very very rare. Not even WWE realized that Taker was undefeated until he got to around 10-0 against Flair at Mania 19. Thing just took on a life of its own and became part of Taker's legend.
IF they were going to break it, they needed to do it long before now, against say Orton or HBK. At this point, I can honestly say if Aytch or Cena broke it, you'd lose a big part of the audience on the spot because of either a.) hardcore Taker fans being royally pissed at WWE or b.) it really does not help either guy.
Let The Streak stand. It will never be eclipsed by anyone between injuries and changing schedules and, frankly, I don't see WWE even trying to book a new streak. 20 years is a LONG time.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Mar 8, 2012 1:35:56 GMT -5
Here's some food for thought. Piper never got pinned for how many years? I don't know the stats but it's crazy. Has Warrior ever lost a match? Who cares? These legends accomplishments are all but forgotten but everyone remembers Hogan slamming Andre.
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ibdude
Don Corleone
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Post by ibdude on Mar 8, 2012 3:01:53 GMT -5
I think win or lose, when he's finally ready to end his career he should go out at WrestleMania. Whether the streak ends or not it should end with him in the ring, the gong sounding, the lights going out, coming back on, and he's gone. And that will be the end of a great career.
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Post by dirtyoldman on Mar 8, 2012 3:31:30 GMT -5
If hypothetically, the streak ended, who would then have the biggest wrestlemania streak? Is RVD 4-0? Um, if the Streak was ended then the person with the longest undefeated streak would be The Undertaker, and this would be so up until someone won one more than him. yeah, I know what your saying but i meant who was undefeated as well. Probably didnt make that too clear but would i be right saying RVD would be the most undefeated guy? |
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kdawg
Bubba Ho-Tep
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Post by kdawg on Mar 8, 2012 4:15:09 GMT -5
If he retires without making someone's career by giving him the streak, then the whole thing is pointless. I don't understand this reverence for an "undefeated" streak in a predetermined sport. The streak is a tool to get a guy over, nothing more, nothing less. If Undertaker's a big enough mark for himself that he doesn't see that, then that blows my mind. I agree with this. If there is one guy in this business that is old school enough to do the so-called "time honored tradition" of passing the torch, its Taker. As someone else said, it is today's equivalent of Hogan slamming Andre. Its not like we look at Joe Dimagio's hit streak of games in MLB as 56-1. No, he holds the record of 56 consecutive games with a hit. Taker could have 20-something consecutive wins! His one loss as a passing of the torch moment. Flairs last match (full-time, not TNA which I don't consider counting) was a loss, HBK, loss, Austin, loss vs. Rock at WM 19. I certainly don't feel that Undertakers career would be summed up by that one loss, or it would "de-value" him. No one will ever come close to going 20-whatever wins in a row at WM. That will always be a part of his legacy. If Taker/WWE decide to have him retire with it, cool. But I think Taker himself will want to pass the torch to someone eventually. |
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Mar 8, 2012 4:23:57 GMT -5
Nobody will ever come close to doing this again. You cant piss this away. I know people think they "know the business" and think the Streak is a great way to "put someone over" but this is a great way to retire an absolute legend. Ive said it before. To break the Streak is to literally break it into pieces. Suddenly all the matches that came before now stop being judged as a collective and just become a handful of matches for the sake of it. Matches like Giant Gonzalez, Jimmy Snuka, Mark Henry, Big Boss Man, they become completely worthless rather than being part of this phenomenal and unique streak.
Who was ever undefeated at Starrcade? Who was ever undefeated at Bound For Glory? You get my point?
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Post by MichaelMartini on Mar 8, 2012 6:03:14 GMT -5
Nobody will ever come close to doing this again. You cant piss this away. I know people think they "know the business" and think the Streak is a great way to "put someone over" but this is a great way to retire an absolute legend. Ive said it before. To break the Streak is to literally break it into pieces. Suddenly all the matches that came before now stop being judged as a collective and just become a handful of matches for the sake of it. Matches like Giant Gonzalez, Jimmy Snuka, Mark Henry, Big Boss Man, they become completely worthless rather than being part of this phenomenal and unique streak. Who was ever undefeated at Starrcade? Who was ever undefeated at Bound For Glory? You get my point? Honestly I don't know because I don't follow stats in fake sports. (I can't believe your line of thinking. That one loss would diminish that many consecutive wins in a row. I'm sure Mark appreciates the fact that you can dismiss his career and accompishments off one loss) Hogan did the job for Taker back when he was a rookie and could barely do anything and you could count Hogan's losses on one hand. |
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Mar 8, 2012 6:29:29 GMT -5
I just feel like you're sacrificing a lot more than you stand to gain. As has been mentioned- you've got the 'story' of the Streak, which has become its own entity; in a way it's less a part of Taker's legacy than it is even for probably fans of the man and his career himself. Sure, it's a fake sport, sure it's fake stats; but people get behind that stuff- hell Goldberg built his entire career on a fake streak.
You put a blemish on that, you lose a piece of it. Yeah, if he goes 20-1 or whatever, you'll still be able to say " he went undefeated for X amount of years"; and that'll still be impressive, but you'll never be able to say he went UNDEFEATED, which in itself is storyline material or promo material, or video package stuff they could use from now on. Once ya break that, it's not the same.
You're throwing away a lot more that one guy's made up statistics when you end it and what's the benefit?
The whole 'time honored tradition' deal? ' Passing the torch?' To who? Unless you know there's a guy you're gonna make the next face of your company, the next Hogan, Austin, Cena, etc; and that'll be the one thing to really cement him in the eyes of the fan etc, what's the point? To put ' a young guy over' that may flame out in a year? To have someone end it that creative may book right into oblivion as they have probably ninety percent of the guys they've pushed in the last few years?
Ya risk backlash from the fans for even doing it. In a way, what might look like putting a guy over may be instead saddling him with an entirely unfair burden. He'd get the blame for it too if he did fail to live up to the expectations or hype- " They gave him the Undertaker's streak, and he still couldn't get over/move merchandise/start another boom.." You know he would. That might not create a star, but it might snuff one out.
And even say a guy does succeed, ok it's a hell of an accomplishment to list, a neat little footnote, but 1) if a dude is truly gonna get to that level, he'll likely do so on its own merits and 2) if fake stats don't matter, then why would saying 'I ended the streak' really matter either?
You just stand to lose a lot more than you gain.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2012 6:31:35 GMT -5
Nobody will ever come close to doing this again. You cant piss this away. I know people think they "know the business" and think the Streak is a great way to "put someone over" but this is a great way to retire an absolute legend. Ive said it before. To break the Streak is to literally break it into pieces. Suddenly all the matches that came before now stop being judged as a collective and just become a handful of matches for the sake of it. Matches like Giant Gonzalez, Jimmy Snuka, Mark Henry, Big Boss Man, they become completely worthless rather than being part of this phenomenal and unique streak. Who was ever undefeated at Starrcade? Who was ever undefeated at Bound For Glory? You get my point? Honestly I don't know because I don't follow stats in fake sports. (I can't believe your line of thinking. That one loss would diminish that many consecutive wins in a row. I'm sure Mark appreciates the fact that you can dismiss his career and accompishments off one loss) Hogan did the job for Taker back when he was a rookie and could barely do anything and you could count Hogan's losses on one hand. Okay, seriously, if you have such a huge hang up on nothing in wrestling mattering because it's predetermined, why do you watch it? It's not like titles or feuds mean anything more than the streak does. |
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Mar 8, 2012 6:53:15 GMT -5
Nobody will ever come close to doing this again. You cant piss this away. I know people think they "know the business" and think the Streak is a great way to "put someone over" but this is a great way to retire an absolute legend. Ive said it before. To break the Streak is to literally break it into pieces. Suddenly all the matches that came before now stop being judged as a collective and just become a handful of matches for the sake of it. Matches like Giant Gonzalez, Jimmy Snuka, Mark Henry, Big Boss Man, they become completely worthless rather than being part of this phenomenal and unique streak. Who was ever undefeated at Starrcade? Who was ever undefeated at Bound For Glory? You get my point? Honestly I don't know because I don't follow stats in fake sports. (I can't believe your line of thinking. That one loss would diminish that many consecutive wins in a row. I'm sure Mark appreciates the fact that you can dismiss his career and accompishments off one loss) Hogan did the job for Taker back when he was a rookie and could barely do anything and you could count Hogan's losses on one hand. Im not saying it destroys Takers career, but the Streak is the crowning jewel ion the most unique career in wrestling history. I dont see what is gained from having it broken, but I do see what is gained by leaving it intact. There are HUNDREDS of ways to create stars without touching the streak. And yeah, we get it, its fake. If you keep looking at something as fake, then youre never gonna really grasp the concept of stuff like what Im putting out here. Watching wrestling with a defeatist attitude like that takes the point away from it. Why are you watching if the concept of winning and losing within the context of the storyline means nothing to you? I want to see John Cena win at WrestleMania. Not because I think its "good for business", not because I want him to "go over", but because Im more of a fan of Cena right now than The Rock. I want CM Punk to win at Mania because hes my favourite WWE guy, not because I think he is a draw or Jericho needs to "put him over". My point concerning the Streak as a whole is that the worst matches of the group dont really hold up on their own merit. Jake Roberts was a DQ finish, Gonzalez was a train wreck, Mark Henry wasnt much good back then and so on. As individual matches, they mean very little. But they get a rub from the matches like Michaels, HHH, Orton, Kane, Edge etc. by being involved in this massive unbeaten run that will never happen again in wrestling. The Undertaker forever being unbeaten at WrestleMania will hang over WrestleMania and add to its mystique. This one guy spent his entire career in the WWE and never once got beaten at their marquee event. It's always going to be something for younger superstars in storyline to aspire to. It makes WrestleMania look bigger, as people hold an undefeated streak at WrestleMania in such high regard, showing how much a win at WrestleMania means. |
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Post by WorkingInAColeMine on Mar 8, 2012 7:04:56 GMT -5
So Rocky's wins impress you as much as Ali's? Within the context of the story, yes. Sometimes the hero should get to ride off into the sunset triumphant. The original ending to Rocky V was that he dies. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2012 7:25:10 GMT -5
Honestly I don't know because I don't follow stats in fake sports. (I can't believe your line of thinking. That one loss would diminish that many consecutive wins in a row. I'm sure Mark appreciates the fact that you can dismiss his career and accompishments off one loss) Hogan did the job for Taker back when he was a rookie and could barely do anything and you could count Hogan's losses on one hand. Im not saying it destroys Takers career, but the Streak is the crowning jewel ion the most unique career in wrestling history. I dont see what is gained from having it broken, but I do see what is gained by leaving it intact. There are HUNDREDS of ways to create stars without touching the streak. And yeah, we get it, its fake. If you keep looking at something as fake, then youre never gonna really grasp the concept of stuff like what Im putting out here. Watching wrestling with a defeatist attitude like that takes the point away from it. Why are you watching if the concept of winning and losing within the context of the storyline means nothing to you? I want to see John Cena win at WrestleMania. Not because I think its "good for business", not because I want him to "go over", but because Im more of a fan of Cena right now than The Rock. I want CM Punk to win at Mania because hes my favourite WWE guy, not because I think he is a draw or Jericho needs to "put him over". My point concerning the Streak as a whole is that the worst matches of the group dont really hold up on their own merit. Jake Roberts was a DQ finish, Gonzalez was a train wreck, Mark Henry wasnt much good back then and so on. As individual matches, they mean very little. But they get a rub from the matches like Michaels, HHH, Orton, Kane, Edge etc. by being involved in this massive unbeaten run that will never happen again in wrestling. The Undertaker forever being unbeaten at WrestleMania will hang over WrestleMania and add to its mystique. This one guy spent his entire career in the WWE and never once got beaten at their marquee event. It's always going to be something for younger superstars in storyline to aspire to. It makes WrestleMania look bigger, as people hold an undefeated streak at WrestleMania in such high regard, showing how much a win at WrestleMania means. Just as a bit of correction, he pinned Roberts. Gonzales is the one he beat by DQ. |
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Post by MichaelMartini on Mar 8, 2012 7:30:16 GMT -5
I just feel like you're sacrificing a lot more than you stand to gain. As has been mentioned- you've got the 'story' of the Streak, which has become its own entity; in a way it's less a part of Taker's legacy than it is even for probably fans of the man and his career himself. Sure, it's a fake sport, sure it's fake stats; but people get behind that stuff- hell Goldberg built his entire career on a fake streak. You put a blemish on that, you lose a piece of it. Yeah, if he goes 20-1 or whatever, you'll still be able to say " he went undefeated for X amount of years"; and that'll still be impressive, but you'll never be able to say he went UNDEFEATED, which in itself is storyline material or promo material, or video package stuff they could use from now on. Once ya break that, it's not the same. You're throwing away a lot more that one guy's made up statistics when you end it and what's the benefit? The whole 'time honored tradition' deal? ' Passing the torch?' To who? Unless you know there's a guy you're gonna make the next face of your company, the next Hogan, Austin, Cena, etc; and that'll be the one thing to really cement him in the eyes of the fan etc, what's the point? To put ' a young guy over' that may flame out in a year? To have someone end it that creative may book right into oblivion as they have probably ninety percent of the guys they've pushed in the last few years? Ya risk backlash from the fans for even doing it. In a way, what might look like putting a guy over may be instead saddling him with an entirely unfair burden. He'd get the blame for it too if he did fail to live up to the expectations or hype- " They gave him the Undertaker's streak, and he still couldn't get over/move merchandise/start another boom.." You know he would. That might not create a star, but it might snuff one out. And even say a guy does succeed, ok it's a hell of an accomplishment to list, a neat little footnote, but 1) if a dude is truly gonna get to that level, he'll likely do so on its own merits and 2) if fake stats don't matter, then why would saying 'I ended the streak' really matter either? You just stand to lose a lot more than you gain. You sound like you want to maintain the status quo at all costs, like they're doing now. No big risks because things might not work out is not the right way to do business. That's like Vince going let's not do Wrestlemania because Starcade might do better. It's the kind of logic that has Verne Gagne let go of Hogan because he did a movie. Let's not have Jericho beat Austin and Rock in one night because he might leave. Playing is safe is boring and boring is the worst thing you could possibly be. Besides, this isn't going to the next face of the company, it would be for the next big heel. It's Hogan/Andre in reverse. |
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Mar 8, 2012 7:35:23 GMT -5
There are a million things you can do to break the status quo. But you dont have to sacrifice the streak to do so.
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