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Post by norsisclouds on Apr 7, 2012 12:49:26 GMT -5
I don't agree with this at all really. Kelly is over IN SPITE of creative not because of them. She got put into the match to win the divas title in the first place because fans overwhelmingly voted for her against Beth Phoenix and Eve. That was when her push started. It wasn't because Creative decided to just put her over all of the other divas for no reason. The fans voted for her and got what they wanted, Kelly as champ. That mystique did quickly deteriorate with her horrible wrestling performances as smark crowds turned against her, but she still got the biggest responses on regular RAWs not to mention free publicity doing MAXIM, Price is Right etc... which WWE loves to see. I can't stand Kelly, but she has some type of a charismatic appeal to the crowd due to her good looks that got her over when other divas could not. She also played the babyface in peril very well in other angles--which made her a good asset in Edge's world title feud...which also only happened because she was so over with the crowd. She was a jobber for like 6 years before she ever got a push for anything, and it only happened after the crowd showed an interest in her. Again--I'm not a Kelly fan, can't stand her, and wouldn't care if she was gone tomorrow--but this is what I remember happening. Pretty much this. However, capitalizing on that popularity did end up jeopardizing it though. Remember when they tried to push her as a serious wrestler and fans crapped on it (Crazy Kelly attacking Beth)? Ever since then, she pretty much lost that charm with the crowd, so she went straight back to status quo. Her push to the top made people realize that she sucked in the ring and today fans seems to groan when she gets a push. Yea, I agree with this. Basically, they screwed the push by getting behind her so hard. It seemed like they didn't have someone in there going "Hey wait a minute, we can't do this because it will expose her skill level. Let's do it this way." If they DID have someone in there like that, we would've seen Beth vs Kelly vs Natalya three-way matches for the titles, or fatal fourways with Kelly either as champ or chasing. They could hide her flaws as a wrestler using the other women, and have her eventually pick up a win at some big PPV to the cheers of the crowd. Basically, let her spend the whole match bumping/getting beaten up while the other ladies wrestled. It's EXACTLY what they did for Trish Stratus for 3 years. But no one was smart enough to figure out they could do this with Kelly and get her over even more as the great champion. Instead they exposed her in 7 minute matches on PVPs against Beth solo and 2 minute tags on RAW. It's their own fault really. They didn't have someone in there like Finlay who could say "OK let's book it this way and have her do this." like he did for Trish...and it's true...that worked for her, and they could've done the same thing for Kelly to get her over, but they didn't have someone in there to tell them how to play the crowd with good booking. |
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Arrow on Apr 7, 2012 12:50:02 GMT -5
Hell Eve an AJ now gets a better reaction than her, but I guess people don't seem to care. To be fair, audiences treated Eve with complete apathy until she was thrown into a storyline with Zack Ryder, John Cena, and Kane. I don't recall Kelly getting anything like that. Putting Divas together together with the men always seems to work for them. I wonder why they don't do it more often. |
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Post by norsisclouds on Apr 7, 2012 12:52:20 GMT -5
Hell Eve an AJ now gets a better reaction than her, but I guess people don't seem to care. To be fair, audiences treated Eve with complete apathy until she was thrown into a storyline with Zack Ryder, John Cena, and Kane. I don't recall Kelly getting anything like that. She still got apathy even in that storyline until she kissed Cena. I remember her segments coming out to the ring and Kane would attack her, or Ryder with her and she would get absolute crickets. She came out for a match once right before Kane attacked her and during his attack the crowd didn't care. They just sat on their hands. Eve has no crowd connection. The only reason why people respond to her now is because of the hoeski chant/slut shaming. It doesn't have anything to do with her ability as an individual, because no one gave a damn for the longest time until the Cena kiss. |
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Post by That Mickie Fan on Apr 7, 2012 13:38:09 GMT -5
In Layla's defense, she wasn't face for too long, so the crowd couldn't decide who to cheer for. They didn't like Michelle, but they also didn't see a reason to cheer for Layla. I think once she returns, she'll work more as a face and the crowd will get used to it. Kind of like when Melina returned from her injury in 2008. I can see that argument, but really if Laycool were as over as we now think of them in the first place (I admit they were getting great heat tormenting Mickie James) the split would not have been greeted with massive indifference by the majority of fans, and people would have been really into the match at Extreme Rules. Layla should also have been able to pull off the sympathetic babyface angle against the long detested Michelle, who most fans considered at the very least to be overbearing and obnoxious. But she couldn't do that. I don't blame that on booking or writing, that is down to the wrestler. These kinds of splits are formulaic and have been around since the golden era of wrestling. I understand that people like Layla, but that kind of thing is down to the performer. It shouldn't be so hard for someone to split from an annoying heel tag team after their leader turns on them to become a cheered face. But it was...and it's because she just wasn't that over. I maintain that while the IWC likes her and I think she is a great talent, her connection to the crowd was greatly exaggerated, and part of that is her fault. It can't all be on the writers, this kind of stuff isn't rocket science. Blind Layla hating I see. She may not get the Pops that divas of the past got, but Layla was pretty freaking over. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 13:49:00 GMT -5
I can see that argument, but really if Laycool were as over as we now think of them in the first place (I admit they were getting great heat tormenting Mickie James) the split would not have been greeted with massive indifference by the majority of fans, and people would have been really into the match at Extreme Rules. Layla should also have been able to pull off the sympathetic babyface angle against the long detested Michelle, who most fans considered at the very least to be overbearing and obnoxious. But she couldn't do that. I don't blame that on booking or writing, that is down to the wrestler. These kinds of splits are formulaic and have been around since the golden era of wrestling. I understand that people like Layla, but that kind of thing is down to the performer. It shouldn't be so hard for someone to split from an annoying heel tag team after their leader turns on them to become a cheered face. But it was...and it's because she just wasn't that over. I maintain that while the IWC likes her and I think she is a great talent, her connection to the crowd was greatly exaggerated, and part of that is her fault. It can't all be on the writers, this kind of stuff isn't rocket science. Blind Layla hating I see. She may not get the Pops that divas of the past got, but Layla was pretty freaking over. I think Layla's hot, hard working, and can be really funny, and I never considered her that over, either. If I had only been watching WWE on TV and was just now starting to read wrestling message boards, I would be shocked at Layla's online popularity. |
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Post by norsisclouds on Apr 7, 2012 17:27:54 GMT -5
I can see that argument, but really if Laycool were as over as we now think of them in the first place (I admit they were getting great heat tormenting Mickie James) the split would not have been greeted with massive indifference by the majority of fans, and people would have been really into the match at Extreme Rules. Layla should also have been able to pull off the sympathetic babyface angle against the long detested Michelle, who most fans considered at the very least to be overbearing and obnoxious. But she couldn't do that. I don't blame that on booking or writing, that is down to the wrestler. These kinds of splits are formulaic and have been around since the golden era of wrestling. I understand that people like Layla, but that kind of thing is down to the performer. It shouldn't be so hard for someone to split from an annoying heel tag team after their leader turns on them to become a cheered face. But it was...and it's because she just wasn't that over. I maintain that while the IWC likes her and I think she is a great talent, her connection to the crowd was greatly exaggerated, and part of that is her fault. It can't all be on the writers, this kind of stuff isn't rocket science. Blind Layla hating I see. She may not get the Pops that divas of the past got, but Layla was pretty freaking over. I don't blindly hate Layla. You can easily go back and watch those segments and see she wasn't really that over. I think she's the most talented diva on the roster. That doesn't mean that the crowd cared about her. |
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Magician under the moonlight
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Always Beaten To The Punchline. Always.
A magician and a thief. That's Badass
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Post by Magician under the moonlight on Apr 7, 2012 17:39:13 GMT -5
Blind Layla hating I see. She may not get the Pops that divas of the past got, but Layla was pretty freaking over. I don't blindly hate Layla. You can easily go back and watch those segments and see she wasn't really that over. I think she's the most talented diva on the roster. That doesn't mean that the crowd cared about her. To be fair, she wasn't really that talented. Her charisma makes up for her lack of wrestling ability though. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 17:49:10 GMT -5
I don't blindly hate Layla. You can easily go back and watch those segments and see she wasn't really that over. I think she's the most talented diva on the roster. That doesn't mean that the crowd cared about her. To be fair, she wasn't really that talented. Her charisma makes up for her lack of wrestling ability though. I agree with this. I think the internet has really overrated not only Layla's in-ring skills, but also her overness with the crowd. For whatever reason the internet absolutely loves her and they've transfered that into praise for things that don't necessarily deserve praise. |
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Post by Andrew is Good on Apr 7, 2012 17:54:40 GMT -5
Kelly Kelly has a lot of sympathy. She takes a good ass kicking. For all the talk about her being pretty useless, there is one trait she does have. People feel bad when others kick the crap out of her. This works fine with certain characters and makes them a little over. She's like, the Colin Delaney of the Divas Division (in the sympathy department, not talent). So, the kids probably like that about her. She's small, and she sucks for the most part, but she tries, in kayfabe anyway.
Other then that, she's there because she's Paris Hilton. She's famous just because.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 17:55:58 GMT -5
Shouldn't Kharma be back by now?
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PKO
King Koopa
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Post by PKO on Apr 7, 2012 18:01:15 GMT -5
The problem I, and I'm sure many other people, had with the LayCool break-up (and subsequently Layla's face turn) was that it was hard to care they were breaking up. I mean, it's a heel team that has gone out of their way to bully most of the face divas...shouldn't we be glad they're breaking up? Instead it was played like they were both upset to be breaking up, and how it was a shame they couldn't work out their differences; much more suitable for a face team.
They needed Michelle to just completely ditch Layla, no "oh isn't it a shame..?", just complete abandonment: you're not in my league, you're nothing without me. They needed to build support for Layla, build sympathy. The only thing I thought actually worked in Layla's favour in that feud was the segment before their match where Layla apologised to the other divas backstage.
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As for Kelly, she has had the most successful consistent pushing for any face diva. It's a shame the way she has been presented over the years couldn't have gone to someone more talented.
As for why she gets this treatment? I'm guessing the unfortunate answer is that somebody important backstage finds her the most sexually attractive. Simple as.
Trish got the same thing years ago, but she had the drive and determination (as well as some natural ability) to actually become a talented member of the roster. I wish Kelly had that same drive.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Apr 7, 2012 18:10:27 GMT -5
Kelly Kelly has a lot of sympathy. She takes a good ass kicking. For all the talk about her being pretty useless, there is one trait she does have. People feel bad when others kick the crap out of her. This works fine with certain characters and makes them a little over. She's like, the Colin Delaney of the Divas Division (in the sympathy department, not talent). So, the kids probably like that about her. She's small, and she sucks for the most part, but she tries, in kayfabe anyway. While all of this is true, what the brass apparently hasn't figured out is that these aren't traits of a great wrestler, so much as traits of a great valet. She's sympathetic as hell, and her looks are nothing more than a plus. But talent wise? She has none, period. She'd be much more useful in a valet role. |
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PKO
King Koopa
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Post by PKO on Apr 7, 2012 18:14:09 GMT -5
Kelly Kelly has a lot of sympathy. She takes a good ass kicking. For all the talk about her being pretty useless, there is one trait she does have. People feel bad when others kick the crap out of her. This works fine with certain characters and makes them a little over. She's like, the Colin Delaney of the Divas Division (in the sympathy department, not talent). So, the kids probably like that about her. She's small, and she sucks for the most part, but she tries, in kayfabe anyway. While all of this is true, what the brass apparently hasn't figured out is that these aren't traits of a great wrestler, so much as traits of a great valet. She's sympathetic as hell, and her looks are nothing more than a plus. But talent wise? She has none, period. She'd be much more useful in a valet role. Yes. As awful as Kelly is in the ring, she would make a great jobber and valet. Hell, they had it right for her first year, I think they just hoped the wrestling thing would click into place. |
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Post by norsisclouds on Apr 7, 2012 18:35:21 GMT -5
Kelly Kelly has a lot of sympathy. She takes a good ass kicking. For all the talk about her being pretty useless, there is one trait she does have. People feel bad when others kick the crap out of her. This works fine with certain characters and makes them a little over. She's like, the Colin Delaney of the Divas Division (in the sympathy department, not talent). So, the kids probably like that about her. She's small, and she sucks for the most part, but she tries, in kayfabe anyway. While all of this is true, what the brass apparently hasn't figured out is that these aren't traits of a great wrestler, so much as traits of a great valet. She's sympathetic as hell, and her looks are nothing more than a plus. But talent wise? She has none, period. She'd be much more useful in a valet role. Valeting who though? With very rare exceptions heels use valets and their valets are usually heels right there along with them. Since Kelly can't pull that off, she'd have to be in a situation similar to AJ and DB. And it takes more than just getting kicked around to be a successful valet. Maryse was a terrible valet for Dibiase and she was strikingly good looking and charismatic. And yet--nothing. Other far more over divas have had less than stellar runs as valets in the past which amounted to nothing for the wrestlers. I don't think Kelly has the talent to be a valet honestly. There was nothing memorable about her time on WWECW that I would chalk up to good valet work. I think she did somewhat find her stride as a face getting beaten up all the time and they should have stuck to that instead of the roll up of doom that makes the rest of the division look like a joke and exposes her lack of talent. As for Layla, I like her but I do have to agree with another poster who said she is more over on the internet than she is with the crowd. Haven't read about any live crowds giving her a startling welcome back reaction. The only person who gets them really interested is Kelly (though that has died off recently), and now Eve. |
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Post by Andrew is Good on Apr 7, 2012 18:47:35 GMT -5
Being a valet might be tough though, as again, she has no talent. Forget wrestling, anything in the entertainment business, she can't do. If she leaves WWE, she's f***ed. I think she makes the perfect jobber. Like, some of those pasty jobbers from back in the 80s, where she just gets clobbered regularly.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 19:23:47 GMT -5
While all of this is true, what the brass apparently hasn't figured out is that these aren't traits of a great wrestler, so much as traits of a great valet. She's sympathetic as hell, and her looks are nothing more than a plus. But talent wise? She has none, period. She'd be much more useful in a valet role. Valeting who though? With very rare exceptions heels use valets and their valets are usually heels right there along with them. Since Kelly can't pull that off, she'd have to be in a situation similar to AJ and DB. And it takes more than just getting kicked around to be a successful valet. Maryse was a terrible valet for Dibiase and she was strikingly good looking and charismatic. And yet--nothing. Other far more over divas have had less than stellar runs as valets in the past which amounted to nothing for the wrestlers. I don't think Kelly has the talent to be a valet honestly. There was nothing memorable about her time on WWECW that I would chalk up to good valet work. I think she did somewhat find her stride as a face getting beaten up all the time and they should have stuck to that instead of the roll up of doom that makes the rest of the division look like a joke and exposes her lack of talent. THANK YOU. The whole "Pretty girl but not much of a wrestler? Make her a valet!" thing annoys me. The Maryse example is a great one, too. Before she was paired with DiBiase, Bryan Alvarez and Lance Storm, among others, stated more than once how great and effective Maryse would be if WWE paired her with a male heel. |
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Post by norsisclouds on Apr 7, 2012 19:36:08 GMT -5
Valeting who though? With very rare exceptions heels use valets and their valets are usually heels right there along with them. Since Kelly can't pull that off, she'd have to be in a situation similar to AJ and DB. And it takes more than just getting kicked around to be a successful valet. Maryse was a terrible valet for Dibiase and she was strikingly good looking and charismatic. And yet--nothing. Other far more over divas have had less than stellar runs as valets in the past which amounted to nothing for the wrestlers. I don't think Kelly has the talent to be a valet honestly. There was nothing memorable about her time on WWECW that I would chalk up to good valet work. I think she did somewhat find her stride as a face getting beaten up all the time and they should have stuck to that instead of the roll up of doom that makes the rest of the division look like a joke and exposes her lack of talent. THANK YOU. The whole "Pretty girl but not much of a wrestler? Make her a valet!" thing annoys me. The Maryse example is a great one, too. Before she was paired with DiBiase, Bryan Alvarez and Lance Storm, among others, stated more than once how great and effective Maryse would be if WWE paired her with a male heel. It's actually one of my biggest pet peeves too because we've had countless obvious examples of very over divas, some of the most over divas WWE has ever had--sucking as valets. Not everyone is going to be a Sherri Martel, Miss Elizabeth, Chyna, or a Lita. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 19:39:27 GMT -5
Kelly isn't as terrible in the ring as some believe. Will she ever have classic matches? No. Can she work the WWE diva style and do some decent moves? Yes.
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PKO
King Koopa
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Post by PKO on Apr 7, 2012 19:41:00 GMT -5
I still liked Maryse as a valet. They should have just put her with Miz who (obviously) she had chemistry with.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2012 19:51:02 GMT -5
I still liked Maryse as a valet. They should have just put her with Miz who (obviously) she had chemistry with. WWE was going to put her with Miz, put it on hold because Maryse needed knee surgery, and by the time she returned, WWE thought Miz was doing just fine and didn't need a valet. Why WWE felt the need to put it on hold is something I can't answer as she could have just been his valet while injured. |
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