Shawn Micheals the greatest or just WWE hype?

[YAKMAN is ICHIBAN]

Easily one of the top guys of all time, but picking one greatest is way too much of a judgment call.

Unless you want to be blasé and go with a money value.

[fw91]

May 12, 2012 3:57:48 GMT -5 onestepplan said:

Even still, Michaels gets a bad rap on the drawing front. The WWF(E) was in a down period and no one person could've really pulled them out of it. Not to mention that people often forget that Michaels was bringing attitude just as hard as Austin in 97 and had to retire before it fully blossomed. I think the guy would've been a MAAAJOR name, more so than he is now, if he hadn't had to call it quits right as everything was taking off.

In ring, I think HBK was a lot more versatile than Hart. I think the IWC (I know, I know) puts too much weight on mat wrestling skills alone. Michaels' psychology was just as good if not better than Hart's and he could do anything in the ring. Hart was more about the science of it, Michaels was more about the art.

So, no, I don't think that accolade is just hype. I've never heard of anyone having more great matches in big name situations than Michaels. The guy couldn't miss, that makes me pretty sure he really knew what he was doing.

well said.

[Tiger Millionaire]

May 12, 2012 5:32:00 GMT -5 Arthur Digby Stamp said:

They make a point to say 'in ring performer', and by that standard, absolutely. Shawn Michaels has the greatest body of work of any wrestler past or present.

I would take Ric Flair if we're doing body of work. Right now he has the Willie Mays with the Mets syndrome, where his latter work is tainting how great he was in the 70's, 80's, and even 90's.

[xCompackx]

I'm kinda split on this. Obviously HBK is VERY talented and has a plethora of amazing matches under his belt. On the other hand, his backstage problems and general bad attitude (at least until he returned in 2002-2003) kinda spoil his legacy for me.

[StuntGranny®]

In my opinion, it's definitely WWE hype. There's no denying that Shawn was and is one of the greats, but the greatest? I don't think so. It's hard for me to seriously consider putting him over the likes of Hogan, Flair, Savage, or Austin.

[thecrusherwi]

I think it's hype, and I'm a HUGE Shawn Michaels fan. Even as an "in ring performer". What does that even mean? He does the move the best?

If working is psychology, there are guys who are better (Savage for sure, you could argue a number of others).

If working is garnering a response from a crowd, he's not even close. There's a reason Hogan, Rock, and Austin, don't have any footage of them jumping off the top rope of falling off a cell: they could get the same reaction with a hand to an ear, raising of an eyebrow, or middle finger.

If it's mic skills, I got news for ya, he's a little bland and repetitive

I would put Shawn in the top class in WWE history, but I don't think I could ever make an argument that he's number 1.

[babyfootball]

Nobody's even been able to define what we mean by "Greatest of All-Time" yet. How can we determine who was the best without first deciding what exactly it is to be the best.

[Allie Kitsune]

I think he was the best overall at putting on big PPV matches, yes.

However, other people are bringing drawing power and pure mat skill into this, which are two things that he's _not_ the best (possibly not even top 10) at.

[Citizen Grimm]

May 12, 2012 9:17:56 GMT -5 Todd's crazy , Man. said:

May 12, 2012 7:44:13 GMT -5 The Ichi said:

May 12, 2012 5:32:00 GMT -5 Arthur Digby Stamp said:

They make a point to say 'in ring performer', and by that standard, absolutely. Shawn Michaels has the greatest body of work of any wrestler past or present.

You really need to qualify that statement because as it stands , opinion or not that's just completely ridiculous on several levels.
I love HBK but come on , that is not true at all.
I could probably about ten guys off the top of my head who were better then HBK in-Ring while HE was wrestling. At least ten.

Really? I'd love to hear 10 in-ring performers who were better than HBK while he was wrestling.

Anyway, if this solely judged on in-ring performance, then yeah, its Shawn.

[Squirrel Master]

Shawn Michaels can absorb a good beating and not give up. That's all I've got...

[SenorCrest]

To me HBK is one of the greatest. There isn't a match I didn't like from him.

May 12, 2012 3:37:24 GMT -5 Bub (BLM) said:

Michaels couldn't draw ratings to save his life in his time on top of the WWF.

This statement just pisses me off. The only people that needs to be concern about ratings is wwe not the fans. Who gives a f*** about ratings?

[Slanted and Enchanted]

May 12, 2012 13:18:21 GMT -5 Citizen Grimm said:

May 12, 2012 9:17:56 GMT -5 Todd's crazy , Man. said:

You really need to qualify that statement because as it stands , opinion or not that's just completely ridiculous on several levels.
I love HBK but come on , that is not true at all.
I could probably about ten guys off the top of my head who were better then HBK in-Ring while HE was wrestling. At least ten.

Really? I'd love to hear 10 in-ring performers who were better than HBK while he was wrestling.

Anyway, if this solely judged on in-ring performance, then yeah, its Shawn.

I too would like a list.

[Kevin Hamilton]

A lil bit of both. He's definitely one of the all time greatest, but clearly the hype machine has really elevated him to iconic status.

Also pencil me in as a dude that's curious to hear TEN in ring performers who are/were better.

[thecrusherwi]

Shawn was in wrestling for a long long time, so getting 10 that were as good or arguably better in the ring than him is not that hard

Hart
Taker
Austin
Rock
Angle
Foley
Vader
Eddie
Brock
Benoit
HHH (at times)

There's 10+ right there. I didn't even include Hogan, Flair, and Savage, who were past their prime by Shawn's single's run.

BTW I'm defining "in-ring performance" by psychology, story telling, and ability to elicit a reaction, not doing a ton of pretty moves.

[KofiMania]

May 12, 2012 12:52:12 GMT -5 StuntGranny® said:

In my opinion, it's definitely WWE hype. There's no denying that Shawn was and is one of the greats, but the greatest? I don't think so. It's hard for me to seriously consider putting him over the likes of Hogan, Flair, Savage, or Austin.

The OP CLEARLY said best "in-ring", as in puts on the best matches. I don't think anyone would argue he's the best ever in terms of drawing power (like Hogan, Austin, Rock, Flair, etc).

[BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps]

It's not fair to downgrade HBK just because his periods on top weren't huge moneymakers. New Generation's limited success was partly due to a lot of outside circumstances, and he was hampered by a back injury during most of Attitude so we'll never be able to truly tell how he'd have fared in that big a public spotlight.

But solely as an in-ring performer, I'd call him one of the best, not the absolute #1. Austin, Eddie Guerrero, Kurt Angle, Rock, Foley, Bret, Savage, Jericho, Benoit and Undertaker have bodies of work that could help their cases, and Cena's been building quite the resume himself since 2007 on. And let's not count out a healthy HHH.

[Ryanar]

*cue Triple H playing acoustic guitar*

Shawn Michaels: This is the greatest and best in ring performance in the world

...
...

tribute

[Todd's crazy , Man.]

1.Misawa
2.Kobashi
3.Kawada
4.Mutoh
5.Akiyama
6.Taue
7. Tenryu
8.Liger
9. Hashimoto
10.Chono


That's just when he was wrestling and I didn't even put Vader in there (though he should be in all honesty) because most only remember him from his WWE/WWF run which admittedly was pretty bad. On top of those names you also have Inoki , Baba , Jumbo , Hansen and guys like Takayama , Sasaki , Nagata and Tenzan who are somewhat debatable.


I love HBK , I adore the man. He was an all time great worker , top thirty? No doubt but the greatest of all time in-ring ? No!!! How? Misawa and Kobashi both Invented more moves then Shawn! Literally what could Shawn do that Misawa couldn't or hadn't? Those guys made Vader look like a million bucks yet Shawn could barley work with the guy. Vader who mind you , could legitimately be the greatest big man of all time or is only perhap second to the undertaker.

Hell , How many companies did Shawn hold the top belt in? The WWE? Vader alone held it in WCW , New Japan and All Japan Muto held the NWA World Title , The IWGP Title and The AJPW Title. You want to go by Meltzer? ( I know some don't trust the guy but he's still pretty damn respected) We can do that to , Shawn has had Four matches of the year to Misawa's four and Kobashi's five yet both Misawa and Kobashi have been wrestler of the year three times to HBK's NONE and don't even get me started on Five Star Matches.



Seriously HBK could be the greatest WWE wrestler of all time , The Greatest Wrestlemania wrestler of all time and the greatest Royal Rumble winner of all time but pound for pound the best in ring worker? No. This isn't me having a hard on for Japanese wrestling , I'll admit that Baba wasn't as good as Taker or that right now hands down far and away Daniel Bryan is a better wrestler then KENTA and Marufuji or that see a Brock Lesnar match then a Nagata one but I will not sit here and say that HBK is the greatest in ring performer of all time because there's no objective way to watch HBK wrestle and say that.

Now I'm out because this thread is probably going to devolve quickly into the classic IWC Feud of Japanese Wrestling Vs American where both sides refuse to come down off their high horse and admit that both have their own negatives and positives and that's it possible to enjoy both for what they are.

[The Ichi]

Most of those never wrestled in the WWE. We're talking about people in interviews calling him the best ring worker in WWE history here.

[BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps]

May 12, 2012 14:25:59 GMT -5 Todd's crazy , Man. said:

1.Misawa
2.Kobashi
3.Kawada
4.Mutoh
5.Akiyama
6.Taue
7. Tenryu
8.Liger
9. Hashimoto
10.Chono


That's just when he was wrestling and I didn't even put Vader in there (though he should be in all honesty) because most only remember him from his WWE/WWF run which admittedly was pretty bad. On top of those names you also have Inoki , Baba , Jumbo , Hansen and guys like Takayama , Sasaki , Nagata and Tenzan who are somewhat debatable.


I love HBK , I adore the man. He was an all time great worker , top thirty? No doubt but the greatest of all time in-ring ? No!!! How? Misawa and Kobashi both Invented more moves then Shawn! Literally what could Shawn do that Misawa couldn't or hadn't? Those guys made Vader look like a million bucks yet Shawn could barley work with the guy. Vader who mind you , could legitimately be the greatest big man of all time or is only perhap second to the undertaker.

Hell , How many companies did Shawn hold the top belt in? The WWE? Vader alone held it in WCW , New Japan and All Japan Muto held the NWA World Title , The IWGP Title and The AJPW Title. You want to go by Meltzer? ( I know some don't trust the guy but he's still pretty damn respected) We can do that to , Shawn has had Four matches of the year to Misawa's four and Kobashi's five yet both Misawa and Kobashi have been wrestler of the year three times to HBK's NONE and don't even get me started on Five Star Matches.



Seriously HBK could be the greatest WWE wrestler of all time , The Greatest Wrestlemania wrestler of all time and the greatest Royal Rumble winner of all time but pound for pound the best in ring worker? No. This isn't me having a hard on for Japanese wrestling , I'll admit that Baba wasn't as good as Taker or that right now hands down far and away Daniel Bryan is a better wrestler then KENTA and Marufuji or that see a Brock Lesnar match then a Nagata one but I will not sit here and say that HBK is the greatest in ring performer of all time because there's no objective way to watch HBK wrestle and say that.

Now I'm out because this thread is probably going to devolve quickly into the classic IWC Feud of Japanese Wrestling Vs American where both sides refuse to come down off their high horse and admit that both have their own negatives and positives and that's it possible to enjoy both for what they are.

Taue is the only guy out of that list I haven't seen, and I'd only put Mutoh, Misawa, Kobashi and Liger as definitively being above Shawn.

And I'd take Hansen or Nagata over Hashimoto any day.