NBA Thread XXXIII: Paul Stars In: The Clip-Show

[BRV]

Dec 14, 2011 15:15:59 GMT -5 MGH said:

chadfordinsider Nets offered everything they could for Howard: Brook Lopez + FIVE 1st Rd picks. Theirs in 2011, 2013, 2015, 2017 + Rockets 2011 pick.

That plus players from the other teams involved. What the f*** do you want Orlando?

If I'm a New Jersey/Brooklyn Nets fan, I'm counting my lucky stars that Orlando turned that deal down. It'd be the NBA equivalent of the Herschel Walker trade. Sure, you'd be landing an elite talent and the best center in the league, but at the same time you'd also be completely compromising your future by throwing six years worth of first-round picks into the deal.

[MGH]

I'm not sure how I feel about that deal yet. If it was just Dwight I'd agree right off the bat, but after what everyone has said the question basically becomes would you trade 5 first round draft picks for 5-6 years of Deron Williams and Dwight Howard playing together. Because one isn't staying without the other.

[BRV]

I think even if Orlando accepted the trade and sent Howard to New Jersey, the Nets would still miss the playoffs. Here's their projected starting five:

C - Brook Lopez (Dwight Howard, if trade was accepted)
PF - Jordan Williams
SF - Travis Outlaw
SG - Anthony Morrow
PG - Deron Williams

Combine those five with a bench of Johan Petro, Jordan Williams, Bojan Bogdanovic, Damion Jones, Marshon Brooks, Jordan Farmar and Sundiata Gaines and you've got a fringe playoff team.

Once again, if I'm a Nets fan, I'm thrilled that the trade didn't go through. You'd be blowing up your foreseeable future for a team that would barely make the playoffs this year, and is in flux for the rest of the decade if Williams and Howard don't re-sign.

[The Captain]

I also think Orlando wouldn't have turned that trade down unless they were confident they could convince Howard to stay in Orlando. Unlike CP3, Howard actually likes being in Orlando, even if he'd up for playing elsewhere. Because if I was the Orlando GM, I would've taken that deal in a heartbeat if I thought Dwight Howard was taking his talents elsewhere.

[BRV]

Dec 14, 2011 16:45:49 GMT -5 The Captain said:

I also think Orlando wouldn't have turned that trade down unless they were confident they could convince Howard to stay in Orlando. Unlike CP3, Howard actually likes being in Orlando, even if he'd up for playing elsewhere. Because if I was the Orlando GM, I would've taken that deal in a heartbeat if I thought Dwight Howard was taking his talents elsewhere.

There were numerous reports last week that said, in no specific terms, that Howard wanted out of Orlando because he was upset with the moves that general manager Otis Smith was, or wasn't, making.

The moves Howard wanted? First, he wanted Smith to sign Glen Davis, which the Magic did, via a sign-and-trade, sending Brandon Bass to Boston and signing Davis to a four-year, $26 million contract. Second, he wanted the Magic to put in a bid on Chauncey Billups after he was waived, via amnesty, from the New York Knicks. The Magic lost out on Billups.

Needless to say, if Howard thought the best possible moves the Magic could make would be to sign Glen Davis and Chauncey Billups, then he is a pretty terrible evaluator of talent, which makes it a little more understandable as to why he'd want to force a trade to the Nets.

[MGH]

Chris Mannix - "Andrew Bynum is the best piece out there. I really think he's a franchise center."


Who does Bynum have pictures of? Seriously.

[moneyman20]

Dec 14, 2011 17:02:06 GMT -5 MGH said:

Chris Mannix - "Andrew Bynum is the best piece out there. I really think he's a franchise center."

No.[/Tyson Tomko]

[BRV]

Dec 14, 2011 17:02:06 GMT -5 MGH said:

Chris Mannix - "Andrew Bynum is the best piece out there. I really think he's a franchise center."

Perhaps Mannix meant that Andrew Bynum would be a franchise center if the franchise were in Turkey, Russia or the Czech Republic.

[Unocal 76]

I might as well ask BRV my starting 5 on the Celtics:

1. Last year, the Celtics hit the skids after a scorching hot start early in the season. Everyone blames the Perkins trade, you said it was the Marquis Daniels injury, I blamed it on age and a lack of depth. What was the true cause of their plummet from first in the East to third?

2. The Celtics had Miami's number the first 3 games of the season, but lost 5 of the last 6 meetings (including 4 of 5 in the playoffs). Most people outside Miami picked the Celtics to win that series, but when we last saw the C's, they squandered winnable games in game 4 and esp. Game 5 (when they saw a potential game 6 in the distance). How did it go from "We own Miami" to "We can't beat these guys now?"

3. How many years do the Big 3 have left?

4. How much credit does Doc Rivers deserve for the recent revival of Celtics basketball?

5. Your expectations for the Celtics in 2012? (Also, do you think they can hold off the Knicks in their own division)

[andrew8798]

Though the Magic have called off trade talks with Dwight Howard for now, Howard reiterated his stance on Wednesday that he wants to be dealt.

[BRV]

Dec 14, 2011 17:26:54 GMT -5 Unocal 76 said:

I might as well ask BRV my starting 5 on the Celtics:

I'm flattered that you're interested in my opinion regarding the Boston Celtics. However, I'm probably not the most reliable or respected voice when it comes to discussing the Celtics, as I, more often than not, will allow my blind homerism to get in the way of common sense. That being said, I'll try to give you the best answers I can, while trying to remove my green-shaded glasses.

1. Last year, the Celtics hit the skids after a scorching hot start early in the season. Everyone blames the Perkins trade, you said it was the Marquis Daniels injury, I blamed it on age and a lack of depth. What was the true cause of their plummet from first in the East to third?

I think it was a combination of all three factors, however, to give the lion's share of the credit to the Kendrick Perkins trade is really ignoring the numerous factors that went into that deal in the first place. The Perkins trade was deemed necessary only after Marquis Daniels' neck injury. Prior to the injury on Super Bowl Sunday, the Celtics were cruising at 38-12, and were arguably the deepest team, 1-12, in the entire league. Daniels gave the Celtics valuable minutes off the bench, spelling Ray Allen and Paul Pierce for extended periods of time, while not allowing the team to completely fall apart on the floor.

Without Daniels, the team lacked a true swingman to come off the bench. In the period of time between Daniels' injury and the Perkins trade, the Celtics were 3-2, and Danny Ainge obviously felt the need for depth at SG/SF was far more important than depth at center, which is why he pulled the trigger on the trade. I think even now, Ainge is willing to admit that putting his faith into Nenad Krstic, Jermaine O'Neal and Shaquille O'Neal to man the front-court for the remaining 26 regular season games was a foolish judgment call.

The biggest factor of the Perkins trade was the funk that it sent Rajon Rondo into. Perkins was arguably Rondo's closest, and possibly only, friend on the roster, and when he left for Oklahoma City, Rondo went into a tailspin that took almost two months to snap out of.

If I had to distribute percentages to each theory as to why the Celtics faded down the stretch, I'd give the following credit: Daniels injury (60 percent), Perkins trade (25 percent), age (15 percent).

2. The Celtics had Miami's number the first 3 games of the season, but lost 5 of the last 6 meetings (including 4 of 5 in the playoffs). Most people outside Miami picked the Celtics to win that series, but when we last saw the C's, they squandered winnable games in game 4 and esp. Game 5 (when they saw a potential game 6 in the distance). How did it go from "We own Miami" to "We can't beat these guys now?"

The overall structure of the team had changed. When the Celtics and Heat last faced off prior to the Perkins trade, the Celtics roster was deep: Rondo, R. Allen, Pierce, Garnett, S. O'Neal with a bench of M. Daniels, Nate Robinson, Glen Davis, Semih Erden, Jermaine O'Neal and Von Wafer. Compare that to the team that walked off the floor of the American Airlines Arena after losing Game Five of the Eastern Conference Semi-Finals: Rondo, Allen, Pierce, Garnett, J. O'Neal with a bench of Jeff Green, Delonte West, Nenad Krstic, Glen Davis, Carlos Arroyo and Troy Murphy.

The moves that Danny Ainge made during and after the deadline gutted the team of their vaunted depth. The Troy Murphy signing failed miserably, and Shaq was never able to get back in shape or stay healthy long enough to provide valuable minutes.

3. How many years do the Big 3 have left?

This is it, barring something particularly amazing happening. Something amazing, as in, the Celtics trade for Chris Paul, then sign Dwight Howard in the off-season, with Ray Allen and Kevin Garnett returning on minimum contracts to chase one last championship.

The Celtics have only five players under contract for 2012-13 (Rondo, Pierce, Avery Bradley and the two rookies). They have enough money to offer a max contract if they want to. Ray Allen might have some mileage left in the tank after this season, but his future might be with another franchise, depending on what kind of offers he'll receive next July. As for the Big Ticket, it's been universally accepted that this season is Kevin Garnett's final lap, barring the Celtics bringing in some sort of All-Star team next season.

4. How much credit does Doc Rivers deserve for the recent revival of Celtics basketball?

A decent amount. Prior to the arrival of the Big Three, Rivers wasn't exactly setting the world on fire. Granted, he didn't really have much talent to work with, but there were multiple calls for Doc's head prior to 2007-08.

However, he was the one that preached "Ubuntu" prior to the 2007-08 season, a theory that everyone on that roster bought into. He was the one that was able to keep the egos of three superstars, and one budding star, in check. On court, a lot of the credit needs to go to Tom Thibodeau, who's defensive schemes completely stifled LeBron James and Kobe Bryant during the 2008 playoff run.

Rivers' performance with the new Big Three has been so universally respected league-wide that it's been reported that Doc was physically cornered during the 2011 All-Star Game by Dwyane Wade and LeBron James, who told him, in no specific terms, "You're coming to Miami next season to coach us. End of discussion."

5. Your expectations for the Celtics in 2012? (Also, do you think they can hold off the Knicks in their own division)

The 12 back-to-back games and the brutal stretch in April certainly don't aid aging teams like Boston. The 66-game schedule will definitely favor teams that have deep eight-or-nine-man rotations, something the Celtics don't really have. I think Jeff Green and Brandon Bass are fine enough bench players, but I don't love the Keyon Dooling or Chris Wilcox signings, especially considering how weak they are at the center position.

However, they are fortunate to play in a relatively weak division. Fending off New York will be a challenge, but I don't expect much out of Philadelphia, New Jersey or Toronto. If I had to make a prediction on the spot, I'll say 40-26 in the regular season and a second-round exit in the playoffs.

[MGH]

Dec 14, 2011 17:56:13 GMT -5 andrew8798 said:

Though the Magic have called off trade talks with Dwight Howard for now, Howard reiterated his stance on Wednesday that he wants to be dealt.

...well they f***ing called it off because he started hinting that he wanted to stay. This is going to end up lingering all season and being ridiculously frustrating.

[moneyman20]

Trade him or don't because this is getting really dumb.

[MGH]

Could the Chris Paul saga finally be ending:


ESPNSteinLine ESPN sources: Clippers and NBA-owned Hornets have agreed to Chris Paul deal in principle. Gordon, Kaman, Aminu and Minnesota pick to Hornets.

ESPN sources say NBA approval to be issued by night's end to seal CP3 and 2 future 2nd-rounders to Clips for Gordon/Kaman/Aminu/Sota first.

[vm88]

From ESPN.com:

The Los Angeles Clippers have agreed to a deal in principle with the league-owned New Orleans Hornets to acquire guard Chris Paul, according to sources close to the process.

The Clippers, sources said, will send guard Eric Gordon, center Chris Kaman, forward Al-Farouq Aminu and Minnesota's unprotected 2012 first-round pick to the Hornets for Paul.

So yes, it looks like the Blake & CP3 show is happening in Clipper nation. And we have the next big playoff-bound team on our hands.

[BRV]

With any trade involving Chris Paul, I'm going to wait until the press conference in which he is holding the team's jersey at the podium before I believe anything is official.

That being said, Chris Paul is going from one of the worst owners in the league, in David Stern, to unquestionably the worst owner in American professional sports, in Donald Sterling. I can't wait to hear the negative things he has to say about Sterling when he's packing his bags and leaving Los Angeles next summer.

[MGH]

Next headline I expect:

Sources say Chauncy Billups was just lead out in handcuffs after destroying the LA Clipper's practice facility in a rage.

[Deleted]

"Clippers threw away their future to rent CP3 for 2 years. Say goodbye to Blake Griffin."

That quote works to sum it up pretty much.

[Unocal 76]

Originally thought they could pull this off without trading Eric Gordon.

Good move?

[Insomniac]

Paul/Bledsoe/Butler/Griffin/Jordan will be an extremely entertaining starting five.