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Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Aug 8, 2012 13:50:23 GMT -5
I've seen about 14 6'0 QBs in Cleveland the last 9 years, and it's not pretty. Well it is Cleveland so what do you expect?
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Arrow on Aug 8, 2012 13:51:21 GMT -5
No they weren't. They were average sized wrestlers, and still bigger than the average guy on the street. Punk and Bryan are completely normal sized guys, and to Nash that means they won't draw. Austin and Flair were both around 240-250 pounds, that's substantially larger than Punk/Bryan, both of which are hovering right around 200. Look at the biggest stars ever in American wrestling. Hogan, Savage, Austin, Rock, Undertaker, Flair. None of them smaller than 6'1, none of them under 240, and half of them are 6'5 and up, 275 and up. Daniel Bryan is 5'8, 190. I love the guy, but his size does hold him back, absolutely. It's like in the NFL with the QB height argument. You don't have to be 6'5, but damn does it help. And if you're under 6'1, sorry, you're not a starting NFL QB. Drew Brees is the cut off, and it's only because he's mindbogglingly good (and has great protection). I've seen about 14 6'0 QBs in Cleveland the last 9 years, and it's not pretty. I don't know how right Nash is, but really all he's saying that Punk, Bryan, Benoit and Guerrero are too small to be top draws. It's just an opinion, but he didn't mince words and beat around the bush about it, so there's this "outrage". It's pretty ridiculous, not uncommon though. Sammartino, Bob Backland, HBK, and Bret Hart would all like to give you the middle finger. I can't speak for Sammartino or Backlund, but the legacy left by HBK's time on top really only help prove Nash's point. Especially considering he was directly competing against the kind of person who Nash talks about as being a draw.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2012 13:55:09 GMT -5
No they weren't. They were average sized wrestlers, and still bigger than the average guy on the street. Punk and Bryan are completely normal sized guys, and to Nash that means they won't draw. Austin and Flair were both around 240-250 pounds, that's substantially larger than Punk/Bryan, both of which are hovering right around 200. Look at the biggest stars ever in American wrestling. Hogan, Savage, Austin, Rock, Undertaker, Flair. None of them smaller than 6'1, none of them under 240, and half of them are 6'5 and up, 275 and up. Daniel Bryan is 5'8, 190. I love the guy, but his size does hold him back, absolutely. It's like in the NFL with the QB height argument. You don't have to be 6'5, but damn does it help. And if you're under 6'1, sorry, you're not a starting NFL QB. Drew Brees is the cut off, and it's only because he's mindbogglingly good (and has great protection). I've seen about 14 6'0 QBs in Cleveland the last 9 years, and it's not pretty. I don't know how right Nash is, but really all he's saying that Punk, Bryan, Benoit and Guerrero are too small to be top draws. It's just an opinion, but he didn't mince words and beat around the bush about it, so there's this "outrage". It's pretty ridiculous, not uncommon though. Sammartino, Bob Backland, HBK, and Bret Hart would all like to give you the middle finger. Why? I even say that I'm not sure if I agree with Nash, but I'm looking at it from his point of view and trying to understand his logic, instead of making quad tear jokes and being all pissy because his opinion insults some wrestlers I like. I'm as a big a Bret Hart fan as there is, by the way. And Mr. Bob Backlund would give YOU the middle finger if he caught you misspelling his name like that. Also, all those guys you mentioned are bigger than Punk and Bryan, physically.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,122
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Post by Arrow on Aug 8, 2012 14:06:29 GMT -5
Jim Ross' thoughts:
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nWoElite
Don Corleone
Putting The Band Back Together...
Posts: 1,686
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Post by nWoElite on Aug 8, 2012 14:16:37 GMT -5
Eddie was a bigger draw in his 3 month reign (especially with the Latino audience) than Big Daddy Cool was in his entire one year run. Two totally different audiences from two completely different era's.
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Post by Society of the Spectacle on Aug 8, 2012 14:20:08 GMT -5
Nash's arguments are funny.
His whole spiel about art and well rounded people is funny because I find it far more likely that people like Daniel Bryan (a pretty voracious reader) could appreciate culture more than someone like Matt Morgan or some younger "larger than life" freakish sized figure. However, there are exceptions on both sides. For every Bryan, you have someone like Davey Richards, and for every Matt Morgan, you have someone like Kane. Size, look, appreciation of independent pro wrestling, or whatever else usually has little to do with how "cultured" (a subjective term as well) someone is.
As far as being "larger than life goes", it depends on how you are presented. Sylvester Stallone is unquestionably larger than life, and that guy is definitely below six feet. Rey Mysterio is well below the size of even a "normal man", but the style he has tailored (less so now than before, but eh) as well as his connection with the audience make him larger than life. If Stallone had never gotten Rocky or Rambo off the ground, and was instead cast to play accountants and little league coaches his whole career, he wouldn't have been larger than life. It was his own determination, his ability to sell himself as something more, and a little luck that made him who he is perceived as today.
On top of this, Nash's argument comes across as similar to Bruno Sammartino talking about the business that had passed him by. 2012 wrestling, even though many of the current stars were inspired by the New Generation/nWo/etc. era, has a completely different attitude. The backstage environment now is nothing like the one in late period WCW, even though the dirt sheets might try to persuade you otherwise. Also, something like MMA has contributed to the public awareness that even if someone like George St. Pierre is "only' 5'10" 170lbs, he could systematically destroy just about any "tough guy" walking around today. This was not a part of the collective consciousness in 1997-98.
Smaller guys are abound in the WWE, and there are many reasons for it. The advent of harsher drug testing limits the ability of guys to reach the cartoon-ish physiques of yesteryear, but I think the most evident change is the following: Look at the guy who is being called "Mr. Hall of Fame" and "The Greatest In-Ring Performer of All Time".....Shawn Michaels. Now this isn't a size argument, although that is present too (6'1" 200-ish is fairly "normal.")
If you ask a bunch of the young guys coming up in WWE today who inspired them to be a wrestler, "Shawn Michaels" is an answer you hear a lot these days, where as ten years previous, you would have heard more answers of "Macho Man" and "Hulk Hogan" and ten years previous to that, you would have heard "Ric Flair" and "Ricky Steamboat." This is just another cycle of the business. In 2020, you will hear people who grew up on John Cena and Batista talking about how they wanted to look like them. Right now, you are getting smaller athletic guys like Bryan, Punk, Ziggler, Kofi, etc. who were were amazed at seeing Shawn Michaels in a the WM X ladder match, or Bret vs Owen at Summerslam.
This cycle is not going to last forever, and I'm sure there will be another swing toward larger guys sometime in the future. And once that fades, there will probably be a group of guys who were inspired by Ziggler, Bryan, Punk and their ilk and will want to bring that style back. Nash is not wrong that guys like Benoit and Eddie being atop changed the business, but he is wrong when he says that they killed it.
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Post by machomuta on Aug 8, 2012 14:29:25 GMT -5
Typical BS from Nash. You dont need to be 7 foot tall to be "larger then life" Flair and Austin were "larger then life" and they were small. No they weren't. They were average sized wrestlers, . Flair and Austin were small compared to most of the wrestlers who wrestled during the 80´s and 90´s.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Aug 8, 2012 14:31:27 GMT -5
Your point is valid, but I'm pretty positive that was him taking a shot at wrestling fans with the art museum thing, rather than other wrestlers.
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deancubed
Don Corleone
Playing League of Legends
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Post by deancubed on Aug 8, 2012 14:32:10 GMT -5
I predict in 10 years we will see guys trying to be the John Cena look combined with the Rey Mysterio moveset. Like some kind of video game CAWs that look too big to be doing that kind of stuff.
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andrew8798
FANatic
on 24/7 this month
Posts: 106,094
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Post by andrew8798 on Aug 8, 2012 14:34:53 GMT -5
Lance Storm:
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Post by Society of the Spectacle on Aug 8, 2012 14:36:49 GMT -5
Your point is valid, but I'm pretty positive that was him taking a shot at wrestling fans with the art museum thing, rather than other wrestlers. You're right, and I did go off a little bit on a tangent as it pertains to the wrestlers themselves. But I mean, I think there are a lot of people on this board that don't fit Nash's stereotype (not to toot my own horn, but in the last hour, half was me watching a PWG show from 2008, and the other half was spent reading a book on Lit. Theory.) On the same token though, there are a lot of people on the internet that do fit Nash's stereotype--that one guy that posted a twelve minute screaming response to the "Smart Mark" episode of AYS springs to mind--, so I think it shares the same sense of balance that my "cultured vs uncultured" wrestler argument proposed.
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 8, 2012 14:51:28 GMT -5
Is he? He's saying the same thing he said years ago, and it's still stupid. People may be talking, but the majority are talking about how illogical his argument is
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2012 14:56:06 GMT -5
Nash is a D list celebrity troll, ignore him
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,009
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Post by Celgress on Aug 8, 2012 14:56:32 GMT -5
Nash's Jericho tweet. He's on another level of trolling. Kevin Nash @realkevinnash Once again the puppet master pulls the marks strings .Knew Jericho was a closet mark.First one eliminated on a bulls*** sing show...REALLY!! vintage Kevin Nash (as I wrote in my post last night)
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Post by Error on Aug 8, 2012 14:56:37 GMT -5
Is he? He's saying the same thing he said years ago, and it's still stupid. People may be talking, but the majority are talking about how illogical his argument is He's got people talking and going to Grantland to read what he has to say and probably got a lot of offers for interviews pouring in to address the backlash. He went from an afterthought to the most talked about man in wrestling overnight by heeling on 4 people and trolling the internet again. Seems smart to me.
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Post by WarChief on Aug 8, 2012 14:58:13 GMT -5
No one is explaining how Nash is working anyone?
What is Nash going out and making asshole comments doing to benefit anyone, himself included?
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Cronant
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 17,556
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Post by Cronant on Aug 8, 2012 14:59:38 GMT -5
I predict in 10 years we will see guys trying to be the John Cena look combined with the Rey Mysterio moveset. Like some kind of video game CAWs that look too big to be doing that kind of stuff. I still think we'll be on the CM Punk/Daniel Bryan wannabe trend. Complete with STIFF KICKS!
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Post by Hit Girl on Aug 8, 2012 15:01:19 GMT -5
Is he? He's saying the same thing he said years ago, and it's still stupid. People may be talking, but the majority are talking about how illogical his argument is He's got people talking and going to Grantland to read what he has to say and probably got a lot of offers for interviews pouring in to address the backlash. He went from an afterthought to the most talked about man in wrestling overnight by heeling on 4 people and trolling the internet again. Seems smart to me. How long will that last? Smark controversies often blow over quickly.
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Celgress
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Superior One
Posts: 19,009
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Post by Celgress on Aug 8, 2012 15:01:55 GMT -5
Who the hell cares what Nash thinks anyway? His whole career was piggybacking off others or being tall. exactly
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Post by Error on Aug 8, 2012 15:21:13 GMT -5
He's got people talking and going to Grantland to read what he has to say and probably got a lot of offers for interviews pouring in to address the backlash. He went from an afterthought to the most talked about man in wrestling overnight by heeling on 4 people and trolling the internet again. Seems smart to me. How long will that last? Smark controversies often blow over quickly. Just long enough or he gets bored or has something else to promote and says the next stupid/trolling/working statement. That is the thing with Nash is he knows when to talk and when to shut up and he does it well. The fallout from this with most fans will die off fast but sites out there will gladly try and interview him in hopes of getting the next controversial statement and he'll get to plug his movie and investments like he did with this which only makes him more attractive to people who crave the attention Nash gets for their projects. Hell, it wouldn't shock me to hear he's signed on to wrestle and lose to some nameless indy guy based on these comments for a few grand either.
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