FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,456
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Post by FinalGwen on Jun 18, 2012 22:00:05 GMT -5
It might be an individual problem, in very rare cases. I can't imagine many of those, to be frank. Misandry is normally cried out when anyone challenges misogyny. But either way, it is NOT a societal problem. There is not an undercurrent of misandry that permeates society.
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H-Virus
Hank Scorpio
A Real Contagious Experience
Posts: 5,964
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Post by H-Virus on Jun 18, 2012 22:03:26 GMT -5
I'm on my way to be a game developer(All right,start the college!) and i will be sure to chekc the girls here about female character because i have a game in mind for one.And the ones here looks really clever!*cheap pop* so feedback would be good. One thing i think about going too far is for example..DoA goes TOO FAR for sexualization(for god sake they spend more time on breasts mechanics than game mechanics) Nah, not with DoA. With the DoA volleyball games, though? Yeah those games spent too much time on boobs than gameplay. But the DoA fighting games? Honestly some of the best gameplay in a fighting game series period, imo. Fast, hard hitting, and it is the only fighting game franchise where the stage actually matters, beyond having the threat of a ring out like some stages in other series have. I think the designers themselves were well aware of the game's true appeal. Not to mention in some of the games you could actually increase the 'jiggling' of the women. But I do agree that the series had awesome gameplay, and I spent just as much time playing the guys as I did the girls, so the games did have more going for them than just sexy women in fetish-outfits. Sexy, sexy fetish-outfits...
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Post by Michael Coello on Jun 18, 2012 22:04:12 GMT -5
Documentaries may cost money, but not for the ones she's trying to do. It's basically just to point out tropes and ideas from games through the years. There are no simulations, no reenactments, no costly research or anything. People could do this from their computer with a 20 buck AA battery digital camera. People have also done stuff like this, Extra Credits for one, and the monetary basis was over the talent used having personal issues, not using them, which she already has accounted for from her own video. Others have, too, with less attention and not asking for the price of a used car for doing it. It's not silly to ask the details over something like this, because even if it's not a lot of money, it's a lot considering she doesn't even need a dime of it if she had any kind of business savvy at all. Plus, she's not getting her original sum anyway. She's got way more than she needs due to the controversy, for something that didn't even need her "modest sum" in the first place! This is just a waste of resources, and calling it for what it is does not constitute misogyny on my part. If it was a dude doing the same thing over male tropes, it'd be the same problem. He's asking for money he doesn't need. Worst of all, I can't even complain about it cause then I'm being sexist. Game developers get short changed over a hundred bucks for campaigns cause "they can raise that much", but this person gets money for an internet video (let's not kid ourselves, that's all it is), the whole thing is just asinine. If you want to do the video, do it! She wanted to get paid for it, use Blip or any site like it. You do realize that the series itself will probably require a bunch of money spent on video games alone, right? If the intention is to actually study the medium herself, and likely capture video from them, and so on. And just because some people can throw together a cheap internet video does not mean a different video series can't have costs. Are you honestly suggesting that documentaries can't cost money to produce? On top of that, she's doing a DVD print run, as well. That costs money. There's a reason why ROH doesn't have all of their shows in stock. Oh yeah, I guess it's not just an Internet video after all. For someone who has no actual knowledge of the exact budget needed for the production she wants to do, you sure are quick to assign a cost to it. A few grand is not unrealistic for a documentary if it is going to attempt to be professional. And she is getting more money because people are willing to pay her. That's how kickstarter works. Clearly there is demand for what she is producing. You are awfully hostile towards someone for daring to try and get funding for a personal project. You don't care about it, then don't donate! But to go and bitch about it because other people like what she is about and want to see this funded and are speaking with their wallets and cry "wasting resources" is just silly as hell. It doesn't make you sexist, but you really don't have a valid reason to be outraged about this at all. Except. from what you just said, she's doing it ass backward, or at least making it more difficult than it has to be. She doesn't need to buy a bunch of games to find out the tropes, and the majority of them are advertising based, and could be found on a search of Youtube or a video game website. Cost: $0. There is absolutely no need to buy these games just to mention some random stuff in them. DVD, meanwhile, is honestly pointless. Digital distribution would do more to get the word out, and do better than trying to do it online one (where it ends up better off as digital) or trying to get them in stores. You're reach the same people you would get from DVD, and actually be more far reaching, without question. Put it on Blip or as a Youtube show, and get some money for it with that. Finally, the issue of "throwing together a cheap internet video", the whole thing lies with the writing, from the drafting to the scripts to the writing and trying to keep it engaging, none of that involves any kind of money to do. Whether it's a video on the net or a big motion picture, the writing can make a low budget thing soar or a big budget thing sink. A lot of those "cheap videos" you mention can and do deliver a strong message in them, even without 6,000 bucks to kick around, or 600 or even 60. Honestly, I don't have an issue with her doing this, just the avenue she's taken of it of "pimping it out".
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Post by lockedontarget on Jun 18, 2012 22:14:33 GMT -5
What the hell has she done wrong? Absolutely nothing seedy or dishonest has been done here. And forgive me of I don't consider you an authority on production costs. Even if you're right and this would literally cost nothing to make, which you likely are not, there is still equipment and labour costs. And it specifically says, plain and honestly on the kickstarter site, that money will go toward better quality equipment for this and future series from them. The more funding they've gotten, the more videos they have out into production. And it doesn't matter if you think they shouldn't do DVDs. They are. And that costs money. A cost that, again, is stated right the site.
And yeah, if she wants to actually consider this a well-researched project, her and her team sure as hell should be examining the games theirselves.
This is the entire goddamn point of kickstarter. You announce your project, declare how much money you need, and then it's in the hands of the people. The whole point is to see if there is a demand for your product, enough demand to justify the production costs and labour. People liked the proposed project, and donated money so it could get done. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Your objection has no meaningful foundation here.
And the fact that so many assholes have taken a personal offense to this to the point where she is getting horrible vile crap flung at her, like rape threats, is proof enough that gamer culture needs to start treating these topics seriously.
Don't like it? Don't pay for it. She is not entitled to your money and you are not entitled to decide how she makes her project and what other people want to spend on it.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 18, 2012 22:19:57 GMT -5
I'd say the worst case of societal misandry is when child custody cases after divorce overwhelmingly favor the mother for no other reason than because "she's the mother." Generally women are assumed to be better parents than men. It could be different in your neck of the woods, but it isn't unheard of here that men lose full custody of children to their mother even if the father is the more fit parent.
But that's really all I can think of where it's a real problem. Other examples I can think of, like stereotypical portrayals in the media, women either have it just as bad or much worse.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jun 18, 2012 22:20:11 GMT -5
I don't see anything wrong with her making a movie about this kind of thing. video games can be construed as being sexist. it's like any other form of media. women are only in the last 40-50 years starting to get true equality, and that can be a long struggle. it's not something that's going to happen over night, and some game series are making HUGE strides in it. and yeah, some gamers online are very hostile to women (though they're mostly hostile in general, irrespective of gender). that said, a bit of fanservice never hurt anyone, and as long as the game advertises itself as such (E.g. the DOA series, Lollipop Chainsaw), there's nothing wrong with that. it IS wrong to throw the entire media and its fans under the bus, but I don't think that's what either article is doing. you could say the same blanket statement about the comic industry (for example) and be wrong, but if you have legitimate arguments and grievances, I think it's fair to hear them out.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 18, 2012 22:22:55 GMT -5
This is the entire goddamn point of kickstarter. You announce your project, declare how much money you need, and then it's in the hands of the people. The whole point is to see if there is a demand for your product, enough demand to justify the production costs and labour. People liked the proposed project, and donated money so it could get done. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Your objection has no meaningful foundation here. And the fact that so many assholes have taken a personal offense to this to the point where she is getting horrible vile crap flung at her, like rape threats, is proof enough that gamer culture needs to start treating these topics seriously. The ironic thing is that those mongoloids that threw all sorts of rape threats and other misogynistic crap at her gave her Kickstarter project more publicity and thus, more support and money, than anything she could've down on her own. Well done, morons.
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erisi236
Fry's dog Seymour
... enjoys the rich, smooth taste of Camels.
Not good! Not good! Not good!
Posts: 21,904
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Post by erisi236 on Jun 18, 2012 22:27:40 GMT -5
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Post by Stone Cold Eleanor Shellstrop on Jun 18, 2012 22:28:23 GMT -5
I think you are confusing statements about a certain group of men as statements about men in general. He is bashing the misogynist idiots that are telling someone she should get raped for daring to make a study about sexism in video games. Are you seriously bitching because someone is using kickstarter to fund a series of documentaries? These things cost money, and there is nothing wrong with putting your idea out there and seeing if people want to help finance it. She has not demanded anything, and her actual goal was reasonable and realistic. You're kind of being a silly goose about this. Documentaries may cost money, but not for the ones she's trying to do. It's basically just to point out tropes and ideas from games through the years. There are no simulations, no reenactments, no costly research or anything. People could do this from their computer with a 20 buck AA battery digital camera. People have also done stuff like this, Extra Credits for one, and the monetary basis was over the talent used having personal issues, not using them, which she already has accounted for from her own video. Others have, too, with less attention and not asking for the price of a used car for doing it. It's not silly to ask the details over something like this, because even if it's not a lot of money, it's a lot considering she doesn't even need a dime of it if she had any kind of business savvy at all. Plus, she's not getting her original sum anyway. She's got way more than she needs due to the controversy, for something that didn't even need her "modest sum" in the first place! This is just a waste of resources, and calling it for what it is does not constitute misogyny on my part. If it was a dude doing the same thing over male tropes, it'd be the same problem. He's asking for money he doesn't need. Worst of all, I can't even complain about it cause then I'm being sexist. Game developers get short changed over a hundred bucks for campaigns cause "they can raise that much", but this person gets money for an internet video (let's not kid ourselves, that's all it is), the whole thing is just asinine. If you want to do the video, do it! She wanted to get paid for it, use Blip or any site like it. Just so people know the video that's being talked about if they haven't seen it yet! I really wish I lived in a world where research basically costs nothing, because, well, that would really save on my expenses for doing my PhD. And I live in Canada! I'm grateful that I don't have to worry about doing a doctorate with American tuition rates. $6000, the original amount asked for, in terms of doing a video series (having decent camera and editing equipment, plus the cost of production of DVDs), plus possible hiring of people to be involved in the actual production process, let alone buying games, consoles, accessories, and the possibility of touring a talk about representations of women in media... yeah, it kind of is a modest sum. And she's doing this research as an independent researcher, not as someone within a university or college institution, places that could at least supply her the very amount she's asking for. Heck, in my experience university institutions eschew funds to the business, engineering, and science departments while the arts and humanities departments are left wanting (which would be where her research would be placed if she were employed by a university). If her video didn't get the kind of response that it got, both good and bad, I don't even know if she would have gotten the full amount. And when you look at the Kickstarter numbers, in terms of number of donors, the majority of that money comes from people who chipped in $1, $10, $25. People really didn't break the bank on this. Perhaps so many people chipped in because they agree with her view and want to support her, maybe even more so when some gamers started attacking her because of it. But you're right, she's just making some internet video, like people who webcam their thoughts after a pay-per-view, so she shouldn't be getting all that money, despite the fact that once the project is done she will be making it free on Youtube (as stated in the initial Kickstarter video). And you're also right, who has any need for physical media to send to schools about the matter since every school has internet access, no? High-speed no less that can adequately stream Youtube-quality videos, yeah? (in fact, everyone knows that in the United States everyone has a computer and access to the internet). Plus, it makes perfect sense as a teacher (in terms of constructing a pedagogy) to have students sitting in front of a computer instead of spatially arranging a classroom so that the video might be discussed, which goes without saying that every school room has 20-30 computers in it to facilitate watching this video on Blip. And it's not like she's going to save the funds donated to this project and put them towards future video series or anything, because it's not like she's been doing video series projects for awhile. This isn't just about highlighting tropes or cliches. It's about creating educational tools and getting people to use those tools to think about and critique the media we consume. And $6000 to do so really isn't that much to do so, since the internet as a delivery medium for that message isn't the mythic bastion of a progressive public sphere that people make it out to be (as the five thousand plus dislikes for the Youtube video seemingly prove). Maybe I'm taking such offense to your reaction because as someone who teaches (being involved in a university institution no less, so I get the monetary concerns), I have to take pains to make sure students understand the history of concepts like feminism (the first, second, third, and post- waves) without them thinking that "feminism=misandry" which shockingly is how most 17-19 year olds that I've taught conceive of it. There's a disconnect somewhere that has to be addressed. If she's getting more money than she asked for to produce her message, a message I find to be quite valuable for young people, men AND women, gamers AND non-gamers, regarding these matters of identity, representation, and the politics of media, then more power to her, I say.
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Post by lockedontarget on Jun 18, 2012 22:29:11 GMT -5
This is the entire goddamn point of kickstarter. You announce your project, declare how much money you need, and then it's in the hands of the people. The whole point is to see if there is a demand for your product, enough demand to justify the production costs and labour. People liked the proposed project, and donated money so it could get done. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Your objection has no meaningful foundation here. And the fact that so many assholes have taken a personal offense to this to the point where she is getting horrible vile crap flung at her, like rape threats, is proof enough that gamer culture needs to start treating these topics seriously. The ironic thing is that those mongoloids that threw all sorts of rape threats and other misogynistic crap at her gave her Kickstarter project more publicity and thus, more support and money, than anything she could've down on her own. Well done, morons. Yup. I myself donated money. Not because I wanted to make a statement against the assholes, but because their reaction caused me to find out about the project in the first place.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jun 18, 2012 22:32:50 GMT -5
What the hell has she done wrong? Absolutely nothing seedy or dishonest has been done here. And forgive me of I don't consider you an authority on production costs. Even if you're right and this would literally cost nothing to make, which you likely are not, there is still equipment and labour costs. And it specifically says, plain and honestly on the kickstarter site, that money will go toward better quality equipment for this and future series from them. The more funding they've gotten, the more videos they have out into production. And it doesn't matter if you think they shouldn't do DVDs. They are. And that costs money. A cost that, again, is stated right the site. And yeah, if she wants to actually consider this a well-researched project, her and her team sure as hell should be examining the games theirselves. This is the entire goddamn point of kickstarter. You announce your project, declare how much money you need, and then it's in the hands of the people. The whole point is to see if there is a demand for your product, enough demand to justify the production costs and labour. People liked the proposed project, and donated money so it could get done. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Your objection has no meaningful foundation here. And the fact that so many assholes have taken a personal offense to this to the point where she is getting horrible vile crap flung at her, like rape threats, is proof enough that gamer culture needs to start treating these topics seriously. Don't like it? Don't pay for it. She is not entitled to your money and you are not entitled to decide how she makes her project and what other people want to spend on it. And the point I'm trying to make is she did not need Kickstarter. Just cause you say I don't know what I'm talking about doesn't mean what I'm saying isn't true. It's been done with Cinemassacre, and Channel Awesome, and Red Letter Media, and The Escapist. Extra Credits are some Windows movie Maker stills and art drawings with thought provoking words in them. She could have asked for 6 dollars and it would have changed f*** all in her overall plan! And trying to point out how I'm wrong or how "angry" I'm getting over or what crap some troll on youtube said it is not going to change that. Not once have you acknowledged that there might be a legitimate reason for why someone might not like this idea. I point out my views, point out the facts, explicitly state that there are better ways to do this. Yet, all I hear is "why are you so against it?" Because she's doesn't need that money. Plain and simple.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,456
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Post by FinalGwen on Jun 18, 2012 22:37:40 GMT -5
If she plans to distribute this professionally and make money from it, then she might encounter problems with rights. Y'know, it's why The Escapist can no longer use actual songs in Zero Punctuation without paying for it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2012 22:39:19 GMT -5
The problem with the original article is that it purports or heavily imples that nearly every female character in video games is either fanservice or in need of help from the big strong male character, which is just not true. I know it happens but I can also think of lots of examples of characters who don't fall into either category, and examples of male characters who don't fit the hulking he-man character type.
I think the article that Koda shared is more informative as it's first-hand experience and highlights a bigger problem, that game companies tend to view females as non-gamers, or at the very least gamers of only certain types of games, like casual Facebook games instead of shooters. I'd say that viewpoint is what leads to the over-sexualized characters.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 18, 2012 22:45:07 GMT -5
Can anyone name any truly reprehensible female characters out there? I know games like DOA/Rumble Roses exist but I just don't find those to be very strong examples because as far as I know they don't really sell. We all know what we're getting with a game like that and it wouldn't bother me if a DOA equivalent for women existed, and it absolutely would if there was a market for it.
I know games like Tomb Raider and Bio Ware games get heat for sexuality but at least for games like Mass Effect, and from what I see with the Tomb Raider games(haven't played much of them) there is strong characterization there and I think that's more important than physical appearance. I think there's validity to the argument that sometimes these developers don't have to make a girl's tits THAT big, and I know they use that as a scheme to get guys' attention. Women in games are generally tailor made to get guys riled up. But is it really any different than a book like Fifty Shades that caters to a woman's unrealistic idea of what makes a man a man? And is there truly anything wrong with capitalizing on that?
If a real awful, misogynistic game hit the market and made bank I'm more of the opinion that the onus is on the consumer more than the developer to take in the product as an adult, get what you need to get out of it and don't let it turn you into some sexist pig when you're out in the real world. It's a scary thing to me to start trying to depict any dos or don'ts in any art form because however strong or understated you utilize sexuality, violence, language, anything that goes with making a TV show, movie, video game, song, what have you should never be regulated. We as a society seem a lot more prone to be offended and want something taken away than we are to celebrate the arts that we feel should be held up on a pedestal and it gets really frustrating.
I think the original article has good intentions but other than the kickstarter thing(though the fact that there are idiots on the internet is no real revelation) but it doesn't really bring to light any examples in gaming today that I see as a real problem in the gaming world.
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Post by Cyno on Jun 18, 2012 22:49:56 GMT -5
I don't think there's a lot of outright misogynistic characters in video games. But there's definitely sexism. The two aren't the same and sexism doesn't even have to be malicious in intent or even a conscious act.
I'd say the outright misogyny is much more present in gamer culture than games themselves. Which makes me sad and ashamed to call myself a gamer.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jun 18, 2012 22:49:58 GMT -5
I really wish I lived in a world where research basically costs nothing, because, well, that would really save on my expenses for doing my PhD. And I live in Canada! I'm grateful that I don't have to worry about doing a doctorate with American tuition rates. Research for a college and research for a video are two different things. Books have notes and sources that supply internet links, all free, that share not only videos, interviews, promotional materials, and databases, but also add credibilitiy to the point your are putting out there. All cost nothing to get. It's a whole different thing to compare college to a internet video. And again, she's going by the distribution all wrong. And even with trying to get them to schools, DVD is not the only option. Hell, my old high school still has VCRs, should she put that on VHS, too? Maybe a powerpoint slide? More schools are wires that you give credit for, especially for the purposes of her study, especially with the topic being more in the upper range of education that are wired heavily. Not to mention those who access at home. This just seems like making excuses to try to justify it, and when I try to share my view, I'm called an asshole for it.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jun 18, 2012 22:50:07 GMT -5
Can anyone name any truly reprehensible female characters out there? I know games like DOA/Rumble Roses exist but I just don't find those to be very strong examples because as far as I know they don't really sell. We all know what we're getting with a game like that and it wouldn't bother me if a DOA equivalent for women existed, and it absolutely would if there was a market for it. they sell pretty well, and there's definitely a market for it. I wouldn't condemn people for liking cheesecake, but that's just me.
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Post by Michael Coello on Jun 18, 2012 22:55:16 GMT -5
And you know what? On the topic of sexism in games and general media, women have done more to damage the view of women than men could ever do. The Young Adult section of the bookstore, with a few exceptions, with the Jersey saga book like One for the Money, along with the resident beating horse Twilight, and other world things that I can't mention on this board. No amount of big boobs and butt gazing can cause as much damage as one dominated female protagonist that bonds to the girls they advertise to.
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FinalGwen
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Particularly fond of muffins.
Posts: 16,456
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Post by FinalGwen on Jun 18, 2012 23:15:53 GMT -5
And you know what? On the topic of sexism in games and general media, women have done more to damage the view of women than men could ever do. The Young Adult section of the bookstore, with a few exceptions, with the Jersey saga book like One for the Money, along with the resident beating horse Twilight, and other world things that I can't mention on this board. No amount of big boobs and butt gazing can cause as much damage as one dominated female protagonist that bonds to the girls they advertise to. Oh wow. I didn't think that the comment on the first page could be topped for rank ignorance. But there we are. "Oh sure, all of pop culture's geared against you and designed to sexualise you, but it's your fault for some of you liking series we disapprove of!"
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Post by Michael Coello on Jun 18, 2012 23:28:09 GMT -5
And you know what? On the topic of sexism in games and general media, women have done more to damage the view of women than men could ever do. The Young Adult section of the bookstore, with a few exceptions, with the Jersey saga book like One for the Money, along with the resident beating horse Twilight, and other world things that I can't mention on this board. No amount of big boobs and butt gazing can cause as much damage as one dominated female protagonist that bonds to the girls they advertise to. Oh wow. I didn't think that the comment on the first page could be topped for rank ignorance. But there we are. "Oh sure, all of pop culture's geared against you and designed to sexualise you, but it's your fault for some of you liking series we disapprove of!" It has nothing to do with disapproving of somethign they watch(Hell, i like Twilight). The argument is more that the pop culture stuff aimed at guys may be offensive to women, but it's mostly superficial compared to some of the stuff that not only is made with a women in mind, but is marketed heavy to them, like those two series are, cheesecake shots are really the least of the issues. There's no way to say how a stripperific outfit in a movie or comic can be worse than some of the tones in "One for the Money" or Cosmopolitan Magazine or even from the political arena to damage someone who sees them.
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