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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2012 13:22:20 GMT -5
It's our nature.
Mankind always finds stuff to complain, and pro wrestling is no execption. It's not like we hate everything or are perfectionists; we all have different tastes or viewpoints on certain stuff, and we tend to make our viewpoints in haste.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2012 13:26:26 GMT -5
I suppose the bigger issue is really just that people should try to respect each other more and perhaps show a little more humility with their opinions (without having to always qualify yourself though, IMO we already know it's just your opinion), but I'm not about to hold my breath on that one. I could hug you. I'm not holding my breath either though. What kind of nonsense is this? respecting others? Showing humility? Next you're going to suggest that other people might have thoughts that differ than ours and they aren't automatically wrong. NOT ON MY INTERNET!
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 3, 2012 13:57:37 GMT -5
A mixture between passion, impatience and the need to be the "right" type of fan.
The first two aren't nessacarily bad traits, the last one is though.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jan 3, 2012 14:09:26 GMT -5
Because we don't know how great we've got it?
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Post by Metalheadbanger Man on Jan 3, 2012 14:12:48 GMT -5
I would guess its because sometimes stuff happens that we don't enjoy.
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MrBRulzOK
Wade Wilson
Mr No-Pants Heathen
Something Witty Here.
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Post by MrBRulzOK on Jan 3, 2012 14:20:40 GMT -5
Simple really. People tend to be more opinionated about things they enjoy. Alot of us love professional wrestling and we simply want to see them do well. We want to be able to enjoy the show every week and not worry about having our intelligence insulted or being constantly trolled by a certain commentator to nobody's benefit.
Sure, there are times when we get pissed off-- I know I have quite a few times-- with some of the directions they go, but in the end we still care enough to stick with it no matter how bad things get. And that's because alot of us still care about professional wrestling. We don't want to be run off with terrible booking and nonsensical storylines; we want to be able to tune in every week and be rewarded with a product that appeals to us.
And really one of the best ways to vent your frustrations about a show is to post your opinions on a board like this. It's better to say what you really think about a show rather than to bottle up your feelings and pretend that everything is still hunky dory despite all evidence pointing to the contrary.
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Post by tmoney404 on Jan 3, 2012 14:31:32 GMT -5
I don't know, but there's something about wrestling, especially the internet that makes this culture unique in its hate.
There always seems to be more criticism on the internet regarding videogames, movies, sports, etc. because I'd wager just by virtue of using the internet and wanting to post on message boards, ESPECIALLY with a site as self-deprecating as Wrestlecrap (and that's what brought me to this forum, I don't really understand what the difference between this and Wrestlecrap was/is) people are more intellectually honest with the product, as opposed to say, the WWE Universe fanpage on Facebook.
But damn, does wrestling not have the absolute worst critics in the world. I think there is a predisposition amongst internet wrestling fans to want to hate what they see. I bet if we were browsing WWF forums in 1999-2000 or earlier we'd still see the same sort of patterns you see here and don't get me wrong, this forum is not out of control, but there's still plenty of hate for the sake of hate.
Like, you won't find an official RAW thread that doesn't have "Can't wait to see how WWE screws up _______" hours before RAW starts, or "For the first time in ages, I'm actually going to watch this show just to see how this pans out, but if it doesn't pan out like this, I'm DONE" (seriously, I loved how often people are DONE with the WWE on here because of something as stupid as a pro wrestling gimmick) or my ultimate favorite, when we call the bookers, promoters, wrestlers, camerman, ring crew idiots because you know, WE know how to run a company as lucrative and robust as the WWE better than who's doing it right now.
Look, I said we because I'm just as guilty. I hate it too sometimes. I stopped watching WWE altogether from around 2002 til just this summer, but I still had a profound love for professional wrestling from the entire lifetime I've been glued to WWF/E.
All I will say is this: I have been a wrestling fan my entire life, but just made it to my first live event last fall. When I went, the first thing I noticed was just how grand a scale the WWE is on. The production, the pyrotechnics, the music, the elaborate set. The way the camera crew, announcers and talent all worked together to run a tight ship on primetime cable TV and in hundreds of countries around the world. The sheer magnitude of merchandising, sponsorships and tie ins from huge corporations wanting a piece of the WWE's proverbial pie.
That's what pisses us off, that the WWE got so freaking big and so freaking powerful by transcending "pro wrestling" and making itself into something different altogether. And WE, the internet community, the Jim Cornettes of this world, we hate that. We sometimes don't understand why the crowd goes mild for Daniel Bryan but goes nuts when they hear Alex Riley's music (I don't understand either). Sometimes, we just can't admit that the stupid movies, spinoffs, toys, abandoning the word wrestling, all the crap WWE has done is what's made it so powerful. Not just good booking or 5 star matches. It's perplexing, but true and I find that wrestling is much more enjoyable when you can appreciate just how big a behemoth WWE is in spite of its challenges.
Oh and I also forgot the whole self-righteousness being "smart" to the business gives us. You know, how we (myself included) feel so cool sometimes knowing how this spot worked or didn't work, who botched what, who has major heat with who over what or how they NEED to build this person or we don't understand why they're pushing so and so...you know, sort of like how we all know the play NFL coaches should have called in the 4th quarter when it didn't work out the next day...yet none of us seem to be popping up in NFL uniforms or WWE booking rooms no matter how hard we try.
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Bo Rida
Fry's dog Seymour
Pulled one over on everyone. Got away with it, this time.
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Post by Bo Rida on Jan 3, 2012 14:36:02 GMT -5
Another issue is that everybody has their own idea of what a wrestling show should be like so the major promotions will never be able to satisfy everybody.
This is less of a problem with other media as there tends to me much more variety that is usually easily accessible; as a result there is always something to appeal to any niche audience imaginable.
On the other hand the major wrestling promotions have to try and please all the people all the time.
However I don't think wrestling fans are any worse than other fanbases, I'll take any stupid wrestling argument over obsessed shippers and fan-girls crying that their favourite character was killed off.
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Post by molson5 on Jan 3, 2012 14:38:40 GMT -5
There was a Grantland.com article a while ago that I thought had a good take on this. Whether it's a movie, book, pro wrestling, music, or whatever, we all have one idea in our head that we think is the very best idea (see, for example, the million posts here about what the "correct" result of a match was, or how to book a guy "properly").....The odds of booker or author, or director actually matching the one idea in our head is about 1 in a million (and it might actually be 0 in a million, because our "great" idea my be impossible based on behind-the-scenes stuff we don't even know about). Which inevitably leads to a lot of disappointment, a feeling that our idea was superior, and an idea that the company or TV show "isn't listening to the fans" (because we tend to believe that our idea for something is more widespread than it really is.)
I heard Jeff Probst (host of the U.S. version of "Survivor") go on a rant about this once. There's a similar contingent of Survivor haters/mega-fans who think they know the answers to everything and that everyone associated with the show is a moron. Probst was kind of exasperated because that's his livelihood, he's spending his entire career on this, there's millions of dollars at stake, and he's privy to all the practical limitations of the show's production - and yet - an internet poster in Wisconsin with no stake in anything, no professional experience, thinks that everyone involved with the show is stupid for not doing things HIS way. Wrestling execs have actually dealt with the internet hate a lot longer than most other entertainment entities, so I think they've learned just to ignore it rather than fan the flames.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Jan 3, 2012 14:42:51 GMT -5
I'm okay with complaining. If you watched RAW in hopes of seeing a good match or some cool storylines, but all you got was a bunch of silly segments and squash matches, you should complain about it. Don't just pretend that you liked it. Complaining is better than just completely writing off wrestling. That said, it really irritates me when people complain about stuff like "he doesn't draw fans" or "WWE would make more money if they did this...". It's like, why the hell do you care about that? I just wish people would complain and praise what they personally like or don't like. Stop trying to think for other people because A.) you don't know what others think and B.) you're just a fan. Or actually, complain however you want to. Just don't expect me to like it
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Post by tmoney404 on Jan 3, 2012 14:45:25 GMT -5
That is a good point. The truest thing about wrestling promoters is most have been great creative minds, but awful businessmen. It's laughably sad how many millions of dollars, franchises and such have been squandered in wrestling. There's a reason why the territories folded and why the only legitimate competitor to the WWF's throne was bought out by Vince McMahon. It's the same reason why my girlfriend who's never watched more than 5 minutes of wrestling in her life knows Stone Cold when she sees his face on TV or The Rock. It's the same reason that you can buy a John Cena action figure in any Wal-Mart or toy store in America. Or why you could spot a Broski shirt in Dubai or Saudi Arabia.
Vince McMahon has gone against the grain of most great wrestling bookers because he's a savvy businessman. He knows what the people want and he knows how to handle the egos and millions of dollars that come with it.
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Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Jan 3, 2012 14:50:00 GMT -5
Because Conflict is the essence of drama.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2012 15:02:14 GMT -5
It is a worked form of entertainment that presents itself as legitimate competition that mixes the spectacle of sport with the plot lines of a soap opera. Think about how much emotion that can generate; now, add in the knowledge that what happens to characters often reflects what happens to the performer's status backstage. If one of your favorite wrestlers starts losing week in and week out, loses entrance music, changes attire, etc. there's a good chance that wrestle will be released. If one of your least favorite wrestlers starts getting a lot of time and material to work with and starts winning all the time, then you'll most likely have to see someone that you don't like over and over again. That's a lot of "stress" for a fan.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2012 15:28:19 GMT -5
Also, because of dirtsheet sites, the fans are influenced to think of everything in business terms, instead of just going gut feeling, do I like this or not? It seems that half the time, half the people on this board are thinking about how "the masses" or "the casual fan" will receive something. That's gonna make it harder to like something too, because at that point you're becoming a critic, you're leaving your own thought process and trying to put yourself in someone else's, someone who doesn't get the show like you do, so of course you're inclined to think critically and negatively. You are so spot on with this. It runs rampant here. It's more rare to get a conversation going about preferences and opinion than ever before. All someone wants to do is throw ratings numbers in your face or talk about draws. In the context of a thread about those subjects it's fine, but it's disheartening to see how many people here seem to only think about what they like in wrestling in the context of what everyone else does. No wonder so many come off miserable and negative about everything. Why do you think that came about? Like, I'm curious as to people's opinions as to how/when the change started.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Jan 3, 2012 15:42:25 GMT -5
I want to take this opportunity to say that I love this board. For a while I thought I would never find a board that was actually fun to discuss wrestling in, until I found this place. You guys are all great.
Wrestling is strange that sometimes people take things so damn personally, kind of like a mixture of a sports fan and a critic. Sometimes they go "YEAH I'M PROUD TO HATE WRESTLER X" and go out of their way to find a reason to hate the guy. Here it's a bit different since most people here don't try to taunt each other and just like to watch the show.
The critic mindset is also a problem, but I gotta say, this is the best board on the internet(by far) in terms of how we can mark the hell out for minor things. Just check the Kane brings Ryder and Cena to hell thread and compare it to any thread on any other wrestling forum. Any wrestling forum.
Do wrestling fans take it too seriously? Definitely. But I think we got a pretty good balance between serious analysis and just being goofballs going on here, and I wouldn't change it.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Jan 3, 2012 17:15:25 GMT -5
Do wrestling fans take it too seriously? Definitely. But I think we got a pretty good balance between serious analysis and just being goofballs going on here, and I wouldn't change it. I'll ask you, how serious is "too" serious?
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Jan 3, 2012 17:35:19 GMT -5
Do wrestling fans take it too seriously? Definitely. But I think we got a pretty good balance between serious analysis and just being goofballs going on here, and I wouldn't change it. I'll ask you, how serious is "too" serious? The moment you start to insult people for liking a character you don't like, that's when you are taking it too seriously. You see it a lot on other forums but not so much here.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Jan 3, 2012 17:46:59 GMT -5
Simple really. People tend to be more opinionated about things they enjoy. Alot of us love professional wrestling and we simply want to see them do well. We want to be able to enjoy the show every week and not worry about having our intelligence insulted or being constantly trolled by a certain commentator to nobody's benefit. Sure, there are times when we get pissed off-- I know I have quite a few times-- with some of the directions they go, but in the end we still care enough to stick with it no matter how bad things get. And that's because alot of us still care about professional wrestling. We don't want to be run off with terrible booking and nonsensical storylines; we want to be able to tune in every week and be rewarded with a product that appeals to us. And really one of the best ways to vent your frustrations about a show is to post your opinions on a board like this. It's better to say what you really think about a show rather than to bottle up your feelings and pretend that everything is still hunky dory despite all evidence pointing to the contrary. People that are happy with the direction of the product aren't necessarily in denial of anything- maybe they just like what they see. For every fan that was embarrased by a segment, I'm certain you'll find a couple more who were entertained by it. I think a lot of us have a specific idea of what we think wrestling ought to be. When that gets too rigid and inflexible, that's when constructive criticism de-evolves into arguments. For example, I loved the ending to last night's Raw, while I'm sure there were those who thought it was too campy. I might disagree, but I'm not going to accuse them of being an inferior fan or anything like that, and hopefully they won't do so either. There's nothing wrong with criticism, but there's a lot wrong with looking down on other fans because they might have liked something you didn't. The moment you accuse anyone of being "brainwashed" or being a "sheep", you've crashed and burned. I'll ask you, how serious is "too" serious? See: Jericho's return, Thread #1.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Jan 3, 2012 17:48:30 GMT -5
I don't have a problem with people criticizing the product, even if it's about things I think the product is doing right. Though I think a lot of it comes from people who have invested a lot more time in the product (say, years). If you've watched wrestling for 30 years or so, you're going to be a lot more critical just because you've seen more of the product and you know what to look for. Since you've watched from the days of Reagan and crack, you've invested so much time it feels pretty horrible the product you've watched when you were a kid might kinda suck in the grand scheme of things. Then comes the part where you gain more perspective on the product and still love it despite its flaws...and I forgot where I was going with that so I'm just going to quote someone then respond. The moment you start to insult people for liking a character you don't like, that's when you are taking it too seriously. You see it a lot on other forums but not so much here. Oh no. It all depends on what type of analysis you have about the product, THEN the insults start flying. Search your heart, you know it to be true. And I don't even care for Star Wars...
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Post by Cela on Jan 3, 2012 18:15:31 GMT -5
Because we've been watching for decades and know it can get better.
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