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Post by moneyman20 on Jan 3, 2012 18:16:21 GMT -5
Because we're passionate and we think that there are things that wrestling companies can do better. Some of them are right, some of them are wrong. But, that's what discussion boards like this are for. To sort out the good ideas from the bad.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Jan 3, 2012 18:18:28 GMT -5
See: Jericho's return, Thread #1. I see it. Lots of passionate people. And the problem is.......?
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Post by Shaun2k5 on Jan 3, 2012 19:19:07 GMT -5
Also, because of dirtsheet sites, the fans are influenced to think of everything in business terms, instead of just going gut feeling, do I like this or not? It seems that half the time, half the people on this board are thinking about how "the masses" or "the casual fan" will receive something. That's gonna make it harder to like something too, because at that point you're becoming a critic, you're leaving your own thought process and trying to put yourself in someone else's, someone who doesn't get the show like you do, so of course you're inclined to think critically and negatively. You are so spot on with this. It runs rampant here. It's more rare to get a conversation going about preferences and opinion than ever before. All someone wants to do is throw ratings numbers in your face or talk about draws. In the context of a thread about those subjects it's fine, but it's disheartening to see how many people here seem to only think about what they like in wrestling in the context of what everyone else does. No wonder so many come off miserable and negative about everything. What's more disheartening is that people can't just accept that some people didn't like something. Take Jericho's return. Some people don't like it because it wasn't good TV. That's an opinion yet you took that as an invitation to kick/stomp/beat the other persons opinion into submission. Problem in this day and age is people say they have an opinion but what they actually mean is "I'm right, you're wrong".
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trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,605
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Post by trollrogue on Jan 3, 2012 19:27:19 GMT -5
Point of catharsis: the views that Michael Cole has on the air during commentary are opinions that are just as valid as any of ours. Wowsers.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2012 19:27:55 GMT -5
Point of catharsis: the views that Michael Cole has on the air during commentary are opinions that are just as valid as any of ours. Wowsers. Michael Cole doesn't count.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jan 3, 2012 19:29:41 GMT -5
Certain "fans" only want to see things happen one way and anyone or anything thay screws that up is an asshole and will be hated and blamed for everything. Other fans just watch the show to enjoy it and while they may have expectations, do not only wish to see things a certain way.
Ex: Triple H as COO. I enjoyed probably every Raw when Triple H was COO, but a lot of people refused to just enjoy it for what it was because CM Punk was no longer the focus of anything.
You know, some fans are willing to poke fun at WWE for ratings excuses, but when their favorites lose pushes and such for being bad draws, all of the excuses come out. Pretty much the internet overestimates its true impact on the WWE.
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Post by Savage Gambino on Jan 3, 2012 19:33:47 GMT -5
Because everyone wants to be the "smartest" fan, so that non-fans will find that being a fan is "respectable". "Don't you understand? If every [insert something here] fan was like me, you wouldn't think it's so shameful!" People want a product that they can proudly show to non-fans as being respectable on an intellectual level. Despite the fact that it's about as likely as an anime you can "show to non-fans as being respectable on an intellectual level." And I say that as a huge fan of anime. I think Vince McMahon actually said it best: "To those who believe in the beauty of professional wrestling, nothing needs to be said. For those who don't appreciate wrestling, nothing could be said to change their minds."
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Post by AztecaDragon on Jan 3, 2012 19:39:37 GMT -5
"To those who believe in the beauty of professional wrestling, nothing needs to be said. For those who don't appreciate wrestling, nothing could be said to change their minds." What's even the point of that quote? I can't stop reading it as ridiculous.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jan 3, 2012 19:41:53 GMT -5
"To those who believe in the beauty of professional wrestling, nothing needs to be said. For those who don't appreciate wrestling, nothing could be said to change their minds." What's even the point of that quote? I can't stop reading it as ridiculous. That some people will never be satisfied with what you do so there's no reason to even attempt to please them.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Jan 3, 2012 19:43:19 GMT -5
What's even the point of that quote? I can't stop reading it as ridiculous. That some people will never be satisfied with what you do so there's no reason to even attempt to please them. Really?Okay.
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Post by Piccolo on Jan 3, 2012 19:46:49 GMT -5
You may as well ask why we, as fans, praise so many things. Praise, criticism, and interpretation are the natural reactions to viewing art.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 3, 2012 20:07:57 GMT -5
I think we complain because we think we could do it better. We think we could have created a better idea, could have booked the angle better, etc. Pretty much. But then again, this doesn't just apply to wrestling fans. It applies to fans of everything.
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trollrogue
Hank Scorpio
Nashville City of Music!!
Posts: 5,605
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Post by trollrogue on Jan 3, 2012 20:18:01 GMT -5
As to the anime thing, show your friends a movie like Millenium Actress and they might become an anime fan for life.
Likewise, show your friends HBK vs. Undertaker, or HBK vs Flair at Wrestlemania. Or any of Hollywood Rock's promos, and they might see the appeal.
I sure as hell became a fan of pro Basketball watching the Bulls three-peat in the '93 Finals with that miracle 3-pointer to win the game/NBA Championship in the final seconds. Fandom is some strange and magical stuff.
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Post by celticjobber on Jan 3, 2012 20:35:04 GMT -5
There's people who complain about everything online (movies, tv shows, bands, sports, radio shows, etc). It's been that way since the beginning.
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Post by King Boo on Jan 3, 2012 20:46:20 GMT -5
You are so spot on with this. It runs rampant here. It's more rare to get a conversation going about preferences and opinion than ever before. All someone wants to do is throw ratings numbers in your face or talk about draws. In the context of a thread about those subjects it's fine, but it's disheartening to see how many people here seem to only think about what they like in wrestling in the context of what everyone else does. No wonder so many come off miserable and negative about everything. What's more disheartening is that people can't just accept that some people didn't like something. Take Jericho's return. Some people don't like it because it wasn't good TV. That's an opinion yet you took that as an invitation to kick/stomp/beat the other persons opinion into submission. Problem in this day and age is people say they have an opinion but what they actually mean is "I'm right, you're wrong". This defense is only ever invoked when the opinion is a negative one. I'm constantly hearing that when someone slams something, I'm supposed to just accept it, because that's their opinion. Which is true - people are more than allowed to dislike whatever they want. The problem that occurs is two-fold. 1 - The people with the negative opinion about the topic at hand tend to speak as though their opinions are facts. To bring it to the Jericho return, since that's most recent - I read more than one person, sometimes the same person more than once, speak as though their criticisms are an irrefutable fact and thus, problem as opposed to the opinions that they really are. I kept reading that the "problem" is that Jericho is "boring", "uninteresting" and "runs gimmicks into the ground a few months after debuting it". While that may be a true sentiment for the person stating it, it's not a universal truth. Their opinion is spoken like it's the reality of a situation and it always rings as elitist and know it all. You don't speak for me and your opinion doesn't carry any more weight than mine, either. 2 - The defense is never applied to any positive opinions. If I have a positive opinion that differs from your negative one, I'm just as allowed to have it and voice it as you are. I shouldn't be met with constant barrages of negativity - you can discuss why you don't agree, but you should also let me be excited in peace the way I'm supposed to let you hate in peace. I also shouldn't be told that the reason I like something is for some untrue reason like I'm a blind fan or whathaveyou. I actually read last night someone say they were more mad because there were people who enjoyed a segment they disliked so much. That's not accepting my opinion gracefully, is it? You say it's disheartening that people can't "accept" that someone doesn't like something (I speak for myself when I say I accept fully when someone's opinion doesn't match mine because I learned long ago that the world doesn't revolve around me and my preferences), I say it's disheartening to have people constantly raining on your parade because you choose to like something they don't.
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Post by jadison on Jan 3, 2012 21:44:19 GMT -5
You are so spot on with this. It runs rampant here. It's more rare to get a conversation going about preferences and opinion than ever before. All someone wants to do is throw ratings numbers in your face or talk about draws. In the context of a thread about those subjects it's fine, but it's disheartening to see how many people here seem to only think about what they like in wrestling in the context of what everyone else does. No wonder so many come off miserable and negative about everything. What's more disheartening is that people can't just accept that some people didn't like something. Take Jericho's return. Some people don't like it because it wasn't good TV. That's an opinion yet you took that as an invitation to kick/stomp/beat the other persons opinion into submission. Problem in this day and age is people say they have an opinion but what they actually mean is "I'm right, you're wrong". I was in that thread a lot, and really the main people bashing others were the ones that hated it, saying "it sucked and you know it. you only like it cuz you like Jericho". How about "I didn't like that. I get what he was trying to do, but it was so grating and made me want to change the channel"? See how one is an opinion and the other is flame bait? Once you're saying "you people only think x because y", stop and turn around.
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Post by Piccolo on Jan 3, 2012 23:13:00 GMT -5
I read more than one person, sometimes the same person more than once, speak as though their criticisms are an irrefutable fact and thus, problem as opposed to the opinions that they really are. I kept reading that the "problem" is that Jericho is "boring", "uninteresting" and "runs gimmicks into the ground a few months after debuting it". While that may be a true sentiment for the person stating it, it's not a universal truth. Their opinion is spoken like it's the reality of a situation and it always rings as elitist and know it all. You don't speak for me and your opinion doesn't carry any more weight than mine, either. 2 - The defense is never applied to any positive opinions. If I have a positive opinion that differs from your negative one, I'm just as allowed to have it and voice it as you are. I shouldn't be met with constant barrages of negativity - you can discuss why you don't agree, but you should also let me be excited in peace the way I'm supposed to let you hate in peace. I also shouldn't be told that the reason I like something is for some untrue reason like I'm a blind fan or whathaveyou. 1 - This is a message board. It is implicit that people are stating their opinions. I didn't see you, or anyone who thought the segment was great, qualifying every single statement in every single post with "IMO". That doesn't mean you were stating your opinions as facts. It just means you were posting normally on a message board. The same goes for the people you're talking about. "Jericho is boring" is a completely reasonable way to state an opinion. 2 - No one is exempt from hearing a dissenting opinion. "I shouldn't be met with constant barrages of negativity" and "you should also let me be excited in peace" seem to imply that you shouldn't have to hear any opinion that differs from your own... that the very act of expressing that opinion is "raining on your parade." Is that what you meant to imply? Also, plenty of untrue statements were made about people who expressed negative opinions. Ie, they just didn't understand it, or they're morons, or they're thickheaded, or they have no patience, or they hate everything and should stop watching. Very aggressive, unkind words, leveled at people for no good reason. Basically, I think the guiding principle should be that we respect each others' right to feel the way we feel, and to voice it.
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The OP
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
changed his name
Posts: 15,785
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Post by The OP on Jan 3, 2012 23:28:36 GMT -5
Some people do tend to go overboard with negativity though. For example, I'm not gonna name any names, but there is a guy here who I swear goes out of his way to try to kill any thread about a certain wrestler who will also remain nameless. It's hard for me to explain without naming names, but it's like if there's a thread about that wrestler every other post is that guy arguing with anyone who had something positive to say. To me that's excessive and kind of being a jerk. It's one thing to say you don't like something and move on, but there's no need to go around and actively try to ruin it for people who do.
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Post by rocked on Jan 3, 2012 23:30:11 GMT -5
Wrestling fans are not miserable. Any time I've been to a show, you don't hear people moaning and crying, they are having a good time, smiling, laughing etc.
Internet fans are miserable, and this is scientific fact. And misery loves company. I often believe people also bitch and moan and slag off things they actually LOVED in order to stir shit. Just my opinion of course. If you're quick to jump on it, you're probably the latter, and shame on you.
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Post by Piccolo on Jan 3, 2012 23:34:32 GMT -5
Some people do tend to go overboard with negativity though. For example, I'm not gonna name any names, but there is a guy here who I swear goes out of his way to try to kill any thread about a certain wrestler who will also remain nameless. It's hard for me to explain without naming names, but it's like if there's a thread about that wrestler every other post is that guy arguing with anyone who had something positive to say. To me that's excessive and kind of being a jerk. It's one thing to say you don't like something and move on, but there's no need to go around and actively try to ruin it for people who do. And some go overboard with the Pollyanna-ing. And some go overboard with the anti-smark bias. And some go overboard with fanboying a certain wrestler, and some go overboard with anti-fanboying a certain other wrestler. We could lump all people in together and justify personal attacks against people who have just expressed their first negative opinion today by saying that there's this other guy who's negative all the time, or we could treat everyone like the individuals they are. This happens a lot with the "hypocrisy" threads, actually... "Oh, you in the IWC are such hypocrites for liking ____, because I read some post two years ago that disliked ____. HYPOCRITES." Except that post they read two years ago was by some guy who doesn't even post here anymore. (And frankly, I don't think personal attacks against the constantly negative guy are okay, either. I think we should debate about the opinions, not about whether the person is bad for holding them, should be allowed to express them at all, etc.)
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