Arrow
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,122
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Post by Arrow on Jan 8, 2013 0:40:57 GMT -5
His promo sucked. His promos have sucked. I don't care if the fans cheer for it, it just means they cheer something bad. Just because the fans cheer for something doesn't make it automatically good. I'm sure there are times when the fans have cheered for stuff, you've disagreed and thought whatever it was was not good. You shouldn't base everything off crowd reaction. Rock could go out there and give a terrible promo, a promo so bad that it makes Freight Train's promos seem like Ric Flair's and people would still cheer and call him a great promo guy. Just because you can get crowd reaction does not make what you actually say any good. No, I don't always agree with a crowd, but that doesn't mean that the promo sucked. It means I didn't like it. There's a vast difference between the two. Promos are meant to be entertaining. The crowd cheers (or boos) when they're entertained. Therefore the entertainment factor of a promo is indicated how well it works on an audience. So yes, I could say Rock's promo was good. Because he hit all his points, he sold the match, he spoke in character, he got the fans to cheer him and boo Punk (and that's not to take anything away from Punk, because he more than did his part and got people to cheer Rock and boo him). And most importantly? He entertained the people. The right crowd reaction is what these wrestlers strive for when they cut promos and to ignore it in a discussion is insane. What other criteria am I supposed to use?
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jan 8, 2013 0:44:03 GMT -5
Wait. ...Ice Cream? MOTHERf***ERSI'M CALLING THIS. ROCK AND PUNK ARE ON THE SAME SECRET STABLE. THIS HAS BEEN THEIR PLAN ALL ALONG. And THESE GUYS are behind everything new boom period The Ice Cream Shield.
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Post by Brother Nero....Wolfe on Jan 8, 2013 0:44:17 GMT -5
His promo sucked. His promos have sucked. I don't care if the fans cheer for it, it just means they cheer something bad. Just because the fans cheer for something doesn't make it automatically good. I'm sure there are times when the fans have cheered for stuff, you've disagreed and thought whatever it was was not good. Not quite, no. I've personally looked at a promo and went "Man, that didn't do it for me. But he certainly got the crowd riled up." Take Punk's promo tonight for example--not all points were perfect hits with me. Some fell pretty flat. But I think it was pretty good because you can tell what audience he's going for, how he plans to connect with that audience, and his delivery. Likewise with The Rock you can see what type of fan he's trying to connect with, how he's trying to connect with, and his delivery. It's hard to call it a bad promo when Rock achieved a success in all of those categories, even if you didn't like it. People turning on Rock is also unlikely - with Cena the feud lasted one year and the only city that got even remotely pro-Cena was Boston, which, you know. In addition, Punk's promo is aimed at alienating the audience - the better Punk got throughout the night the more the audience sided with Rock. Punk's aim is to be a heel and be hated, that much was clear from tonight. So if like you said Punk's promos keep getting better and better...then he's just gonna make the crowd like Rock more.
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Post by DSR on Jan 8, 2013 0:45:33 GMT -5
When the thing most people are talking about is a line stolen from a rap song, it's hard to be impressed. Hey now. There are worse lines Punk could've stolen from rap songs. "Rock, I'm gonna kick your ass. Cause at the Royal Rumble, you're gonna find out that I'm 2 Legit 2 Quit!
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Post by SeVeN: #TheBadGuy. on Jan 8, 2013 0:46:14 GMT -5
I have to admit I've despised the rock since his very first appearance. However when he returns lately I don't like him, all the way up to his promo. By the end of it I'm psyched for whatever hes involved in. Same thing happened tonight, him and punk killed it.
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Post by Mayonnaise on Jan 8, 2013 0:47:48 GMT -5
FFS, I thought that "I hated it so it sucked and people just like stuff that sucks" or the "No you have no clue about this business, if the crowd loves it, it was good" crap was left with Rock/Cena last year.
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Post by slappy on Jan 8, 2013 0:48:16 GMT -5
His promo sucked. His promos have sucked. I don't care if the fans cheer for it, it just means they cheer something bad. Just because the fans cheer for something doesn't make it automatically good. I'm sure there are times when the fans have cheered for stuff, you've disagreed and thought whatever it was was not good. You shouldn't base everything off crowd reaction. Rock could go out there and give a terrible promo, a promo so bad that it makes Freight Train's promos seem like Ric Flair's and people would still cheer and call him a great promo guy. Just because you can get crowd reaction does not make what you actually say any good. No, I don't always agree with a crowd, but that doesn't mean that the promo sucked. It means I didn't like it. There's a vast difference between the two. Promos are meant to be entertaining. The crowd cheers (or boos) when they're entertained. Therefore the entertainment factor of a promo is indicated how well it works on an audience. So yes, I could say Rock's promo was good. Because he hit all his points, he sold the match, he spoke in character, he got the fans to cheer him and boo Punk (and that's not to take anything away from Punk, because he more than did his part and got people to cheer Rock and boo him). And most importantly? He entertained the people. The right crowd reaction is what these wrestlers strive for when they cut promos and to ignore it in a discussion is insane. Again, just because they cheer does not make the promo good. Take away the crowd and just listen to what he says. It's not good. You seemingly only think it's good because the fans are there to cheer him on. He could just go out there and say "Punk is poopy" 30 times in a row and nothing else and they'd cheer and chant it. That does not mean it was a good promo, it means the fans have been conditioned to accept Rock's terrible promo or anyone else's childish humor. The fans cheered when AJ and Dolph got covered in crap. That does not mean it was a good segment. The crowd is not always right.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 8, 2013 0:48:27 GMT -5
When the thing most people are talking about is a line stolen from a rap song, it's hard to be impressed. Hey now. There are worse lines Punk could've stolen from rap songs. "Rock, I'm gonna kick your ass. Cause at the Royal Rumble, you're gonna find out that I'm 2 Legit 2 Quit! Virgil already did that once, actually. Check SummerSlam 1992.
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Post by "Cane Dewey" Johnson on Jan 8, 2013 0:50:56 GMT -5
No, I don't always agree with a crowd, but that doesn't mean that the promo sucked. It means I didn't like it. There's a vast difference between the two. Promos are meant to be entertaining. The crowd cheers (or boos) when they're entertained. Therefore the entertainment factor of a promo is indicated how well it works on an audience. So yes, I could say Rock's promo was good. Because he hit all his points, he sold the match, he spoke in character, he got the fans to cheer him and boo Punk (and that's not to take anything away from Punk, because he more than did his part and got people to cheer Rock and boo him). And most importantly? He entertained the people. The right crowd reaction is what these wrestlers strive for when they cut promos and to ignore it in a discussion is insane. Again, just because they cheer does not make the promo good. Take away the crowd and just listen to what he says. It's not good. You seemingly only think it's good because the fans are there to cheer him on. He could just go out there and say "Punk is poopy" 30 times in a row and nothing else and they'd cheer and chant it. That does not mean it was a good promo, it means the fans have been conditioned to accept Rock's terrible promo or anyone else's childish humor. The fans cheered when AJ and Dolph got covered in crap. That does not mean it was a good segment. The crowd is not always right. Just because you can get crowd reaction does not make what you actually say any good. Conversely, you can say stuff that's good and it doesn't really matter if you don't get a crowd reaction. And while I like CM Punk, it seems like recently (i.e. the past few years) he's only good when he's doing worked shoots and he sucks on the mic when he doesn't care about the material he's working with (and then, he's not really getting Rock reactions in spite of having content that's the furthest thing away from the Rock's material). Hell, I am loathe to say this, but when Triple H said that Punk was talking in circles during their brief 2011 feud, he was right. All Punk had were ad hominem worked shoots comments that didn't sell the reality and animosity of the feud. He couldn't build to the match on the mic. Whereas the Rock at least, given his recent appearances, does care about the material he works with 100% (added by his intensity and charisma), even though when you pull on the thread of the logic of what he says it falls apart.
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Post by Non Banjoble Tokens on Jan 8, 2013 0:52:08 GMT -5
When the thing most people are talking about is a line stolen from a rap song, it's hard to be impressed. Hey now. There are worse lines Punk could've stolen from rap songs. "Rock, I'm gonna kick your ass. Cause at the Royal Rumble, you're gonna find out that I'm 2 Legit 2 Quit! "...and word to your mama, cause I like big butts and I cannot lie, and I'm an Informer, you know say daddy me snow me gonna blame, a licky boom-boom down....."*silence, Punk hangs his head and walks out of ring*
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Post by An Old Villain on Jan 8, 2013 0:52:25 GMT -5
I was kind of surprised Rock didnt go into "Billy Gunn God promo" mode after Punks line.
Punk has this way of dropping borrowed lines that works better than most. His "Im a patient boy.." Fugazi drop being my favorite of the bunch.
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Post by BiloxiParish on Jan 8, 2013 0:53:21 GMT -5
I always gauge how well a promo or match goes by my wife's reaction (she has been putting up with me being a wrestling fan for 5 years now and is in know way even a casual fan). So tonight with her half assing watching RAW with me, at the promo point she was glued to the TV hanging on every word. Laughing and even getting goose bumps.
So I think they hit home pretty good.
She was in Punks corner afterward.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,122
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Post by Arrow on Jan 8, 2013 0:55:41 GMT -5
Again, just because they cheer does not make the promo good. Take away the crowd and just listen to what he says. It's not good. I did listen to it, and I was entertained. I laughed when Rock made jokes, and I was engaged when he got serious and said that he was going to beat Punk. In other words, the promo did exactly what it was supposed to. Judging by the response, I'm far from the only one. The promo was entertaining, that's what makes it a good promo. No, I think that the fans cheered him on because it was good. This is completely untrue. We saw Rock cut a bad promo last year and get booed for it, in a city that typically despises Cena. So we know that people aren't going to automatically cheer Rock because he's The Rock. They're going to cheer him because they were entertained by his promos. Which means that the promo - which is supposed to be, above all, entertaining - was good. Who exactly said it wasn't a good segment? Because people getting covered in s*** isn't your kind of humor? If we can't use the effect of a live audience, what criteria am I supposed to use then? You still haven't answered that.
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Post by Larryhausen on Jan 8, 2013 0:55:45 GMT -5
No, I don't always agree with a crowd, but that doesn't mean that the promo sucked. It means I didn't like it. There's a vast difference between the two. Promos are meant to be entertaining. The crowd cheers (or boos) when they're entertained. Therefore the entertainment factor of a promo is indicated how well it works on an audience. So yes, I could say Rock's promo was good. Because he hit all his points, he sold the match, he spoke in character, he got the fans to cheer him and boo Punk (and that's not to take anything away from Punk, because he more than did his part and got people to cheer Rock and boo him). And most importantly? He entertained the people. The right crowd reaction is what these wrestlers strive for when they cut promos and to ignore it in a discussion is insane. Again, just because they cheer does not make the promo good. Take away the crowd and just listen to what he says. It's not good. You seemingly only think it's good because the fans are there to cheer him on. He could just go out there and say "Punk is poopy" 30 times in a row and nothing else and they'd cheer and chant it. That does not mean it was a good promo, it means the fans have been conditioned to accept Rock's terrible promo or anyone else's childish humor. The fans cheered when AJ and Dolph got covered in crap. That does not mean it was a good segment. The crowd is not always right. The content does not matter as long as it did its job. The entire point of professional wrestling is to get the live crowd to react, and judging by the way people here are acting, it did that in spades.
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Post by BiloxiParish on Jan 8, 2013 0:57:48 GMT -5
I don't see how anybody could walk away from the exchange thinking it sucked and not wanting to see the match at Royal Rumble..
That one promo was better than all the promo's Rock Cena did..
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Post by Red Impact on Jan 8, 2013 0:59:21 GMT -5
Punk has this way of dropping borrowed lines that works better than most. His "Im a patient boy.." Fugazi drop being my favorite of the bunch. He also has a way of getting generic cheap heat in a way that just works really well too. Tonight was mostly cheap heat from him, it was actually a really safe promo all things considered, but the two worked so well together that I thought it made the segment much better than either promo would have been on it's own.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 8, 2013 0:59:49 GMT -5
I think a lot of these things are way too subjective from person to person to get a definitive measure of quality. All I know is that there is no perfect blend for the perfect promo that EVERYONE likes.
The way I see it, Rock likes to trash talk and say stupid things that make little or no sense to annoy his opponent. But he makes up for that with insane, almost immeasurable charisma and delivery. Meanwhile, Punk is a lot more straightforward with what he actually says. And while he may not have the same "chant anything I say" style of charisma that Rock has, he says it with unwavering conviction, almost as if what he says is already well-known fact, not just opinion.
They complimented each other great, in my opinion, and I can't wait for more.
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Post by Urfarkendarf on Jan 8, 2013 1:01:11 GMT -5
I felt underwhelmed. Rock is probably my #1 favorite guy of all time and I felt his response to Punk was flat.
I think it will get better, but the first step was a bit eh for me. Not giving up or completely shitting on it yet.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,122
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Post by Arrow on Jan 8, 2013 1:02:07 GMT -5
The way I see it, Rock likes to say stupid things that make little or no sense to annoy his opponent. But he makes up for that with insane, almost immeasurable charisma and delivery. Meanwhile, Punk is a lot more straightforward with what he actually says. And while he may not have the same "chant anything I say" style of charisma that Rock has, he says it with unwavering conviction, almost as if what he says is already well-known fact, not just opinion. FWIW, I agree entirely with this. I just hate the idea of people treating one style (Punk's) as if it's automatically better than the other's (Rock's) just because they prefer it. Both of them have two different ways of cutting promos, and they both killed it in their own way.
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Post by slappy on Jan 8, 2013 1:08:17 GMT -5
Again, just because they cheer does not make the promo good. Take away the crowd and just listen to what he says. It's not good. I did listen to it, and I was entertained. I laughed when Rock made jokes, and I was engaged when he got serious and said that he was going to beat Punk. In other words, the promo did exactly what it was supposed to. Judging by the response, I'm far from the only one. The promo was entertaining, that's what makes it a good promo. No, I think that the fans cheered him on because it was good. This is completely untrue. We saw Rock cut a bad promo last year and get booed for it, in a city that typically despises Cena. So we know that people aren't going to automatically cheer Rock because he's The Rock. They're going to cheer him because they were entertained by his promos. Which means that the promo - which is supposed to be, above all, entertaining - was good. Who exactly said it wasn't a good segment? Because people getting covered in s*** isn't your kind of humor? If we can't use the effect of a live audience, what criteria am I supposed to use then? You still haven't answered that. Anyone else that would have said the same promo would have been torn to shreds. I know you say you rise above and give passes to the lame humor of Cena but if he had cut that promo, you would not have the same feelings as you do since the Rock cut it. Was the "bad" promo live or via satellite? John Laurinaitis is terrible promo guy according to this forum. But look at the way the crowd reacted. They booed him when he said stuff, they weren't silent at all, they reacted when he talked. I guess that makes him a pretty damn good promo guy. Who said it wasn't a good segment? Look around this forum. If I can't say something is bad because it's "not my kind of humor" when can I say something is bad? You base it on what they say. Something great can get no crowd reaction at all, that does not mean it was bad. If you like toilet humor then of course you are going to think those kind of promos are funny, entertaining and great but that does not mean I have to like it or enjoy it because you think so.
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